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So two of my favorite classes to play have always been the Rogue and the Monk, back from 3.5. Some of the most broken character's I've ever played - while being restricted to the actual rules of the game, anyway, and not including DM fiat - have been rogues and monks.
I've been pretty underwhelmed by what the rogue and monk can do in Pathfinder - and, to a lesser extent now that PF has been around for a while - 3.X. So I went to work attempting to update the classes into what I hoped were better, stronger, more thematically concise options.
And, of course, by "thematically concise" I mean actually able to live up to the concept of their class.
During the course of this work, it came to my attention that I was looking to add simply too much to both classes. I was basically writing a whole new class to layer on top of an old one - kind of like adding a template to a monster. I debated with myself for some time what the best solution to this problem might be, until it finally hit me. I had no need to try to restrict myself to "streamlining" what was already there, when I could simply start from scratch and rebuild my options from the ground up.
To that end, I've been slowly muddling along over the last couple of weeks, flipping back and forth between both my monk and rogue rewrites. Today, I finally finished the rogue! I figured I'd put it up here for critiquing and thoughts. I'm going to be running a mini 3.5 campaign in the next week or so, running the 3.5 versions of both rewrites, so I'm looking to get feedback from both ends.
As a note, this rewrite has received inspiration from several sources. Obviously the rogue classes themselves, as well as the scoundrel class from both the unrevised and revised Star Wars d20, the assassin prestige class (this version of the rogue is meant to replace the assassin prestige class as well), and several character options presented in the Freeport Companion Guide by Green Ronin publishing.
Also bear in mind that I haven't actually worked these ideas directly into PF; I finished the 3.5 version first, so I'm converting as required while posting the piece now. If I've missed anything, feel free to let me know!
Without further ado, the New Rogue!
Acrobatics: An acrobat relies on agility to navigate the battle. While her allies either stand still and absorb the blows of their foes with heavy armor, or stand safely away from the thick of the fray, she feels most alive when she is weaving through her enemies' offenses and delivering her own strikes.
- A novice of acrobatics is not considered flat-footed while using the Acrobatics skill to move across a narrow surface or uneven ground. In similar fashion, she is not at risk of being knocked down from her perch when she takes damage; she is considered to have automatically made a successful Acrobatics check. Lastly, she requires only half the normal amount of time to squeeze through a tight space (see the description of the Escape Artist skill, in the Core Rulebook).
- An apprentice of acrobatics can roll out the momentum of terrible falls. When she makes an Acrobatics check to reduce the damage dealt to her by a fall, she treats the fall as though it were an additional 10 feet shorter for every 10 points by which her check beats the DC of 15. For example, a result of 35 reduces the effective distance of her fall by a total 30 feet. In addition, she can use the Escape Artist skill to free herself from non-magical restraints (excluding a grapple) as a move action.
- An expert of acrobatics who attempts to move up to her full speed on a narrow or uneven surface does not suffer the associated penalty to her Acrobatics check for the accelerated movement. She may attempt to run or charge while moving in this fashion, with her Acrobatics check penalized at -10; a separate check is required for each multiple of her speed that the acrobat moves. Lastly, an expert acrobat can use the Escape Artist skill to escape from a grapple or pin as a swift action.
- A master of acrobatics can move at full speed when using the Acrobatics skill to avoid provoking an attack of opportunity without increasing the DC of the check. Additionally, she can use the Escape Artist skill to escape from magical restraints (such as animated rope, command plants, entangle, and the like) as a standard action. Lastly, the rogue is capable of a defensive roll. This allows her to roll with blows that may otherwise prove lethal, the result being that she takes less damage from the attack. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 hit points or less in combat, the rogue can attempt to roll with an an attack and take only half damage. To use this ability, a rogue must make an Acrobatics check (DC = damage dealt). The rogue must be both aware of an attack (not denied her Dex bonus to AC), and able to respond to it (she cannot be helpless). Only attacks by weapons, both natural and manufactured, can be rolled with; this feature cannot be used to defend against spells, special abilities, or attacks that can kill without dealing hit point damage.
Assassination: The assassin is the master of dealing quick, lethal blows. She excels at laying low an enemy with as little effort as is necessary. She may be a lone killer-for-hire plying her talents to the will of the highest bidder, a stone-cold killer who offers her services only to jilted lovers, or even a righteous agent of justice who works celestial wrath from the shadows.
- A novice of assassination is capable of delivering a death attack. To perform a death attack, she must spend at least 1 full round doing nothing but studying her intended victim; she cannot take any actions, even to defend herself, and the attempt is ruined if she is attacked. In order to have any effect, a death attack must qualify as a sneak attack; for each round that the assassin spent studying her victim, one more of her sneak attack damage dice is treated as though it rolled a natural result of "6." Furthermore, the assassin is an expert of hiding weapons on her person and enjoys a bonus on Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a weapon on her body equal to half her class level.
- An apprentice of assassination can destroy evidence she might have left on the corpse of her victim. She needs 1 hour to mutilate a body, sweep it of hairs, and remove other traces of the victim's identity or her own presence. Per size category smaller than Medium a victim is, this process requires half as much time. Per size category larger, this process requires twice as much (remember that two doubles equal a triple, and so on). After this process, it becomes impossible to identify victims, beyond their age, gender, and creature type, by any mundane means. Investigators have no way of determining time or cause of death, or finding clues to implicate the rogue. Magical practices (divination spells) are unhindered by this feature, if they have a spell level at least equal to 1/2 the rogue's class level (rounding down). Furthermore, the assassin learns several techniques to conceal evidence of her presence and her passing; the DC of Survival checks made to track her or creatures in her company increase by half her class level.
- An expert of assassination completes her training into the eldritch arts, gaining access to a limited selection of spells that enhance her abilities as a spy, saboteur, and silent killer. She may cast spells from the assassin spell list; treat 1/2 her rogue level as her assassin level to determine spells per day and caster level. Furthermore, she is capable of delivering a swift death unto her foes. When she studies a victim in preparation for a death attack, each round that she spends maximizes two dice of her sneak attack damage.
- A master of assassination brings a true and lasting death to those she lays low; she brings ruin not only to flesh, but also to the soul. When the assassin makes a successful Death Attack (as described above) that kills her foe, that victim must make a Fortitude or Will save (DC = 10 + 1/2 the rogue's class level + her Charisma modifier, use whatever save is best) or their spirit is torn asunder by the attack and ceases to exist. Normal magic cannot return life to a creature slain by a death attack; only miracle, wish, or similar strong magic can do so. Furthermore, the assassin can now strike at an enemy so quickly that her actions are faster than the speed of the human eye. When she delivers a death attack that outright slays an enemy, the assassin may immediately attempt a Stealth check opposed by the Perception checks of any creature in the vicinity to prevent them from realizing that she is the assailant. If her Stealth check is at least 10 points higher than that of the best opposed Perception check, then no one even notices that her victim is actually dead for 1d4+1 rounds.
Athletics: Where an acrobat trains her body for agility and balance, the athlete practices endurance and coordination. A rogue who studies under a regimen of athletics can weather physical activity better than can her peers.
- A novice of athletics does not lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class when using the Climb skill. In similar fashion, she is not at risk of being knocked down from her perch when she takes damage; she is considered to have automatically made a successful Climb check. Furthermore, she only falls from her perch is she fails a Climb check by 10 or more.
