I've got a grid mat and on one half of it, I plot the positioning on the X, Y axes and on the other half the Z axis. When this has come up, it doesn't turn out to be that complicated in practice.
I tend to go more free form and cinematic with underwater combat but I do have a mat I pull out every once and a while to plot combat kinda like Shaun does.
Cinematic just feels more appropriate since the two main focuses for underwater combat are killing what you are fighting and not running out of air, usually. I just try and make sure players don't take too many unusual actions that wouldn't normally be allowed in combat per turn with cinematic.
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Normal map with inch grids on table and stacks of coins under the minis, each coin is 5ft. Take out or add as they move up and down.
Conceptually it is not that different than aerial combat. When a character or monster is flying we put it on a die with each number representing 10'. Can't see how much difference underwater combat would be.
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Normal map with inch grids on table and stacks of coins under the minis, each coin is 5ft. Take out or add as they move up and down.ooh. that is neat. i'll grab some checkers pieces to see if that works well.
Poker chips work well for this too, particularly the ones with ridged edges that interlock.
we use clear plastic cubes that dice come in. The side and then upright gives two different distances at least. Usually anything above that is just notated.
pokerchips = idea stolen. Should work equally nice for many aerial fights
pokerchips = idea stolen. Should work equally nice for many aerial fights
That too.... denoting aerial height was actually the first thing we used them for. A stack will support a 25mm figure nicely, but larger monsters can get tippy. In that case, just keep the stack next to the mini to show the height (or depth) the figure is at.
Steal away! ;D
you could always use the GameMastery-Figure-Flight-Stands
Biggest issue with those flight stands is they are made for round bases and most of my minis do not. I don't care for plastic minis.
I'd rather stick with poker chips : cheaper and far easier to use with large flying models ( such as a metal chimera or something like a plastic dragon, some demons/devils)....plus, I don't see chips breaking if transported.
Nevermind that by using different coloured poker chips, one, can easily introduce stuff like concealment etc. Overall, seeing the number of scheduled underwater fights in the "normal" AP, plus some airborne attacks and given my own advanced planning for it.... yeah, getting another set of chips might be wise (looking at AP#3).
Just wondering though... do you measure depth from the surface, or from the bottom ? I do feel a tendency to scale down from the surface...
That's a good question, Im thinking it could become problematic in AP 3 due to the varying degrees of depth between the players and the monsters.
AP 1 was easy as it was only 50 odd feet I think and my players entered from the cavern floor hence I used the floor as the base for depth going up to the surface.
Once you hit part 3 you have players decending a long way down and monsters rising from the depths to meet them. I have to admit im not sure, I personally would go from the floor to the surface as it seems easier when it comes to combat as most of the encounters are closer to the foor than the surface.
I'm measuring from surface of water.
In doing so, I also avoid giving away information on the depth of water. In some cases, this is unknown, and could be important.
This is quite true BzAli,
I can see it working but what happens when they reach bottom in the rift, I can't recall but I think it was 150 ft ish depth or more. If you are using 5ft chips that's a darn lot of chips for each player and monster will end up being jenga instead lol. Would you switch then show bottom to surface to make it easier?
I guess it is situational. FASB divides the water into zones for simplicities sake. Not sure I am going to use that, but it is worth considering or at least a modified version. You could say use what zone they are in and then use the distance up or down between creatures.
That makes sense
I would definitely count "down" from the surface for most encounters.
If a case arises where there are considerable differences in depths that various creatures are at, use the different colored chips to represent multiples of depth to avoid overstacking. (Each white chip = 5 feet of depth, each red chip = 10 feet, each blue chip = 20 feet, and so on.)
You could reverse this in a situation where the encounter is taking place near the seafloor (as at the Brine Banshee wreck) in which case you'd treat it like a normal surface encounter with flying creatures.
Keep in mind also that visibility underwater should be limited, so while creatures are out of visibility range of the PCs their relative depths are irrelevant to the tactical setup and probably shouldn't even be on the table (although the DM obviously needs to keep track of their locations).
