Does Ray of Enfeeblement still affect encumbrance?


Rules Questions


ROE wrote:
A coruscating ray springs from your hand. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike a target. The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). The subject's Strength score cannot drop below 1. A successful Fortitude save reduces this penalty by half. This penalty does not stack with itself. Apply the highest penalty instead.

No problem so far. The effect is straightforward, the spell imposes a penalty to Strength. But...

Glossary wrote:
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.

If penalties function like damage (rather than drain), then it wouldn't reduce the score. Rather, for every two points of penalty, you take a -1 to derived checks.

Since the penalty doesn't change your actual strength, then, your carrying capacity also shouldn't change. Am I correct?


You are correct. Only an actual reduction to your ability score would give you those problems.


it changes your str for the duration of the spell as a temporary thing...with the loss of str your carrying capacity will also drop for that duration. its the same as when you use rage, your con increases and therefor your hp and saves...at least thats how I've always seen it.

Only stipulation is you can't use it to completely drop them to 0 where they will be dead, unconscious or paralyzed in essence.


Hzardus wrote:

it changes your str for the duration of the spell as a temporary thing...with the loss of str your carrying capacity will also drop for that duration. its the same as when you use rage, your con increases and therefor your hp and saves...at least thats how I've always seen it.

Only stipulation is you can't use it to completely drop them to 0 where they will be dead, unconscious or paralyzed in essence.

Ability penalties work like ability damage, according to the rules. And the effects of Strength damage are:

Quote:
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Absolutely nothing about affecting encumbrance. So therefore, as wrong as it seems, neither Strength damage nor Strength penalties will reduce your carrying capacity.

Only Strength drain will reduce your carrying capacities.

Note this only applies to Pathfinder. 3.5 D&D strength ability damage and penalties worked differently. (Also note that in Pathfinder, a raging barbarian doesn't have his carrying capacities increased either. Only permanent Strength increases will do that.)


table 7-4 page 171 core rulebook lists the carrying capacity by strength and lists the light/medium/heavy load. And the ability score damage portion also states that it lowers the skills and statistics (which along with damage, encumberance is a statistic). (yes it says for every 2 points lower them by 1...)

If ray decreases your strength (making you weaker) why wouldn't it effect the carrying capacity.

Just for arguments sake, this is saying that I can barely pick up a sword and swing it, yet I can run around with 150 lbs of gear at medium load (str 16 approx)? This one seems broken. No it doesn't specify it specifically that it lowers it, but to me this is the common sense factor...but ultimately the GM's discretion. This one might need developer insight.

Edit:And the ability drain is the same as the ability damage in everything except that its permanent (minus restoration spells) and can also drop you to zero.


This does bring up a subsidiary question - how do penalties and damage stack? For example, if I take a -5 penalty and have 3 strength damage, do I take a -3 (-2 penalty/-1 damage) or a -4 (because of the -8 combined) to checks?


Hzardus wrote:

table 7-4 page 171 core rulebook lists the carrying capacity by strength and lists the light/medium/heavy load. And the ability score damage portion also states that it lowers the skills and statistics (which along with damage, encumberance is a statistic). (yes it says for every 2 points lower them by 1...)

If ray decreases your strength (making you weaker) why wouldn't it effect the carrying capacity.

Just for arguments sake, this is saying that I can barely pick up a sword and swing it, yet I can run around with 150 lbs of gear at medium load (str 16 approx)? This one seems broken. No it doesn't specify it specifically that it lowers it, but to me this is the common sense factor...but ultimately the GM's discretion. This one might need developer insight.

Edit:And the ability drain is the same as the ability damage in everything except that its permanent (minus restoration spells) and can also drop you to zero.

Ray of Enfeeblement does not decrease your strength.

The rules call out the differences between what a penalty does and what an actual decrease in your ability scores do.

Quote:
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.

That is all it does. It says nothing about carrying capacity. You need to actually lower the score before that is affected.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:
This does bring up a subsidiary question - how do penalties and damage stack? For example, if I take a -5 penalty and have 3 strength damage, do I take a -3 (-2 penalty/-1 damage) or a -4 (because of the -8 combined) to checks?

They should stack. You are being affected by different sources.


Can't find anything about that..the difference is damage can lower you to 0...where penalty can't...and drain is of course permanent so I would say that stacks.


you are actually decreasing your score, just not permanently, its a temporary decrease in score, and it does state that statistics do change. Which carrying capacity is a statistic, it is there in the rules as well, page 555 of the core rulebook very first paragraph of the ability damage section. And it doesn't say anything about only permanent damage drain being the only way to reduce it.