- An apprentice of athletics can make a Climb check at accelerated movement without the associated penalty to her skill check, or she may move up to her normal speed by accepting a -5 penalty to her skill check. She can make a Swim check as either a move action to move up to half her speed, or as a standard action to move up to her normal speed. She may hold her breath twice as long as normal (remember that two doubles equal a triple, so she can actually hold her breath for three times her Constitution score). Lastly, she is only dragged underwater if she fails a Swim check by 10 or more.
- An expert of athletics does not need a running start in order to make full use of the Jump skill; the DC's of her Jump checks do not increase without one. Additionally, she can catch herself after falling (as noted in the Climb skill's description in the Core Rulebook) with a DC equal only to (wall's DC + 10), or (wall's DC + 5) if on a slope.
- A master of athletics can use a full-attack to attack a foe at a lower elevation, making a single melee or composite bow attack. To attack in this manner she must leap down to reach her foe. She suffers falling damage as is normal, but deals that same damage to a foe in extra damage; this is the same type of damage as the weapon, and is not multiplied with a critical hit.
Awareness: The talents of awareness provide a rogue with uncanny knowledge of her surroundings. Mastering it, she will eventually develop an almost preternatural "sixth sense" for danger. They serve their companions by interpreting subtle clues in the environment and providing them with warning.
- A novice of awareness gains the Uncanny Dodge feature. This lets her react to danger before her senses would normally allow. The rogue cannot be caught flat-footed, and retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is struck by an invisible attacker. She stll loses her bonus if immobilized. If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class, the character then gains Improved Uncanny Dodge (see below) instead, and the levels from both classes that grant Uncanny Dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank her. Additionally, she gains a +2 insight bonus whenever she checks for the following skills: Appraise, Diplomacy (strictly to gather information), Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival (strictly to follow tracks).
- An apprentice of awareness strikes true, reducing the bonuses that her enemies enjoy from concealment and cover by one-half. She may attempt attacks of opportunity against enemies with cover relative to her (but not foes with total cover). Lastly, she gains the Low-Light Vision feature, allowing her to see twice as far as a normal human in conditions of poor illumination. This stacks with any Low-Light Vision the character may already have (remember that two doubles equal a triple, and so on).
- An expert of awareness gains Improved Uncanny Dodge. She can no longer be flanked; she reacts to enemies on opposite sides of her as easily as she can react to a single opponent. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack her by flanking her, unless they have as many levels of rogue as she does or more. Additionally, she gains darkvision feature, and can see up to sixty feet in total (but not magical) darkness; in these conditions, she can see only black and white. If the rogue already has darkvision, instead her total range is extended by an additional 30 feet.
- A master of awareness cannot be caught unaware. She always gets to act on surprise round, and she is not automatically flat-footed when an encounter begins until she acts. Lastly, her senses become so acute that she can gains Skill Focus (Perception) as a bonus feat.
Dirty Fighting: Underhanded tricks are the meat and drink of rogues studying this talent. By unlocking its secrets, the rogue improves her ability to inflict sneak attacks on her enemies. In addition to the following features, she gains a +4 bonus on checks to perform a disarm, feint, sunder or trip attack.
- A novice of dirty fighting can sneak attack creatures benefiting from concealment, but not total concealment. Moreover, she increases the maximum range at which she can make a sneak attack with a thrown or ranged weapon by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
- An apprentice of dirty fighting has studied special weaknesses and vulnerabilities of enemies that traditionally confound her peers. She can deliver both critical hits and sneak attacks to oozes and elementals, and she gains flanking bonuses against these foes as well (though her allies might not). In addition, she increases the maximum range at which she can make a sneak attack with a thrown or a ranged weapon by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
- An expert of dirty fighting scores cleaner, deeper wounds when she strikes a vital area. When she confirms a critical hit with a sneak attack, she is allowed to re-roll all natural 1's and 2's on her extra damage. The normal rules regarding this re-roll still apply. Moreover, she increase the maximum range at which she can make a sneak attack with a thrown or ranged weapon by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
- A master of dirty fighting can deal crippling blows when an enemy is not prepared to defend themselves from her attacks. When one of her sneak attacks deals at least 1 point of damage to an enemy, she also inflicts one point of ability damage. Each time she deals this damage, she chooses which ability score to damage; damage of multiple strikes stacks. Moreover, she increases the maximum range at which she can make a sneak attack with a thrown or a ranged weapon by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
Opportunism: An opportunist relies on two forces that might otherwise seem to conflict to overcome her foes; subtlety and mob violence. When her enemies are threatened by her allies, the threat presented by an opportunist grows as she takes advantage of the distractions.
- A novice of opportunism improves her bonus on attack rolls when flanking an enemy to +4, and also deals an amount of extra damage to flanked enemies equal to 1/2 her class level (rounded down). In addition, she does not provoke an attack of opportunity when attempting a coup de grace.
- An apprentice of opportunism gains a +4 bonus to confirm critical threats against flanked enemies. If she also has the Uncanny Dodge feature, an opportunist's enemies can only confirm critical threats against her if they are flanking her. Additionally, she may perform a coup de grace as a move action.
- An expert of of opportunism is counted as flanking any threatened enemy that is also threatened by one or more of her allies, no matter what her actual position happens to be; both she and her ally or allies gain full benefits for flanking an enemy. Additionally, she may deliver a coup de grace to an enemy who has total concealment from her with only a single full-round action. If the rogue has also attained at least the apprentice rank of the Dirty Fighting talent, she may also deliver a coup de grace to creatures that are subject to her critical hits as a result of that feature.
- A master of opportunism is able to capitalize on the distraction of her allies' attacks with one of her own. Whenever an enemy that she threatens is attacked by an ally, the opportunist may make a melee against them. This counts as an attack of opportunity, but it can only attempted once each round no matter how many attacks of opportunity the opportunist can make. Moreover, when she attempts a coup de grace attack she may decide to brutally kill her enemy; the coup de grace is performed as a standard action and provokes an attack of opportunity as normal, but the opportunist adds half her class level to the Fortitude DC her enemy must make to survive.
Poison Use: Used often by assassins and thugs, poisons are often considered a great equalizer for the stealthy but frail who live in a world that's dominated by armor-clad knights and power-houses of eldritch might. Many poison makers are also alchemists, though by no means is this a requirement. The skills that a rogue acquires as she explores this talent allow her to brew potent toxins and use them to terrifying effect.
- A novice of poison use is not at risk of poisoning herself when she applies a poison to her weapon, rolls a natural 1 on Craft (Alchemy) checks to brew poisons, or rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll using a poisoned weapon. Additionally, constant exposure to toxins and their fumes have built up a resistance to them within the poisoner and she enjoys a +1 bonus on all saves versus poisons of both mundane and supernatural origin.
- An apprentice of poison use can quickly brew toxins. When she makes a Craft (alchemy) check, she may choose to accept a -5 penalty to her skill check; if her Craft check is successful, than she counts that week's result in gold pieces worth of completed work instead of silver pieces. Additionally, she may choose to brew a more potent version of a standard poison by adding five points to the poison's Craft DC. If she successfully completes the dose of poison, then she adds 1/2 her class level to the poison's Fortitude save DC. At this rank, the poisoner's bonus to save versus poison effects improves by +2.
