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So I'm looking to make a kitsune caster and I want to take the fox shape feat and just stay a fox most of the time but I have the problem that I can't speak while a fox.
So I'm trying to find a way around that. I know druids just take the natural spell feat. to bad other casters cant take that
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Yea, right now the only way to do it is to be a druid.
Alternatively, you could just use Silent and Still Spell metamagic feats, or use something that emulates them like an Arcane Trickster's Tricky Spells ability, but none of those will work very well except for in emergencies.
You could also play a Deaf Oracle so you at least don't have to use Silent Spell.
Personally, I'm hoping that at some point Paizo comes out with another racial trait for kitsunes which gives them something similar to 'natural spell', because if there is any race that should be skilled at casting spells in any form it should be the kitsune.
Being a druid doesn'T allow you to cast in your Kitsune fox shape either. Natural Spell only works with Wild Shape.
Being a druid doesn'T allow you to cast in your Kitsune fox shape either. Natural Spell only works with Wild Shape.
Right, but you can pretend that the wild shape is your fox shape. If you have wild shape, you probably aren't going to bother taking the fox shape feat anyway.
Your GM may house-rule that your kitsune Fox Shape counts as a wild shape for the purposes of the feat. However, it's up to hir. Since this is in the Advice forum, not the Rules forum, I would advise making that argument -- since you're willing to invest a feat into it, and druids can do it, it's not exactly overpowered. I did something exactly like this in a home game.
Unless you want to take advantage of the convenient at will transformation (super useful in dungeons where you might want to transform back to humanoid to loot and then go fox again to meld all the heavy stuff into your form)
Your GM may house-rule that your kitsune Fox Shape counts as a wild shape for the purposes of the feat. However, it's up to hir. Since this is in the Advice forum, not the Rules forum, I would advise making that argument -- since you're willing to invest a feat into it, and druids can do it, it's not exactly overpowered. I did something exactly like this in a home game.
I would do that but, I'm playing this character in Society. So, I can't make the argument, sense rule are not flexible... Sadly
Unless you want to take advantage of the convenient at will transformation (super useful in dungeons where you might want to transform back to humanoid to loot and then go fox again to meld all the heavy stuff into your form)
I just let the barbarian be the pack mule XD
Nothing anywhere actually says you can't speak in Fox Shape. That text only exists specifically in the description of Wild Shape, which you aren't using. Not in the Fox Shape feat, not in the Beast Shape spells.
Fox shape This ability otherwise functions as beast shape II, and your ability scores change accordingly.
Beast shape: School transmutation (polymorph);
Polymorph: While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon
Now, while that closes the "it doesn't technically say i can't talk in fox form" loophole, it opens up an entirely different loophole where the polymorph section says that the natural spell feat will work with the polymorph effect despite the polymorph effect not being wildshape.
(I only engage in this level of rules lawyering because I think the natural spell feat SHOULD work for this)
You could just play a petitioner of Nirvana who is permanently in fox form because he is a fox, and who is able to speak normally.
You could play an awakened fox who has caster levels and is able to speak somehow.
You could be an Inari kitsune, and just be able to do it by default, but remember this is just dipping into Shinto mythos now.
You can argue that since you can cast spells in Kitsune form that you are already proficient with speaking with a fox-like head, and therefore you are able to speak normally in fox-form.
This is the area that is open to interpretation by the DM.
One aspect that might work is you have to make a concentration check (10%?) each time you cast a spell in fox form.
Nothing anywhere actually says you can't speak in Fox Shape. That text only exists specifically in the description of Wild Shape, which you aren't using. Not in the Fox Shape feat, not in the Beast Shape spells.
A designer has covered the "if it doesn't say you cannot" argument with, "Nowhere in the Fighter's description does it say he cannot cast a 10d6 fireball at-will unlimited times per day."
In short it is a logical fallacy, and is a trap.
[ . . . ]I'm playing this character in Society. [ . . .]
You are playing in, ugh, PFS? Well, kiss all your hopes and dreams goodbye, you are playing by their rules. You are not allowed to be cool, and the Rule of Cool is not allowed in any way shape or form, just generic stuff.
ALL of my above suggestions are worth nothing in PFS. In short, you are screwed.