The only thing it specifies is that ability drain is permanent unless cured...ability damage can drop you to zero and you can heal it with rest, and penalty can't drop you to zero and is only temperary (spell length Ray of enfeeblement 1 round per lvl)


Hzardus wrote:

you are actually decreasing your score, just not permanently, its a temporary decrease in score, and it does state that statistics do change. Which carrying capacity is a statistic, it is there in the rules as well, page 555 of the core rulebook very first paragraph of the ability damage section. And it doesn't say anything about only permanent damage drain being the only way to reduce it.

The only thing it specifies is that ability drain is permanent unless cured...ability damage can drop you to zero and you can heal it with rest, and penalty can't drop you to zero and is only temperary (spell length Ray of enfeeblement 1 round per lvl)

Neither ability damage nor ability penalties change the score at all. You just take penalties to a few things. If you have 18 strength, and take 10 strength damage, you still have 18 strength.

While it does state that "statistics based on that ability" are changed, it continues further and details just what statistics are changed. Carrying capacity is not one of them. Temporary changes in Strength do not, by RAW, change your carrying capacity. Only permanent changes (which result from ability drain, not damage or penalty) do so, because it very specifically says all statistics of the relevant ability change.


Sorry all, read it more closely...it does say those listed...still think its broken that you can have a 1 str after damage and still be able to move in full plate and extra gear but you can't swing your sword without hitting the ground. And that wisdom doesn't affect monk ac. (damage)


Hzardus wrote:

you are actually decreasing your score, just not permanently, its a temporary decrease in score, and it does state that statistics do change. Which carrying capacity is a statistic, it is there in the rules as well, page 555 of the core rulebook very first paragraph of the ability damage section. And it doesn't say anything about only permanent damage drain being the only way to reduce it.

The only thing it specifies is that ability drain is permanent unless cured...ability damage can drop you to zero and you can heal it with rest, and penalty can't drop you to zero and is only temperary (spell length Ray of enfeeblement 1 round per lvl)

The score is NOT changing with a penalty. Only ability drain decreases your score. That is in the book.

Here you go.

prd wrote:
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
PRD wrote:
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.

The penalty from strength which I quoted from the PRD in my last post only affects what it says it affects.

This is in the glossary section of the CRB also.

edit: I see you have read it, but I will leave it here for others.


ya look up admitted defeat, word play got me. And its the second paragraph that actually clinches it "for every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a -1 penalty ot skills and statistics (b)LISTED(/b) with the relevant ability.


Hzardus wrote:

Sorry all, read it more closely...it does say those listed...still think its broken that you can have a 1 str after damage and still be able to move in full plate and extra gear but you can't swing your sword without hitting the ground. And that wisdom doesn't affect monk ac. (damage)

You are right in that it is broken. It doesn't make sense that a kitten can hit harder then you, but you can still lift hundreds of pounds easily. However, as this is the "Rules Questions" forum, then the rules-correct answer needs to be given. Even if it doesn't make much sense.

There are also other problems. For instance, with Dexterity damage or penalty:

Quote:
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

It only lowers ranged attack rolls. So if you are attacking with Weapon Finesse, your attack rolls aren't penalized. Similarly, a Cat's Grace spell or other temporary Dexterity bonus won't increase attack rolls when using Weapon Finesse. Though Strength bonuses or penalties do changes your normal, non-finessed melee attack rolls.

For that matter, as strength damage says it gives a penalty to melee attack rolls, but doesn't limit it to Strength-based melee attack rolls, then you would take the penalty even if attacking with Weapon Finesse and not using your Strength at all. In the same way, a Strength bonus would improve you attack rolls when using Weapon Finesse.


Jeraa wrote:


Quote:
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

I never noticed that, but I hope no player ever tries to tell me that a general rule not accounting for a feat will get him a free pass.


yet he can still have his encumberance (devil smile)


As much as it doesn't make sense, I am quite glad that it doesn't affect carrying capacity. Having to determine a character's carrying capacity and see if they are encumbered and then add the effects of encumbrance each time I take strength damage sounds super annoying. A small sacrifice in verisimilitude for a noticeable increase in ease of play is worth it in my book.

Also, I am with wraithstrike on how I would adjudicate dexterity damage and weapon finessed attack rolls.