- An expert of poison use may apply poisons to her weapons with a swift action. Alternatively, she may spread thin the application of a single dose of poison over two separate weapons; this requires a standard action, and coats both weapons with a full use of the poison. At this rank, the poisoner's bonus to save versus poison effects improves by +3.
- A master of poison use applies toxins to lasting effect. When she applies a poison to a single weapon, that poison remains virulent for one full round after it scores a hit or comes into contact with a creature, regardless of how many times the weapon is used to attack during this time. At this rank, her bonus to save versus poison effects improves by a final +4.
Survival: Where some rogues prefer to strike first and try to bring down powerful foes before they can strike back, others believe that victory is achieved in a safer – and easier – manner by simply surviving and allowing an enemy to wear themselves down trying to hit them.
- A novice of survival gains the Evasion feature. Whenever she is confronted by an attack that allows for a Reflex save to take only half damage, the survivor takes no damage with a successful saving throw. In addition, she selects one of the following conditions and becomes immune to attacks that cause that condition, though she may remain susceptible to other, unrelated effects such an attack might cause: Checked, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, fascinated, fatigued, shaken, and sickened.
- An apprentice of survival gains a slippery mind, which represents her ability to wriggle free from magical compulsion. If she is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her save, she can attempt another save in in 1 round at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed at her saving throw. In addition, she selects another condition to gain immunity against. She may select this condition from the list above, or she may gain an immunity to a stronger condition based on one she has already selected. This new condition (and the associated condition that she must first gain immunity to) are: blind (dazzled), blow away (checked), exhausted (fatigued), frightened (shaken), nauseated (sickened).
- An expert of survival gains the Improved Evasion Feature. Now, if she fails a Reflex saving throw against an effect that allows a saving throw for half damage (see above), the survivor takes only half damage. In addition, the survivor becomes immune to one additional condition of her choice.
- A master of survival is exceedingly difficult to kill, and receives a bonus on all saving throws to resist effects that would result in death (such as death from massive damage, the petrifying gaze of a medusa, and all magical death effects) equal to half her class level. In addition, she becomes immune to one final condition of her choice.
Trapsmithing: Perhaps the quintessential skill of the rogue is her facility with traps. With a bit of patience, the proficient trapsmith can locate and disable any hidden death-dealing device that her party might encounter.
If a rogue confirms a critical hit with a sneak attack, she may re-roll any die of sneak attack damage that results in a natural "1." She must abide by the second roll of any given die, even if they roll additional "1's." Sneak attack damage is not multiplied, or affected in any other way, by a critical hit.
A ranged attack can count as a sneak attack only if the rogue's target is up to 30 feet away from her. She cannot strike with the requisite accuracy if her target is any further away. Creatures whose vitals are well-protected or are otherwise exceptionally difficult to strike may have protection against a rogue's sneak attack; if her opponent is not subject to extra damage from a critical hit, or is somehow resistant to critical hits (such as the fortification armor quality), that same immunity or resistance applies against sneak attacks. Similarly, the rogue cannot sneak attack a creature that benefits from concealment, nor can a rogue sneak attack a foe by attacking an appendage if is vitals are out of reach.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to attempt a nonlethal sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty; the rogue must make optimal use of her weapon and its design in order to perform a sneak attack.
If the rogue is larger than Medium size, she receives penalties to her Stealth checks as though one size category smaller than she is.
When the rogue uses the Stealth skill as described under the "Sniping" entry in the skill's description, the associated penalty is reduced to only -10.
If the rogue gets to act during a surprise round, she may instead cry out to alert her allies to the impending ambush. While she herself is no longer able to act on the surprise round, each of her allies within thirty feet of her can act even if they would have been otherwise caught by surprise.
When rolling for initiative, the rogue can yell for her allies to rally together or to come to her defense. She makes a normal roll for initiative, but she automatically goes last in the round. Instead, any ally within thirty feet of her can use either their initiative roll or hers, whichever is better.
If the rogue has the Trapsmith talent (see above), she may also scream to her allies to warn them of a trap that has just been triggered. The rogue may then reduce her own trap sense bonus by any amount of her choice, as long as she has at least a +1 bonus left; each ally that hears her then gains a trap sense bonus equal to the number of points the rogue sacrificed. The effects of such a shout last for 1 round.
EDIT:
One thing I forgot to mention. I am well aware, before anyone worries, that rewriting a class can make many archetypes defunct. My next goal, after I finish polishing this and so too the monk, is to bring the archetypes for both back up to speed - and maybe a little stronger, too.
iiinteresting. I hope to take acloser look tomorrow.
iiinteresting. I hope to take acloser look tomorrow.
Thank you for your interest! I hope you'll like what you find, and if you have any questions or comments, feel free to let me know.
One thing I'm looking at for sure is maybe trying to through and balance out the rogue talents a little better. Just sitting there looking at things, it looks more or less fine, but I can't shake this niggling feeling in the back of my mind that the assassin talent tree could be a little too much compared to the other trees.
It's interesting, and while I agree the rogue is in desperate need of love, I do not think this is it.
It loses a lot of the things that make a rogue unique in favor of adding other classes abilities. That and Blindsight, which is kind of unnecessary with rogues getting uncanny dodge.
I do like the idea of expanding the rogue talents, but you can leave the mechanic the same, just add new ones.
IMHO the reason the rogue is lacking is not because it is lacking in combat, though it does lag behind there. It's that people focus on getting rid of the rogue's utility. They have the highest skill points, the most amount of skills. They get sneak attack every odd and a rogue talent (feat!) even level. They get 1/2 their level to perception vs traps, and to disable device vs traps.
I think how to improve them is just give them a straight 1/2 bonus to perception and disable device, then give them talents that would get them darkvision then another for see in darkness. Which would make them insane killers. Drop a deeper darkness using a magic device in a dim room to make it magically dark then slaughter everyone with sneak attacks as you are pretty much invisible to them.
This may bring hope back to your home brew rogue there is a further link under the rogue section of class tweaks that may have the answers you have been looking for...
The rogue styles are fully compatable with every archetype so it adds to without taking away.
It's interesting, and while I agree the rogue is in desperate need of love, I do not think this is it.
It loses a lot of the things that make a rogue unique in favor of adding other classes abilities.
I'm...really not sure exactly what you're getting at here. Everything that makes the rogue the rogue, is still here. The only thing that I have gotten rid of was the plethora of useless rogue talents, instead combining several some-what useful ones into more effective choices.
If you could elaborate as to what the rouge is missing, I can see about trying to add it in if it's really gone? As far as I can see, the thematic flavor of the rogue hasn't changed, and in fact is better defined by giving a rogue the ability to choose her own personal style of subtle combat.
As far as adding the features of other classes, it is my opinion that the rogue should have had these particular features FIRST. Since the rogue is supposed to be all about stealth, it bothers me that other classes are able to outshine her in areas like being followed or being able to hide.
That and Blindsight, which is kind of unnecessary with rogues getting uncanny dodge.
While I can see where you are coming from, I do not think that you fully see the implications. While Uncanny Dodge is good for avoiding unseen attacks, it does you no good for actually dealing with unseen attackers. With blindsense - and further, blindsight - the rogue can now defend against enemies she cannot see and go on the offensive, which seems to me to be exactly the purpose you wish for the rogue in your example situation.
