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Yar!
If I make an acrobatics check to jump "as far as I can" and the result of my roll is higher than I could normally move in a round, how far do I actually travel?
Do I travel as far as I can based on my normal movement and then land? Or do I travel as far as my movement will allow for the round and remain in the air to finish the distance traveled in the following round (as it was in 3.x)?
~P
Yar!
To expand: 3.x had a line that clarified what would happen if the check was higher than your movement or if you jumped at the end of you round, saying that you would continue/finish the jump in the following round. Pathfinder has no such clause. The only thing Pathfinder rules say is this: "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round".
I've seen this argued that "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement, based on how far you can move in a round" ... and I've seen it argued that "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement in the course of one round, but your single jump may in fact be longer than your maximum movement over the course of several rounds."
Yes, I did do a search of the rules forums here, and the FAQ, and I was not able to find any real consensus. Instead I found these two camps and references to how it used to work in 3.x (but again, no real answer to if it still works like that or not... just a few peoples opinions on how they do it in their games).
EDIT: a related/follow up/alternate question could be: I have a +29* modifier to my acrobatics skill... what happens when I spend a full round action to run and I initiate a long jump near the end of that action, say with 10 feet of movement left?
~P
Design Manager
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This seems a little silly. I would imagine the devs thought the "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round" clarification would be enough. This has to limit the maximum distance you can jump, otherwise you're stretching a single action out over multiple rounds. Allowing that would lead to ridiculousness like a character jumping 20 feet in the air to get out of melee range, making his attack with his bow or spell, and then safely alighting at the beginning of the next round (without benefit of a spell granting flight or levitation). That reading also destroys action economy (what action is it to make that landing on the following round?). Since a jump can't allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round, the only way that alternative works if your landing uses the next rounds move action, which again, is nonsensical and inconsistent with any other rule in the game. It would be the same as starting a full attack with your move action in round one and finishing it with your standard action in round 2, which obviously doesn't work.
Also, "Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time". If a jump would take longer than the normal amount of time for another movement, (such as stretching between 2 rounds) it's no longer a move action. Neither is it any other kind of action, meaning.... It's not legal. All actions take place within the framework of the 6 second round. Even spells that take more than 6 seconds to cast explain in their parameters (or the general parameters of spell casting) what actions they use and how. If an action doesn't match the framework, and doesn't contain specific exceptions explaining how it bridges the framework, it isn't legal, and can't be done according to the rules. Any jump that doesn't end in the same round it started (unless it's a jump off a cliff more than 500 feet tall, which there are rules for) isn't a legal action.
"Action Types
An action's type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, swift actions, immediate actions, and free actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action."
Yar.
And yet, that is exactly what many people have and still do argue IS what it means and allows.
Both camps have been using that exact same line of text as the proof for both sides of the argument.
Hence, I ask the question simply and succinctly and hit the FAQ button.
EDIT: but there is an option in the rules to start a full round action as a standard action in one round, and then finish it as a second standard action in the second round, so there actually is precedence for doing that in Pathfinder. Food for thought.
~P
Yar.
As to your edit, I counter with this:
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.
Acrobatics apparently exists outside of your list of possible actions. Jumping is itself not an action, but done as a part of other actions.
~P
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Design Manager
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Yar.
As to your edit, I counter with this:
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.Acrobatics apparently exists outside of your list of possible actions. Jumping is itself not an action, but done as a part of other actions.
~P
What action are you using to jump then? If there's no legal action to take, you can't jump as part of it.
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Design Manager
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EDIT: but there is an option in the rules to start a full round action as a standard action in one round, and then finish it as a second standard action in the second round, so there actually is precedence for doing that in Pathfinder. Food for thought.
~P
Reference please, or it doesn't exist.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Reference please, or it doesn't exist.EDIT: but there is an option in the rules to start a full round action as a standard action in one round, and then finish it as a second standard action in the second round, so there actually is precedence for doing that in Pathfinder. Food for thought.
~P
Core Rulebook, Combat chapter, section detailing various Standard Actions, bold heading that reads "Start or Complete Full-Round Action". You can't miss it.
Yar.
Combat section, just prior to the description of Total Defense. link
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
As for the action, it is as the skill says: " An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation". If I jump during a charge, it is as part of the full round action. If I'm standing around doing nothing and an earthquake hits, the check to stay standing is no action at all, it just happens. It's all situational.