Daethor wrote:

As much as it doesn't make sense, I am quite glad that it doesn't affect carrying capacity. Having to determine a character's carrying capacity and see if they are encumbered and then add the effects of encumbrance each time I take strength damage sounds super annoying. A small sacrifice in verisimilitude for a noticeable increase in ease of play is worth it in my book.

Also, I am with wraithstrike on how I would adjudicate dexterity damage and weapon finessed attack rolls.

Well, one of the reasons I wanted to know is that I'm creating a character sheet on Google Docs. Since it is basically a spreadsheet, I can program it to calculate carrying capacity and encumbrance effects for me, so taking strength drain (or gaining permanent boosts) is done rapidly.


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wraithstrike wrote:
Jeraa wrote:


Quote:
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
I never noticed that, but I hope no player ever tries to tell me that a general rule not accounting for a feat will get him a free pass.

The flip side is that Str damage still reduces his melee attack rolls, Weapon Finesse notwithstanding. If he's going to pick nits....


The answer is, I believe, yes it does. I'll find the citation later.


So, this is what I have marked down as meaning strength penalties affects carrying capacity


He said it makes sense to apply it just like he says other things makes sense, but that is different than him saying "the rules are intended to work this way".

Now if he chimes in and says that is RAI then we need to ask the should we treat penalties just like an actual drop in the ability score for the purpose of determining what gets reduced.


The post above that is the result of a talk between the Design team about what should and should not be affected, which I take to mean RAI.

Quote:

(1) It should affect DCs based on that ability score modifier.

(2) It should affect rolls modified by that ability score modifier, such as Str mod affecting melee attack rolls and Wis mod affecting Will saves.
(3) It should not affect abilities that treat an ability score modifier as a "consumable." In this context, a "consumable" is one where your number of uses per round/day/week/whatever is based on the ability score or its modifier, such as channel energy uses per day, wizard school abilities usable {Int bonus} per day, bardic performance rounds per day, barbarian rage rounds per day, and so on.

Since it's more important that you avoid (3) than keep (1) and (2), I take that to mean that carrying capacity should be affected.


Jeraa wrote:

There are also other problems. For instance, with Dexterity damage or penalty:

Quote:
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

It only lowers ranged attack rolls. So if you are attacking with Weapon Finesse, your attack rolls aren't penalized. Similarly, a Cat's Grace spell or other temporary Dexterity bonus won't increase attack rolls when using Weapon Finesse. Though Strength bonuses or penalties do changes your normal, non-finessed melee attack rolls.

For that matter, as strength damage says it gives a penalty to melee attack rolls, but doesn't limit it to Strength-based melee attack rolls, then you would take the penalty even if attacking with Weapon Finesse and not using your Strength at all. In the same way, a Strength bonus would improve you attack rolls when using Weapon Finesse.

Don't read the rules too literally and without appropriate interpretation. Keep in mind that, normally, only strength affects melee attack rolls and only dexterity affects ranged attack rolls. Thus the rules on strength and dexterity damage are written with those rules in mind. But feats change those rules for the characters who have taken them and your interpretation of the stat damages and what they affect needs to change accordingly for those characters.

Liberty's Edge

The change to Ability bonuses and penalties & damage is one of the things I really dislike about Pathfinder as it just causes lots of "WFT?!" moments (especially when it interacts with other rules).

For example A Dex 18 character wearing Chainmail (Max Dex Bonus of +2) has an AC of 18 (10 + 2 of his Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail).

If that character suffers a -4 Dexterity penalty, he suffers a -2 penalty to Dexterity skill checks, ability checks etc [i]and AC[/]. So in PF that character ends up with an AC of 16 (10 + 2 of his Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail -2 for the 4 points of Dexterity penalty).

However if that character had instead taken 4 points of Dexterity damage (not penalty) his Dexterity of 18 (+4) would have become 14 (+2) and his AC would have remained at 18 (10 + 2 for his reduced Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail).

Although I believe the designers intended that the change to Ability Penalties and Damage would make tracking those changes easier, it IMHO actually causes more issues than it solves.


DigitalMage wrote:

The change to Ability bonuses and penalties & damage is one of the things I really dislike about Pathfinder as it just causes lots of "WFT?!" moments (especially when it interacts with other rules).

For example A Dex 18 character wearing Chainmail (Max Dex Bonus of +2) has an AC of 18 (10 + 2 of his Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail).

If that character suffers a -4 Dexterity penalty, he suffers a -2 penalty to Dexterity skill checks, ability checks etc [i]and AC[/]. So in PF that character ends up with an AC of 16 (10 + 2 of his Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail -2 for the 4 points of Dexterity penalty).