Even then, Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge remain useful because the range of the rogue's blindsense and blindsight are limited - to a maximum of 30 feet, in the case of her blindsense. That's pretty powerful for combat, especially in the case of point-blank marksman or melee rogues, but it doesn't protect her from snipers or other long-range threats (such as some traps or attack spells) the way that Uncanny Dodge continues to do.
I do like the idea of expanding the rogue talents, but you can leave the mechanic the same, just add new ones.
But that's exactly what I decided to try to avoid. I don't want to simply add on features to already existing content, like some kind of template. The traditional rogue lags so far behind that it would require far too much extra material to make that a viable option, in my opinion. A few quick options might work for a short while, but I feel that unless the class was designed from the ground up it would be very difficult to visualize the entire range of consequences any change would have.
IMHO the reason the rogue is lacking is not because it is lacking in combat, though it does lag behind there. It's that people focus on getting rid of the rogue's utility. They have the highest skill points, the most amount of skills. They get sneak attack every odd and a rogue talent (feat!) even level. They get 1/2 their level to perception vs traps, and to disable device vs traps.
I think how to improve them is just give them a straight 1/2 bonus to perception and disable device, then give them talents that would get them darkvision then another for see in darkness. Which would make them insane killers. Drop a deeper darkness using a magic device in a dim room to make it magically dark then slaughter everyone with sneak attacks as you are pretty much invisible to them.
I agree with you on the Perception change; which is exactly why a novice trapsmith gets a bonus to her Perception checks, and not just to Perception checks to find traps. I designed that mechanic with the specific intent of matching/overtaking the archeologist bard.
This may bring hope back to your home brew rogue there is a further link under the rogue section of class tweaks that may have the answers you have been looking for...
The rogue styles are fully compatable with every archetype so it adds to without taking away.
Hm, your rogue styles do look interesting, so I think I'll take a second look at them. If I find something that strikes me, do you mind if I incorporate it into my presentation here? With proper credits, of course.
I also have reservations about flat bonuses to saving throws like that. I can't help but feel that if we're going to go out of our way to bump up all of a character's saves, why don't we just give them the better base saving throw progression for all saves?
Huh. My post was mostly just to bump this up since it seemed like no one had saw it. Guess that worked well :)
Rogue is strong in this one...
One thing I always thought was strange... Shouldn't rogues get movement bonuses thru crowds and not treat them as difficult terrain... Just a Thought...
That's a pretty good suggestion, and is something I worked a basic outline for a long time ago in a different way. If I can come up with something, I may add a new talent tree based on this concept.
Huh. My post was mostly just to bump this up since it seemed like no one had saw it. Guess that worked well :)
Yes, I'd say that it did! Thank you. ^^
Rogue Talent-
Urban Stride -Starting at 2nd level, a Rogue may move through any sort of City Area (such as Market Place, Streets, Sewers, and Rooftops) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. City areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion, however, still affect her.Vanish in Crowds- When 2 or more Creatures or People are within 5'a Rogue can make a Stealth Check in Crowded areas, even when Observed at a -10.
Crowd Surfer- When 2 or more Creatures or People are within 5' of a Rogue his can move at normal speed while using Stealth. If he is not using Stealth his movement is increased by 10'
I made all this up like... now
Hm, I do like your idea for Urban Stride. That I think I will definitely incorporate.
Vanish in Crowds and Crowd Surfer both are kind of lesser versions of class features already built in here - Hide in Plain Sight for Vanish in Crowds, and Prowling for Crowd Surfer - so I wouldn't want to make them into a talent tree.
Making them into talents (at least the way my rogue does talents) would mean that the rogue could get lesser versions of these features at a much lower level. Sure, this gives her access to some of that power early on, but then she's eventually going to get stronger, more versatile versions of them. So she's either wasted class levels gaining minor improvements on features she already had, or she wasted her rogue talents on features she's already going to get, whichever way you want to look at it.
Granted this are very limited to Situational...
And that is like a Draft of a First draft lol
I was just throwing ideas out there dont hurt me
LOL No, that's exactly the point. Throw ideas out there, I want to refine them. :)
Also the Hide in Plain Sight is taken from Rangers I dont think City is even included
T_T
You're exactly right, that it's not, because with the exception of the Urban Ranger archetype the ranger is pretty much meant to be a wilderness scout. I want the rogue to focus mostly on urban adventuring, dungeoneering, and ruin exploration, so applying that on top of her stealth mastery it only makes sense that she would be able to use that trick in more places than the rogue. Plus, again, I don't like the idea of other classes that aren't rogues being better at her own shtick than the rogue herself.
That's why I felt that my added caveat about her needing to be able to move behind cover as part of the Stealth check was an acceptable trade-off. She still needs some sort of cover to be sneaky, but she can get there without being seen even if she is being observed. Plus, I didn't specify what kind of cover; by the rules of combat, even another creature can provide cover.
Hmm I was looking it over some more and had a few more thoughts.
I again reiterate that the Rogue's Talents are not underpowered, and they do not need to be changed. They are rogue specific bonus feats, and like the fighter's bonus feats, should come every even level, if you want, just let them get one at level 1 and then one every even level.
Okay now that I am done with that look at the Urban Ranger. It is unfortunate that the best Rogue archetypes are other class's archetypes.
I think that instead of Hide in Plain Sight, the Blend In ability the Urban Ranger has would be much better. Though just having it as an Advanced Talent would be just as good. Either that or a ability/talent that lets them use a bluff check to distract observers so they can make a stealth check to hide.
Push Through would also be a very good ability to copy, just make it apply to Urban Areas, or limit to rounds/minutes per day if that seems to powerful.
Master of Disguise is a good idea, but you have made it way to powerful as a 2nd level ability. You just gave them Disguise Self basically, but without the drawback of being able to dispel the disguise. I think that you should instead of doing the set ignore the penalty from age/race/gender, say that they reduce the penalty by 1 every 4 levels or so. either that or they remove the penalties for age/race/gender separately at set intervals.
Sneak attack is fine how it is. It does not need a critical hit ability too. Especially sense this just leads to more GM policing of dice rolls. If you really want to add one, say that a rogue adds their weapons critical modifier as extra damage to their sneak attack damage.
Prowling is also too much. Just give them a bonus to their stealth equal to 1/4 or half their level. If half their level at 4th level give them +2 every 4 levels. Fast Stealth is already a good rogue talent, you do not need to make it a rogue ability.
Actually I can go on about the rest of the abilities, but I think that it would be too much.
You are adding too much to the rogue, making it better then any class.
The rogue is good class. The problem with it is people expect it to be what it's not. It's not a combat badass. It's the best skill monkey in the game.
If you want to fix the rogue, give it Jack of all Trade (The 3.5 feat version) as a talent that you can only take at like level 6. Then make an Advanced Talent that allows them to take 10 on any trained skill even if they normally could not.
Make trap-finding exactly like Clever Explorer.
Make trap sense to also be a bonus against surprise attacks, meaning + to initiative, reflex saves, and a Dodge bonus in surprise rounds.
Give them Improved Feint as a bonus feat, then make it a swift action latter on. This makes them able to sneak attack on their own, while not hidden or invisible.
Make Darkvision a rogue talent, then See in Darkness an Advanced Rogue Talent.
If not that, make it so you can still sneak attack and opponent with concealment, but make the rogue roll against that concealment to get sneak attack.
Finally give the rogue back Improved Evasion as a class ability.