EDIT: Jiggy: the 50 second ninja. :P
~P
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Design Manager
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So:
"Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The “start full-round action” standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw."
Jumping is part of a movement. The only movements that are full round actions are charge, run and withdraw. And escaping from a net, but that doesn't really have any bearing on the topic at hand. You'll notice that all 3 of those actions are specifically marked as invalid in the same section that allows actions to span rounds. So there is still no legal action you could possibly be taking to stretch your jump between rounds, so there's still no legal option to stretch a jump between rounds.
Yar.
How about my alternate question in my second post. I'll re-post it.
I have a +29* modifier to my acrobatics skill... what happens when I spend a full round action to run and I initiate a long jump near the end of that action, say with 10 feet of movement left?
Are you saying that despite the minimum horizontal distance of that jump being 30', it will mystically turn into a little 10' hop?
That doesn't seem to work with this line from the jumping section of acrobatics:
... the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump...
Nor does it make much sense.
~P
Huh. I remember this from 3.5, and when I saw the start/complete full round action I thought that WAS the quintessential example.
Suppose you have a 20 foot gap, and you start 20 feet away from this gap. You use a standard action (possibly to drink a potion of Cat's Grace) and then you make a running start, and leap to jump over the gap. But since it took 20 feet to get there, you now only have 10 feet left to move. Do you fall short, even if your acrobatics check succeeded? It makes more sense to me that you'd be in midair this round, and the next you'd finish the leap.
Edit: I got ninja'd by a Pirate. Isn't that like dividing by 0 or something?
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Design Manager
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If you can't fly, mid-air is not a legal space, so you either immediately land (put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied) or you fall.
Also this:
"Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it's not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there's a legal position that's closer."
Being in midair isn't an illegal position. It's just a potentially stupid one.
Yar.
My main concern and reason for posting the question is this:
There are two apparent camps on this matter, and it all revolves around the line "No jump can allow you to exceed your maximum movement for the round", with both camps using that same line to prove their side. At least in the previous arguments on this topic. I am glad to see different arguments coming up in this thread.
However, I will still propose that it is not as clear as it could be and may in fact be worthy of a FAQ, as the RAI is not as clear as one would initially think (especially given the fact that there are two camps on this matter. This current thread has posters presenting the opposite of what Ssalarn is presenting as the obvious truth, for example).
People ARE playing it both ways, thinking that their way is the way it is obviously presented in the RAW. But how can that be possible if it was actually clear and obvious? Wouldn't everyone interpret it the same way then? Alas, they are not, thus I say It (the RAW) is not.
EDIT for Derek Vande Brake: *laughs maniacally in the distance*
~P
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Design Manager
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Just a quick note, I did FAQ this. While I believe the answer is obvious and am doing my best to clearly make that case referencing as broad a swath of material as possible, I can see how others are coming to different conclusions, and wouldn't be adverse to an official answer to this, even if it contradicted my own stance.
I would point out that, if you strictly adhere to movement limits and don't allow for finishing jumps on the next round, then a halfling or gnome in medium armor can't possibly jump a 20' gap regardless of Acrobatics skill. Further, even in light armor, neither of them, nor a dwarf, could jump a 25' gap, regardless of Acrobatics skill.
Yar!
Good times. We're actually on the same page then. I've been in too many threads in the past where people have rallied to not get something clarified / to shut down the asking in the first place due to them thinking the question being "silly" or "obvious" and refusing to explore it further, which I find frustrating. As I said, I'm actually really glad that you have brought other arguments to this discussion not seen before on these messageboards (from my meager search, at least), rather than declaring it silly and that I should be ashamed for asking (which does happen sometimes... unfortunate, truly).
Back to the topic at hand, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the jumping near the end of one's movement, only to suddenly fall short of a distance normally easy to clear. The only reasoning I can come up with is "it's a game, not a reality simulator", but the whole "I can standing jump 15' and running jump 30', even if I roll a natural 1, but if my running start is too long, I can only jump 5' or 10' then fall to the ground" pains me.
~P
Yar.
To further expand this discussion... what exactly IS one's "maximum movement" for a round?
Is it their base speed (plus enhancements such as haste)?
Is it double the base speed (as above) for a potential double move/withdraw/charge?
Is is 4x ones base speed (as above) for the basic Run action?
Would that also then make it 5x one's base speed (as above) if they have the Run feat? (and by extension only x3 for those without the feat and encumbered)
What about Four Winds monks with the tiger aspect? They can move 10x their base speed in one round (but only once per hour)... but I would say THAT is their "maximum movement" possible.