Now all I have to do is figure out where the wife hid my poker chips!
probably going to set an artificial ceiling for deep sea combat (say a 100' baseline.. or whatever is convenient).... gonna use one set of chips for those participants above said line, and another for those below... should give a decent range of attitudes without stacks becoming too large. now I only need some way to deal with kelp forests, currents and mudcoudsˆˆ
If you have young children in the house. Personally I haven't had any Legos for over 40 years.
@deathbydice There is a chart on water pressures by race that should keep them from going too low. Just found it, it is in Dead Man's Chest by Necromancer Games. For them dainty elves it is 300'. Even with that they will still be taking damage:
Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure.
@deathbydice There is a chart on water pressures by race that should keep them from going too low. Just found it, it is in Dead Man's Chest by Necromancer Games. For them dainty elves it is 300'. Even with that they will still be taking damage:Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure.I know about the "damage by depth" problems and the 100' "line" was thrown in mostly as an example. But fights like the one near the
Spoiler:are so far below the surface, some artificial horizon is needed or seriously large stacks of chips will clog the table and hamper movement. And of course, cold resistances do apply. There is even some "deep water" diving magic to be found in the Razor Coast setting.aboleth's ship
That's why Im thinking once things get too deep switch from bottom to top instead once the players get near the bottom. Only thing is it may cause confusion but then you have the same problem either way you decide to do it. Its a tough one.
That's the way im going to try it anyway. Go with the surface to bottom for the first 100-150ft then switch to bottom to top once you get to the depths of the rift and things.
Oh and if you havn't thought of it and have the spare cash, aquraium shops do some fantasic underwater weeds and scenary (they also double up as alien plant life if you are doing a sci-fi game).
I have seen them deathbydice. Hopefully the players will get access to them.
@ferrinwulf This is why I am thinking of doing it by zones. Interesting on the aquarium stuff. I might consider a diorama at some point.
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Method I've deployed in the past successfully:
Base Map: Side 2 of the Original Flip-Map:Ship
Use Blue Glass Dots aka Pente pieces next to each combatant to mark their depth below surface in 5 foot increments.
I used a darker color blue for Large creatures to measure 10 foot increments.
To track flyers above the surface of the water, I use Combat Tier Flight Bases.
At first, it'll take some extra effort to manage who can attack whom, but normal grid and reach rules apply.
Sharpen your rules knowledge on water based movement, combat and (especially) drowning.
That's why Im thinking once things get too deep switch from bottom to top instead once the players get near the bottom. Only thing is it may cause confusion but then you have the same problem either way you decide to do it. Its a tough one.
That's the way im going to try it anyway. Go with the surface to bottom for the first 100-150ft then switch to bottom to top once you get to the depths of the rift and things.
Oh and if you havn't thought of it and have the spare cash, aquraium shops do some fantasic underwater weeds and scenary (they also double up as alien plant life if you are doing a sci-fi game).
In this case, I'd simply set a new ceiling. Such as: "ok, now we're all very deep underwater. Now we're tracking below 100 ft. depth. So 20 ft means you're in fact 120 ft. below surface."
That works too, another good idea
Hmmm, that is interesting. The flip mat I have is neither that ship nor the pirate ship. It is a 3 level ship and on the reverse the same ship sunken.
I usually use the d% dice I have next to a figurine for aerial and underwater combat.
I think I found it. It appears to be Gamescapes Pirate Ships 2&3, but on a flip mat. Not sure where my wife found it. Was going to say, but mine doesn't have all water on the flip-side, different product from a competitor it seems. Their leviathan war galleon looks cool, but I wouldn't want to face it on the open sea. The combat tier fly bases look cool. How flexible are they in use? Now if they weren't backordered.
I played around with acrylics and tried to make them stackable.
Its a 5ft to 20ft range for now and i think its playable up to 40ft height difference without too much toppling:
I used dice instead of chips for "distance down" and went with 10' intervals (5 was just too fiddly, but would be more accurate)- players at one interval can attack the same level or 1 up or down. I also required movement costs of x2 to go down (reduced to x1 at -3 ACP, x.5 at -6 ACP) and x.5 to go up (change to x1 at -3 ACP, x2 at -6 ACP). If you have good weight, I made sinking 40'/turn the max rate (affects things in the final encounter, book 1).
This has worked out really well for us in the game