This may bring hope back to your home brew rogue there is a further link under the rogue section of class tweaks that may have the answers you have been looking for...
The rogue styles are fully compatable with every archetype so it adds to without taking away.
Hm, your rogue styles do look interesting, so I think I'll take a second look at them. If I find something that strikes me, do you mind if I incorporate it into my presentation here? With proper credits, of course.
** spoiler omitted **
Thanks for the critique!
First off, the magical talents and arcanist style are optional not standard, I just like the idea of a rogue who dabbles in a bit of everything.Second, I agree about the "ki pool" in name alone. Call it something else, but keep it. Rogues are plucky, crafty, tricky, and resourceful. This "ki pool" is the personification of that. A lot of your ideas could be treated as "ki" activated abilities, or "ki" fueled talents.
Third, the flat bonuses only go to classes with one good save (barb, fighter, and rogue), in the grand scheme of things, it's not the same as having another good save, but it also gives them an edge over straight failing a save or suck. This is also one of the biggest complaints about the rogue because ref is the least harsh save to fail. I have some rogue styles that develop the concept of the "lucky rogue" even further. Also trap sense is one of the main features swaped out in archetypes, so factor that in as well.
Fourthly, please feel free to use my ideas in your games. I too, love the rogue, and just want to see them take their place as a viable option at character creation.
I read through your changes, and while I do think that many of them address many issues, I think that a simpler, more streamlined, and overall more compatable with existing material, is the best way to go to attract more rogue love.
May the way of the Shadowed Hand forever strike true!
*made some edits to improve on the flow of thought.
Hmm I was looking it over some more and had a few more thoughts.
I again reiterate that the Rogue's Talents are not underpowered, and they do not need to be changed. They are rogue specific bonus feats, and like the fighter's bonus feats, should come every even level, if you want, just let them get one at level 1 and then one every even level.
I respectfully disagree. There is no rogue talent in any of the sourcebooks that matches up to the versatility and sheer power of many feats. Many rogue talents are too narrow in scope and situation to be considered equal to a feat. And a quick search through the forums shows that I'm neither the only person who believes this, nor am I in the minority.
Okay now that I am done with that look at the Urban Ranger. It is unfortunate that the best Rogue archetypes are other class's archetypes.
I think that instead of Hide in Plain Sight, the Blend In ability the Urban Ranger has would be much better. Though just having it as an Advanced Talent would be just as good. Either that or a ability/talent that lets them use a bluff check to distract observers so they can make a stealth check to hide.
I completely forgot about the Urban Ranger! I will definitely have to go take a look at that, so thank you for bringing it up. As far as your second suggestion, I think you need to re-read the description of the Stealth skill in the Core Rulebook.
while people are aware of you.
What you're suggesting be made a talent already exists as part of the Stealth skill, so that would be a wasted character option. Now, I may not be understanding what you're trying to get at, properly? If that's the case, please elaborate a little more.
Master of Disguise is a good idea, but you have made it way to powerful as a 2nd level ability. You just gave them Disguise Self basically, but without the drawback of being able to dispel the disguise. I think that you should instead of doing the set ignore the penalty from age/race/gender, say that they reduce the penalty by 1 every 4 levels or so. either that or they remove the penalties for age/race/gender separately at set intervals.
I don't think you're taking into account the amount of time that is required to do this. If the character makes a swift disguise, they're at the same penalties as always. If they do choose to make a master disguise, it takes anywhere from ten minutes to half an hour! Whereas the party caster can drop disguise self as a standard action.
Plus, disguise self affects everything on you at once - including your gear. Many GM's overlook it, but a character who doesn't have the right equipment to match the role is not creating very effective disguise. With Master of Disguise, you only apply the disguise to yourself; the Disguise skill doesn't automatically let you get your hands on props or alter the appearance of your equipment.
Sneak attack is fine how it is. It does not need a critical hit ability too. Especially sense this just leads to more GM policing of dice rolls. If you really want to add one, say that a rogue adds their weapons critical modifier as extra damage to their sneak attack damage.
Again, I humbly disagree. Sneak Attack is only a regular threat if you can flank your enemy; it is very difficult - and again, situational - for a rogue to count on sneak attack being a major threat in any other situation. Once someone can cast greater invisibility on her, that becomes a slightly different story, but even with a caster in the party this is not always a guarantee.
In my opinion, my addition to sneak attack allows it to present a more credible reflection of "striking a vital area." If I score a critical hit, but only deal 10 sneak attack damage at twentieth level because of my roll, then what vital did I strike? That guy's Achilles Pinkie Finger?
At any rate, I feel like your suggestion either is not enough or is too much. If I only get to add my crit multiplier once - well, what's +3 damage when I'm rolling 3d6? Sure, if I roll minimum possible, I'm at least getting to double my extra damage, but it's still a measly six out of the 18 I could be doing.
Prowling is also too much. Just give them a bonus to their stealth equal to 1/4 or half their level. If half their level at 4th level give them +2 every 4 levels. Fast Stealth is already a good rogue talent, you do not need to make it a rogue ability.
I very much dislike Fast Stealth in its entirety. It was a poor fix for screwing the Stealth skill over.
As far as Prowling itself is concerned, I'm not sure why you say that it's too much. The only penalty it gets rid of is the same penalty as Fast Stealth. Now, if you're a Large size creature, it will get rid of that penalty as well - but ONLY if you are Large size.
Actually I can go on about the rest of the abilities, but I think that it would be too much.
You are adding too much to the rogue, making it better then any class.
Please elaborate how this is so, so that I can consider it. From where I stand, it should outshine every other class in matters of stealth, because that's the point of the rogue class - that's the entire definition of its concept. But stick my rogue toe-to-toe against a fighter, or a wizard at range, and she'll get slaughtered. Like any other character, she can hold her own - especially when supported by allies - but cannot take away from the role of any other character in the party.
The rogue is good class. The problem with it is people expect it to be what it's not. It's not a combat badass. It's the best skill monkey in the game.
If you want to fix the rogue, give it Jack of all Trade (The 3.5 feat version) as a talent that you can only take at like level 6. Then make an Advanced Talent that allows them to take 10 on any trained skill even if they normally could not.
I think that's where you and I disagree on a fundamental level - I do not agree that the rogue's purpose is to go nuts over her skills, but to focus on subtlety to overcome challenges. Do skills help her accomplish that goal? Of course, certainly! But to focus on her skills would leave the rogue dangerously under-prepared for a variety of challenges.
And no character is a combat bad-ass unless built that way. Poorly designed, even a barbarian can suck. Wonderfully designed, even a wizard can wade with impunity into melee. Why should the rogue not also have the versatility to choose her path this way?
Make trap-finding exactly like Clever Explorer.
Make trap sense to also be a bonus against surprise attacks, meaning + to initiative, reflex saves, and a Dodge bonus in surprise rounds.
Give them Improved Feint as a bonus feat, then make it a swift action latter on. This makes them able to sneak attack on their own, while not hidden or invisible.
Make Darkvision a rogue talent, then See in Darkness an Advanced Rogue Talent.
If not that, make it so you can still sneak attack and opponent with concealment, but make the rogue roll against that concealment to get sneak attack.
Finally give the rogue back Improved Evasion as a class ability.
I have other plans for an initiative bonus, so that will have to wait until I finish that up.