~P
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Design Manager
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Yar.
To further expand this discussion... what exactly IS one's "maximum movement" for a round?
Is it their base speed (plus enhancements such as haste)?
Is it double the base speed (as above) for a potential double move/withdraw/charge?
Is is 4x ones base speed (as above) for the basic Run action?
Would that also then make it 5x one's base speed (as above) if they have the Run feat? (and by extension only x3 for those without the feat and encumbered)
What about Four Winds monks with the tiger aspect? They can move 10x their base speed in one round (but only once per hour)... but I would say THAT is their "maximum movement" possible.
~P
I'm actually inclined to be much more generous with "maximum movement" than with the interpretation of jumping. Maximum movement, to me, would simply be dictated by the actions you're taking. If you're jumping as part of a run (initially I said Charge but I don't see how you could do that and maintain the straight line and difficult terrain rules) your "maximum movement" to me would be 4x your base move.
Sorry for casting "animate thread", but I would like to know if this question has been clarified already. Does your jump ends on the same round you tried it or can you finish its movement on the following round?
I had the same opinion as Ssalarn, but the idea that a halfling with +100 on acrobatics could never jump through a gap of 30 feet kinda made me go towards the latter.
As a side question, your max movement for the round would depend upon which action youre using to jump? ie 30 feet for a normal movement, x4 for a jump while running?
Sorry for casting "animate thread", but I would like to know if this question has been clarified already. Does your jump ends on the same round you tried it or can you finish its movement on the following round?
I had the same opinion as Ssalarn, but the idea that a halfling with +100 on acrobatics could never jump through a gap of 30 feet kinda made me go towards the latter.
As a side question, your max movement for the round would depend upon which action youre using to jump? ie 30 feet for a normal movement, x4 for a jump while running?
Your theoretical Halfling can jump 40 feet: he can move twice in one round, so 2x20 = 40.
Sorry for casting "animate thread", but I would like to know if this question has been clarified already. Does your jump ends on the same round you tried it or can you finish its movement on the following round?
I had the same opinion as Ssalarn, but the idea that a halfling with +100 on acrobatics could never jump through a gap of 30 feet kinda made me go towards the latter.
As a side question, your max movement for the round would depend upon which action youre using to jump? ie 30 feet for a normal movement, x4 for a jump while running?
Your theoretical Halfling can jump 40 feet: he can move twice in one round, so 2x20 = 40.
I guess this answers my other question, that your max movement for the round depends on which action youre using to jump (double movement on that case).
On the thread subject, what is the general consensus? Continue the jump on the next round, or that jump finishes on the same round it started?
Speed
If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a "double move" action), you can move up to double your speed. If you spend the entire round running, you can move up to quadruple your speed (or triple if you are in heavy armor).
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can’t use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
Run
You can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.
It is clear that your max move, baring penalties or bonuses, is 4X your speed.
Since a jump is part of a move action, you can make a jump as part of a full round action (FRA). Per p186, you can split a FRA across the round's boundary. You want to jump 100'? If it is more that the movement left in this round, you need to use a split FRA. If you already used your standard, you cannot do this.
As to the idea of jumping into the next round and using your current height to allow ranged attack, that would require something like* Flyby Attack or Shot on the Run, or Spring Attack. Otherwise, you need to complete the FRA before taking your next action, by which time you have spent your standard.
*None of these actually work due to the wording on the feat, but I would be happy to house rule it as OK.
/cevah
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Design Manager
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Cevah, I had pointed out earlier in the thread that the splitting a FRA shouldn't apply here. That has specific notes on the type of actions you can't split up, and all of the actions you could be using to exceed your base speed for the round are listed as not being "splittable" actions.
*facepalm*
I even quoted the text. :-/
Well, I would still house rule it OK in my games, but you are right. It would not be RAW.
Still begs the question of jumping when you have 10' of movement left, with a roll allowing a 70' jump. Guess that is more house rule territory.
/cevah
I think something was missed on the discussion (I skimmed so might have not noticed)
Your jump roll determines if you can make an already set dc it determines if you make the check not how far you can go.
As jumping is part of another action that action woukd determine if you can even attempt the jump.
If I have a monk with 90 feet of movement I've already double oved 170 feet and have 10 feet of movement left. I tell my dm I want to jump 70 feet. The em says no because I have 10 feet of movement left.