However if that character had instead taken 4 points of Dexterity damage (not penalty) his Dexterity of 18 (+4) would have become 14 (+2) and his AC would have remained at 18 (10 + 2 for his reduced Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail).

Although I believe the designers intended that the change to Ability Penalties and Damage would make tracking those changes easier, it IMHO actually causes more issues than it solves.

I think you meant drain instead of damage, but you are right - that is bizarre.


I think he meant damage.
In 3.5 both ability damage and ability drain lowered your score. The difference was that ability damage healed naturally, but drain was permanent unless you found magical help.


wraithstrike wrote:

I think he meant damage.

In 3.5 both ability damage and ability drain lowered your score. The difference was that ability damage healed naturally, but drain was permanent unless you found magical help.

But he's talking about PF rules, not 3.5 rules.


DigitalMage wrote:

The change to Ability bonuses and penalties & damage is one of the things I really dislike about Pathfinder as it just causes lots of "WFT?!" moments (especially when it interacts with other rules).

For example A Dex 18 character wearing Chainmail (Max Dex Bonus of +2) has an AC of 18 (10 + 2 of his Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail).

If that character suffers a -4 Dexterity penalty, he suffers a -2 penalty to Dexterity skill checks, ability checks etc [i]and AC[/]. So in PF that character ends up with an AC of 16 (10 + 2 of his Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail -2 for the 4 points of Dexterity penalty).

However if that character had instead taken 4 points of Dexterity damage (not penalty) his Dexterity of 18 (+4) would have become 14 (+2) and his AC would have remained at 18 (10 + 2 for his reduced Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail).

Although I believe the designers intended that the change to Ability Penalties and Damage would make tracking those changes easier, it IMHO actually causes more issues than it solves.

I never noticed that about dex. I will be ignoring it, and treating it like temporary drain. It works better that way. Now they would have meant it "possibly" lowers your dex, but it is not even close to being written that way.


Derek Vande Brake wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

I think he meant damage.

In 3.5 both ability damage and ability drain lowered your score. The difference was that ability damage healed naturally, but drain was permanent unless you found magical help.
But he's talking about PF rules, not 3.5 rules.

True...I saw him mention the word change, and got confused. Bah.

Verdant Wheel

Wow, i am really astonished by these turn of events. But i guess i will keep playing like a iave been before.

Liberty's Edge

Doh! Yes, a typo, I meant drain, not damage, so that fourth paragraphe should have read:

DigitalMage wrote:
However if that character had instead taken 4 points of Dexterity drain(not penalty) his Dexterity of 18 (+4) would have become 14 (+2) and his AC would have remained at 18 (10 + 2 for his reduced Dex Bonus + 6 for chainmail).

Sorry for the confusion!


So let me make sure I understand.

If you're a halfling trapped under a barbell you can't lift, and someone casts Strength-buffing spells until you're as strong as a titan... you still can't lift the barbell. But instead you can bend the bar much easier or smash down an iron door, just not pick it up.

Increasing your Dex won't let you take additional Attack of Opportunity with Combat Reflexes?

Also, boosts to Wisdom won't increase damage from spiritual weapon

Increasing your Wisdom does not help you defend against a Feint in combat, unless you have a rank in Sense Motive, then it does?


Pizza Lord wrote:

So let me make sure I understand.

If you're a halfling trapped under a barbell you can't lift, and someone casts Strength-buffing spells until you're as strong as a titan... you still can't lift the barbell. But instead you can bend the bar much easier or smash down an iron door, just not pick it up.

Increasing your Dex won't let you take additional Attack of Opportunity with Combat Reflexes?

Also, boosts to Wisdom won't increase damage from spiritual weapon

Increasing your Wisdom does not help you defend against a Feint in combat, unless you have a rank in Sense Motive, then it does?

I believe the last one does work, since Sense Motive is a skill that can be used untrained, but for the rest... yep, pretty much according to strict RAW. Though, as Cheapy noted, this may not be RAI, and it is certainly viable to houserule them.


Pizza Lord that is correct by the rules. You have to maintain an ability increase for 24 hours before it becomes permanent.

edit: That last one I am not sure of.


Feint wrote:
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher.

Looks like it only applies if they have training in Sense Motive specifically, and then, it only helps if the SM bonus (including the Wis boost) is higher than your normal Wis bonus + BAB.

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