I am definitely interested in working Improved Feint, so thank you for that suggestion! But probably as part of a talent tree. I really dislike the traditional rogue talent presentation, so I'm not likely to work back to it.
Through my rogue talents, you can get darkvision, so that's a non-issue.
As far as Improved Evasion goes, I can't say that I'm any more likely to move that back as a base class feature, especially since it wasn't to begin with. Evasion was, but you still had to select a rogue talent to improve it.
I would leave imp feint as a feat, just remove the pre reqs for it. Combat expt blows. So far it has been a good tweak in my games.
Rogue talents are feats, to the point that you can take a feat using rogue talents. Several rogue talents in fact give you bonus feats. Finesse Rogue anyone.
Yes I did miss the fact that you can already create diversions using bluff, thank you for pointing that out.
Now as far as fast stealth is concerned, if you think it is too little, then copy the Elf's alternate racial trait Silent Hunter. They can run, but with a -20. You can make it a -15, since fast stealth reduces the penalty by 10 rather then 5, being able to run at a -10 penalty is too powerful. You should not be able to run at full speed and make so little noise.
Yes sneak attack is very situational. Yet it's the same progression as the alchemist's bombs, and it's unlimited by times per day. That means so long as you flank/feint/catch an opponent flat-footed, you can sneak attack, for as many attacks you have. Just by making feint a swift action you would give the rogue the ability to full attack an opponent every round and apply sneak attack to every attack. You would outclass most two weapon fighters with the right build.
I also disagree with your idea of what a rogue should be. A rogue is a swindler, a thief, a scoundrel. They are a person that lives by their wits and guile. They are not Ninjas or Assassins. You are taking a unique class and making it too much like the others. You are discounting the fact that rogues get the most amount of class skills and the most skill points per level.
What you are talking about how a rogue should be Paizo already did. It's called the Ninja.
I think you said it yourself in your first post. The most broken characters you played were rogues. That is the thing, no class should be broken. They should have their own uniqueness to them. If a class is not a powerhouse, then find another role for them. If you are playing a campaign where rogues don't shine, then choose another class. Do fall into the trap that everyone in the party should be doing massive damage every round of combat. The Rogue shines out of combat, in opening doors and making sure that their companions are not killed by traps.
The problem with rogues is exactly that I said before. It's not they are not a good class, but that Paizo robbed them of their best abilities and gave them to other classes. There should not be Urban Rangers and Archaeologist Bards. Those should have been rogue archetypes.
While numerically, the rogue receives more skill points per level than other classes, I don't think they really shine in the skill department - enter the Bard.
With Bardic Knowledge, Versatile Performance, Lore Master, Jack of all Trades, and only 2 less skill points per level than a rogue, I feel the bard still blows the rogue out of the water. Add to that the perceived suckage of most rogue talents vs the spells and everything else a bard brings to the table - the rogue really doesn't stand a chance.
I don't particularly agree with or disagree with any of the other comments above - lurking to see how this plays out.
Edit:
The problem with rogues is exactly that I said before. It's not they are not a good class, but that Paizo robbed them of their best abilities and gave them to other classes. There should not be Urban Rangers and Archaeologist Bards. Those should have been rogue archetypes.
This is definitely a big part of the "issue".
Skill mastery has never been the main draw of the rogue for me. It's the skill versatility that is good. Having something for just about everything... That is what a rogue does. SA gives them something for dmg, skill selection and points / lvl give them something more, magical talents add even further.
The problem is that the versatility in and out of combat and the ability to pull some kind of trick for any situation is not adequately represented. The base mechanics should allow you to do anything passably, and build to do one or two things especially well. Instead, the rogue as is sucks a little at a lot of different things.
Yeah I might going overboard with my devil's advocacy but this is a big complaint I have with pen and paper rpgs. I really do not like power creep.
Bards step all over rogues as far as skills go. They should have been only 4+int skill points per level. Or more to the point Jack of all Trades should have been a Rogue only skill. They made bards too much into magical rogues, it is really annoying. The Archaeologist bard is the worst offender.
Yes some of the Rogue Talents are under powered, but really all you should do is beef them up so they are equal to a feat.
And as far as stealth, like I said, I can see the rogue having a 1/2 level bonus to stealth.
Really it is up to you though. This is a home-brewed class. Paizo is not going to change their rogue, and it will be up to DM's whether they want to use your Rogue. I was just arguing that if you go overboard adding shiny abilities to it, no GM will want someone in their group to play it. It will become a class that people point to to show what power creep is.
Really though you are undervaluing the rogue and all their abilities. You are saying that they should be masters of disguise, stealth, and damage. You want the rogue to do too much. At least in my humble opinion.
Anyways this will be my last post on this. I cannot change your mind, nor contribute to your idea in any positive fashion, seeing as I cannot come to agree with you about what is wrong with the rogue.
Yeah I might going overboard with my devil's advocacy but this is a big complaint I have with pen and paper rpgs. I really do not like power creep.
Bards step all over rogues as far as skills go. They should have been only 4+int skill points per level. Or more to the point Jack of all Trades should have been a Rogue only skill. They made bards too much into magical rogues, it is really annoying. The Archaeologist bard is the worst offender...
And as far as stealth, like I said, I can see the rogue having a 1/2 level bonus to stealth...
Really though you are undervaluing the rogue and all their abilities. You are saying that they should be masters of disguise, stealth, and damage. You want the rogue to do too much. At least in my humble opinion.
Agreed generally on power creep. All told, I think the bard might do better with either a base 6 skill points or Jack of all Trades. Given the Bard being a derivative (maybe alternate class) of the rogue/thief originally, I would say that it can be better, but at some cost. Currently, there isn't much of a downside to playing a bard except for flavor reasons.
Also, allowing a rogue to choose two areas to be good at stuff seems fair. You could be an infiltrator by being good at stealth and disguise, or an assassin with damage and either stealth or disguise (as you might see fit.
Rogue talents are feats, to the point that you can take a feat using rogue talents. Several rogue talents in fact give you bonus feats. Finesse Rogue anyone.
But that doesn't make them feats, and it's a limited number of talents out of all that have been presented which can do that. And I'm fairly certain you can't take them more than once, like most other rogue talents, unless I'm just remembering that wrong.
Now as far as fast stealth is concerned, if you think it is too little, then copy the Elf's alternate racial trait Silent Hunter. They can run, but with a -20. You can make it a -15, since fast stealth reduces the penalty by 10 rather then 5, being able to run at a -10 penalty is too powerful. You should not be able to run at full speed and make so little noise.
I'm not sure a -10 penalty is a "little" noise. Assuming that, at level, your rogue has fifty-fifty shot of pulling of stealth in any given situation, this -10 penalty is a full 50% reduction to even that. It just seems a decent fix to me, for something Paizo screwed in the first place.
Yes sneak attack is very situational. Yet it's the same progression as the alchemist's bombs, and it's unlimited by times per day. That means so long as you flank/feint/catch an opponent flat-footed, you can sneak attack, for as many attacks you have. Just by making feint a swift action you would give the rogue the ability to full attack an opponent every round and apply sneak attack to every attack. You would outclass most two weapon fighters with the right build.
I'm not sure we're on the same page as to the capabilities of feinting. A successful feint is only effective against your NEXT attack, not your next round or next turn. So even if I made feinting a swift action, you'd still only be able to get sneak attack off for one attack.