If I have 90 move and tell the dm I'm jumping 20 feet tuen roll an 80 I jump... 20 feet.
Again you tell the dm where your jumping to he sets the dc then you roll. Jumping at no point changes the movement allowance of the movement being used.
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Whether a character is running, double moving or just jumping during a single move, I rule that, if the result of the Acrobatics check would put the character in mid-air at the end of their turn, then the jump takes place immediately at the beginning of their next turn. It's still part of a charge, run, withdraw, etc. that counts against the character's actions normally and the character still gets to apply the 10-foot running start or other movement-related effects to the jump if any, but their previous turn ends with them just about to make the jump.
Maybe it isn't how the skill is intended to work, but it seems to work out okay. The character might get shorted some of their movement for the turn leading up to the jump but, this way, I don't run into characters ending their turns in mid air. As mentioned upthread, a character goes to the last legal place they could be if they would wind up in an illegal square and this seems to mirror that rule.
Also, I suspect other GMs play it this way too, but I say the result of the roll is how far a character may jump. While it's believable that it could happen, I don't make a player overshoot the distance they want to jump. For instance, someone jumping over a series of 10-foot wide ditches with only a 2-foot space between each ditch doesn't have to land in the second one if they roll higher than a 12. They can if they want to, but I won't make them because an obstacle like that would otherwise require the player to roll exactly an 11 or 12 on every roll.
The problem velcrozipper is that you can normally only spread specific full round actions over multiple rounds. And run and withdraw are not in that group. So why would an exception be made for jumping?
Look you cannot jump past your current movement in pf. What you are trying to do sets your movement limit and thus the jump.
My monk with 90 feet of movement can jump 180 feet from a stand still if he can make the 180 dc. Or 360ft as part of a run action. But if they use part of their move that limits their jumping. Because what ou roll on the dice for jump is not ehat determines your distance. It just says wether you succed or fail and fall half way.
Your jump roll determines if you can make an already set dc it determines if you make the check not how far you can go.
Ummmm.... No.
For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone).
/cevah
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The problem velcrozipper is that you can normally only spread specific full round actions over multiple rounds. And run and withdraw are not in that group. So why would an exception be made for jumping?
Look you cannot jump past your current movement in pf. What you are trying to do sets your movement limit and thus the jump.
My monk with 90 feet of movement can jump 180 feet from a stand still if he can make the 180 dc. Or 360ft as part of a run action. But if they use part of their move that limits their jumping. Because what ou roll on the dice for jump is not ehat determines your distance. It just says wether you succed or fail and fall half way.
Like I said, what I do might not be the concrete RAW, but it works out really well for my game.
When somebody is running or moving, they don't suddenly stop every 40 or 60 or 80 or however many feet every six seconds (unless they're in terrible shape I guess.) Likewise, if a character chooses to jump during a run or a move, the rules say they can't jump further than their move and I'm not going to rule that somebody hits an invisible wall and drops into whatever square they're above at the end of their turn because that's dumb.
By saying the jumper's turn ends in the square they are jumping from, the character still gets to make the jump they want to make and land right where they want to land. The way I imagine it, the character is still moving even if their turn ends before they make the jump. Where they end the turn just happens to be the space they are moving through at that specific point in time. I get to satisfy the jumping/moving rule and the character still gets to jump where they want to jump. If they want to jump on the same turn they announce the move, they have to ensure the distance they want to jump is within their movement for one turn.
Say a character with 30ft speed and a +40 Acrobatics wants to jump over a 40-foot pit after making an attack. She's only got 5 feet of running room to the edge of the pit and she's already taken a standard action. By RAW, even if she rolls a 20 for a successful total of 81, the character can't make the jump because 45 feet is greater than her 30-foot move speed. You have three options. (1) Hang the character in midair for that split second in between rounds and let her finish her landing next round counting the remaining distance against her movement for the round, (2) send the character into the pit because her Acrobatics check turned into a pumpkin at the end of her turn or (3) don't let her make the check until her next turn when she'll have enough movement to clear 45 feet.
Option 2 is dumb, but I've used options 1 and 3 and both work well. I've never seen anything that says "in the air" is an illegal space so I don't think there's anything actually wrong with Option 1, and it can even lead to some pretty dramatic moments. I'm just using option 3 right now because, like I said, it's simple and it works for me. I never said my way is the intent of the rules. Just that, in practice, my players and I haven't had any problems with it.