Your best bet is swift shape changer, so your shape-change turns into a swift, and then Move: Human/Kitsune, Standard: Cast spell, Swift: Fox form.
You MIGHT be able to argue that you instead spend a full round action casting a standard so you don't have to say, "Move, human form, I cast [spell], swift, fox form!"
If you want to house-rule it, sure.
Officially, you're hosed.
Generally, I've found the 'can't talk while shapechanging' thing to be both silly and a bigger pain than it's worth. You're changing your shape, just leave yourself a functioning set of vocal cords.
Here's one to thrown into the mix;
If you take a level of Druid and take the feat Natural Spell (i.e. mulit-class)[ . . . ]
You need the Wild Shape Class Feature, you gain that class feature at level 4 of the druid class. If you can find an archetype that gives it at level 1 then it is valid.
[ . . . ]Bat Shaman get's Wild Shape at level 2 [ . . . .]
They do not, they get a polymorph they can use. For the totem shamans actual wildshape comes at level 6, hence making it even farther away.
Totem Transformation (Su)
At 2nd level, an ape shaman may adopt an aspect of the ape while retaining her normal form[ . . . .]
This is a polymorph effect and cannot be used while the druid is using another polymorph effect, such as wild shape.
The "totem transformation" works the same for all the <animal> Shamans.
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Yea, right now the only way to do it is to be a druid.
I'm not sure how you can say that in natural form Kitsune cannot speak or cast spells.
The Kitsune description says they are "fox folk" and while in native form they are an "anthropomorphic fox." Check out anthropomorphic animal spell. There it talks about being able to speak one language as well as being bipedal and having opposable digits in two limbs to manipulate fine objects.
If this isn't enough, think about any of the Ratfolk Magus characters running around (I've seen a few out here in SoCal). If Kitsune, who are fox folk, can't cast while in that form, then Ratfolk shouldn't be able to either by that logic.
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Sorry to necro, guys, but I'm interested in this topic too and I cannot un-notice that all of you have focused only on the verbal components, totally neglecting the somatic ones.
This is what the rules say about somatic components:
Somatic: A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand.
In general, animals don't have hands, and cannot cast spells with somatic components. Some specific animals in the bestiary don't have hands either but can cast. They are exceptions covered by their specific entry in the bestiary.
Foxes aren't among them, and since they don't have hands, they can't cast spell with somatic components without Still spell, even with a Ring of Eloquence.
Am I missing something?
Have you considered taking a Psychic casting class? They don't require Somantic or Verbal components :)
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Sorry to necro, guys, but I'm interested in this topic too and I cannot un-notice that all of you have focused only on the verbal components, totally neglecting the somatic ones.
This is what the rules say about somatic components:
Somatic: A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand.In general, animals don't have hands, and cannot cast spells with somatic components. Some specific animals in the bestiary don't have hands either but can cast. They are exceptions covered by their specific entry in the bestiary.
Foxes aren't among them, and since they don't have hands, they can't cast spell with somatic components without Still spell, even with a Ring of Eloquence.
Am I missing something?
There's a number of good echantment spells i particular with only Verbal components, and kitsune are good at enchantment. If you're using psychic magic, the ring of eloquence will still be useful to talk to the party and to use language-dependent spells.
There's a number of good echantment spells i particular with only Verbal components, and kitsune are good at enchantment. If you're using psychic magic, the ring of eloquence will still be useful to talk to the party and to use language-dependent spells.Sorry to necro, guys, but I'm interested in this topic too and I cannot un-notice that all of you have focused only on the verbal components, totally neglecting the somatic ones.
This is what the rules say about somatic components:
Somatic: A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand.In general, animals don't have hands, and cannot cast spells with somatic components. Some specific animals in the bestiary don't have hands either but can cast. They are exceptions covered by their specific entry in the bestiary.
Foxes aren't among them, and since they don't have hands, they can't cast spell with somatic components without Still spell, even with a Ring of Eloquence.
Am I missing something?
'Gunnar? I'm pretty sure that fox there is telling me to go buy some wine for us.' 'Smart fox.' 'I'VE BEEN YELLING AT YOU FOR FIVE MINUTES!'