While the alchemist's damage progression may be limited in usages per day, he can use it on pretty much anything he encounters. So I'm not sure your example is adequately balanced.
I also disagree with your idea of what a rogue should be. A rogue is a swindler, a thief, a scoundrel. They are a person that lives by their wits and guile. They are not Ninjas or Assassins. You are taking a unique class and making it too much like the others. You are discounting the fact that rogues get the most amount of class skills and the most skill points per level.
But skills are not the focus of a character's capabilities, and they never have been. If that was the case, EVERY class would get a metric ton of additional skill points to fully explore everything they know. That's why you only get so many skill points; they compliment what a character can do, and measure what you have actual, real-world experience with and understanding of.
What you are talking about how a rogue should be Paizo already did. It's called the Ninja.
Considering the ninja is not a separate class, but a subclass of the rogue anyway, I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Realistically, the ninja was a mistake - and I think you should also think that if you're against power creep. This class - as well as my monk rewrite when that is finished - are meant to make the ninja obsolete.
I think you said it yourself in your first post. The most broken characters you played were rogues. That is the thing, no class should be broken. They should have their own uniqueness to them. If a class is not a powerhouse, then find another role for them. If you are playing a campaign where rogues don't shine, then choose another class. Do fall into the trap that everyone in the party should be doing massive damage every round of combat. The Rogue...
Broken does not mean the class is a combat powerhouse, they can be broken in any number of ways - but that's just it. The PF rogue can never be broken, because they can't keep up with other classes. They just can't do it. Even their own purpose is subsumed by archetypes from other classes. In a Core-only game, the rogue stands alone and can shine - as soon as an archeologist bard comes into play, his primary class feature is not only stolen but done better.
Yeah I might going overboard with my devil's advocacy but this is a big complaint I have with pen and paper rpgs. I really do not like power creep.
Bards step all over rogues as far as skills go. They should have been only 4+int skill points per level. Or more to the point Jack of all Trades should have been a Rogue only skill. They made bards too much into magical rogues, it is really annoying. The Archaeologist bard is the worst offender.
Yes some of the Rogue Talents are under powered, but really all you should do is beef them up so they are equal to a feat.
And as far as stealth, like I said, I can see the rogue having a 1/2 level bonus to stealth.
Really it is up to you though. This is a home-brewed class. Paizo is not going to change their rogue, and it will be up to DM's whether they want to use your Rogue. I was just arguing that if you go overboard adding shiny abilities to it, no GM will want someone in their group to play it. It will become a class that people point to to show what power creep is.
Really though you are undervaluing the rogue and all their abilities. You are saying that they should be masters of disguise, stealth, and damage. You want the rogue to do too much. At least in my humble opinion.
I'm sorry that you see it that way, but the purpose is to make the rogue PLAYABLE in the face of power creep that is already a facet of the official game itself. If a group's GM doesn't allow those options, then there's no point in talking about home-brewed rogues because the rogue keeps a hold of its trade in stock. As soon as the urban ranger, the ninja alt class, and the archeologist bard come into play, he gets shafted by classes that can follow his main shtick and then some.
In the end my rogue isn't capable of "doing everything," like you accuse her of. She can choose to master two separate paths if she desires, and dabble lightly in a third, or she can spread herself out and be really good at a few, and competent in a fourth, and so on. Now, when I get through with additional options for this class like feats, the rewritten Extra Rogue Talent feat will let her take one additional talent (since mine are fewer in number and give more out of themselves), but then a character should be able to excel if she's willing to pay out the feat tax for that.
Anyways this will be my last post on this. I cannot change your mind, nor contribute to your idea in any positive fashion, seeing as I cannot come to agree with you about what is wrong with the rogue.
Well, I suppose that's your decision. You've given me a couple of ideas to expand on, so let me thank you for those!
I would leave imp feint as a feat, just remove the pre reqs for it. Combat expt blows. So far it has been a good tweak in my games.
Meh. Personally, I've never had a problem with any character whose taken CE in Pathfinder. In 3.5? Definitely. But it's saved my skin more than once; giving up a round or two of smacking down someone so that you can keep them from smacking YOU down while you catch a second wind and your companions regroup is not inherently a bad thing in the actual practice of the game, despite what the skewed "average results" say about action economy.
I have updated two levels of my rogue rewrite.
At 8th level, the rogue gains a new Stealth Sense feature (instead of blindsense), and at 16th level, she gains an altered form of blindsense.
I'm going to completely re-post the entire class below, to include these changes, as well as several spelling error fixes, and a few other minor tweaks.
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Skill Ranks per Level" 8 + Intelligence modifier
If a rogue confirms a critical hit with a sneak attack, she may re-roll any die of sneak attack damage that results in a natural "1." She must abide by the second roll of any given die, even if they roll additional "1's." Sneak attack damage is not multiplied, or affected in any other way, by a critical hit.
A ranged attack can count as a sneak attack only if the rogue's target is up to 30 feet away from her. She cannot strike with the requisite accuracy if her target is any further away. Creatures whose vitals are well-protected or are otherwise exceptionally difficult to strike may have protection against a rogue's sneak attack; if her opponent is not subject to extra damage from a critical hit, or is somehow resistant to critical hits (such as the fortification armor quality), that same immunity or resistance applies against sneak attacks. Similarly, the rogue cannot sneak attack a creature that benefits from concealment, nor can a rogue sneak attack a foe by attacking an appendage if is vitals are out of reach.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (a sap, whip, or unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to attempt a nonlethal sneak attack, not even with the usual -4 penalty; the rogue must make optimal use of her weapon and its design in order to perform a sneak attack.
If a rogue takes more time to study her environment, she can to refine this gut feeling into more pertinant information. With a second full-round action, the rogue becomes aware of how many creatures within range are using the Stealth skill. With a third full-round action, she can to pin-point the location of each creature within range. With a fourth full-round action, she also becomes aware of creatures using magical forms of concealment (such as invisibility, silence or related effects, and even Illusion spells that alter one's appearence). Each of these rounds must be spent consecutively in order to gain additional benefit from Stealth Sense.
If the rogue gets to act during a surprise round, she may instead cry out to alert her allies to the impending ambush. While she herself is no longer able to act on the surprise round, each of her allies within thirty feet of her can act even if they would have been otherwise caught by surprise.
When rolling for initiative, the rogue can yell for her allies to rally together or to come to her defense. She makes a normal roll for initiative, but she automatically goes last in the round. Instead, any ally within thirty feet of her can use either their initiative roll or hers, whichever is better.
If the rogue has the Trapsmith talent (see above), she may also scream to her allies to warn them of a trap that has just been triggered. The rogue may then reduce her own trap sense bonus by any amount of her choice, as long as she has at least a +1 bonus left; each ally that hears her then gains a trap sense bonus equal to the number of points the rogue sacrificed. The effects of such a shout last for 1 round.
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Class Skills: A rogue with at least one acrobatics rogue talent gains Acrobatics (Dex) and Escape Artist (Dex) as class skills.
- A novice acrobat is not flat-footed while using Acrobatics to move across narrow or uneven surfaces. She is not knocked down from damage. Additionally, she requires half the normal as long to squeeze through tight spaces (see the Escape Artist skill in the Core Rulebook).
- An apprentice acrobat can roll out the momentum of terrible falls. When she makes an Acrobatics check to reduce the damage dealt to her by a fall, she treats the fall as though it were an additional 10 feet shorter for every 10 points by which she beats the DC of 15. For example, a result of 35 reduces the damage of her fall by 30 feet. In addition, she can use the Escape Artist skill to free herself from non-magical restraints (excluding a grapple or pin) as a move action.
- An expert acrobat who attempts to move up to her full speed on a narrow or uneven surface does not suffer the associated penalty to her Acrobatics check for the accelerated movement. She may attempt to run or charge while moving in this fashion, with her Acrobatics check penalized at -10; a separate check is required for each multiple of her speed that the acrobat moves. Lastly, an expert acrobat can use the Escape Artist skill to escape from a grapple or pin as a swift action.
- A master acrobatic can move at full speed when using Acrobatics to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity without increasing the DC of the check. Additionally, she can use the Escape Artist skill to escape from magical restraint (such as animated rope, command plants, entangle, and the like) as a standard action.
The acrobat is capable of a defensive roll. This allows her to roll with blows that may prove lethal, the result being that she takes less damage from the attack. Once per day, when she would be reduced to 0 hp or less in combat, the acrobat can attempt to roll with an attack and take only half damage. To do so, an acrobat must make an Acrobatics check (DC = damage dealt). The acrobat must be both aware of an attack (not denied her Dex bonus to AC), and able to respond to it (she cannot be helpless). Only attacks by weapons, both natural and manufactured, can be rolled with; this feature cannot be used to defend against spells, special abilities, or attacks that can kill without dealing hit point damage.
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one assassination rogue talent gains Disguise (Cha) and Knowledge (Nobility) as class skills.
- A novice assassin can deliver death attacks. To perform a death attack, she must spend at least 1 full round action to study her victim. If she takes damage or would be distracted in any other way (see the description for concentration, in chapter 9 of the Core Rulebook), she must make a concentration check (modified by Charisma) each round that she would be distracted. If multiple distractions present themselves in a round, use only the highest DC. If the assassin fails a single one of these checks, her attempt is ruined and she must begin anew. After studying her victim, she must attempt the death attack within one minute or be forced to study her victim over again. If the assassin's next attack against that victim is a sneak attack, then one die of extra damage is automatically maximized for each round that she studied the creature. Furthermore, the assassin enjoys a bonus on Sleight of Hand checks to conceal a weapon on her body equal to half her class level.
- An apprentice assassin can destroy evidence she may leave on the corpse of her victims. She needs one hour of uninterrupted work to mutilate a body, sweep it of hairs, and remove other traces of the victim's identity or her own presence, though this hour does not need to pass in a single sitting. For a creature smaller than Medium size, each size category reduces the amount of time required by half. Likewise, for each size category larger than Medium a creature is, this process takes twice as long (remember that two doubles equal a triple, and so on).
After this process, it becomes impossible to identify victims, beyond their age ,gender, and creature type, by any mundane means. Investigators have no way of determining time or cause of death, and find no clues that implicate the assassin in the creature's death – or even place her at the scene of the crime. Magical practices (such as divination spells) are unhindered by this feature, if their spell level is at least equal to half the rogue's class level (rounding down). Furthermore, the assassin learns several techniques to conceal evidence of her presence and her passing; the DC of Survival checks made to track her or creatures in her company increases by half her class level (rounding down).
- An expert assassin masters a secret dark art that allows her to siphon away the life force of her victims. When she delivers a death attack, she may choose to either maximize her sneak attack damage or to inflict negative levels upon a victim. If she chooses to inflict a negative level she deals no sneak attack damage, but each round she spends studying a victim allows her to inflict one negative level (up to a number of negative levels equal to the number of dice she would normally roll for sneak attack damage). Each day, a victim is allowed a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + half the assassin's class level + her Charisma modifier) to remove all such inflicted negative levels. If the assassin's death attack confirms a critical hit, one of these negative levels is instead permanent level drain and cannot be removed by a Fortitude save; only strong magic such as restoration can remove them.
Alternatively, she may choose to deliver a swift death attack. If she does so, each round that she spends studying her intended victim allows her to maximize two dice of her sneak attack damage.
- A master assassin brings true and lasting death to those she slays; she ruins not only flesh, but also the soul. When the assassin delivers a death attack that kills her foe, that victim must make a Will save (DC = 10 + half the rogue's class level + her Charisma modifier) or their spirit is torn asunder by the attack and ceases to exist. Normal magic cannot communicate with or return life to a creature slain by a death attack; only miracle, wish, or similar strong magic can do so.
Furthermore, the assassin can now strike at an enemy so quickly that her actions are faster than the speed of the human eye. When she delivers a death attack that outright slays an enemy, the assassin may immediately attempt a Stealth check opposed by the Perception checks of any creature in the vicinity to prevent them from realizing that she is the assailant. If her Stealth check is at least 10 points higher than that of the best opposed Perception check, then no one even notices that her victim is actually dead for 1d4+1 rounds.
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one athletics rogue talent gains Climb (Str) and Swim (Str) as class skills.
- A novice athlete does not lose her Dexterity bonus to Armor Class when using the Climb skill. In similar fashion, she is not at risk of being knocked down when she takes damage; she is considered to have automatically made a successful Climb check. Furthermore, she only falls from her perch is she fails a Climb check by 10 or more, whether she is climbing on her own or attempting to catch a falling character. When attempting to catch a falling character, that character's total weight can exceed the athlete's heavy load for 1 round; after this time, if the creature has not regained its own hold, both fall.
- An apprentice athlete can make a Climb check at accelerated movement without the associated penalty to her skill check, or she may move up to her normal speed by accepting a -5 penalty to her skill check. She can make a Swim check as either a move action to move up to half her speed, or as a standard action to move up to her normal speed. She may hold her breath twice as long as normal (remember that two doubles equal a triple, so she can actually hold her breath for three times her Constitution score). Lastly, she is only dragged underwater if she fails a Swim check by 10 or more.
- An expert athlete does not need a running start to use of the Jump skill; the DC's of her Jump checks do not increase without one. Additionally, she can catch herself after falling with ease. If falling from a wall, the normal DC increases by only +10; if falling from a slope, the normal DC increase by only +5.
- A master athlete can use a full attack to attack a foe at lower elevation, making a single attack that applies the character's Strength modifier to damage, and apply the momentum of the fall to her strike. To do this, the athlete must drop from her current elevation by at least 10 feet, and must land within striking distance of her foe; the attack is made nearly upon landing, so a ranged weapon provokes an attack of opportunity as normal. She deals an extra amount of damage on this attack equal to the amount of falling damage that she herself takes from the fall. With a successful Acrobatics check, she can reduce the amount of damage she is herself subject to without reducing the amount of extra damage she inflicts upon her foe. This additional damage is not multiplied by a critical hit.
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one awareness rogue talent gains Perception (Wis) and Sense Motive (Wis) as class skills.
- A novice of awareness gains Uncanny Dodge. See the description of this feature under the barbarian character class. If she already has this feature from a different class, she instead gains Improved Uncanny Dodge. Additionally, she gains a bonus on Perception skill checks equal to half of her class level (minimum of +1).
- An apprentice of awareness strikes true, reducing the bonuses that her enemies enjoy from concealment (including the miss chance) and cover by one-half. She may attempt attacks of opportunity against enemies with cover relative to her (but not foes with total cover). Lastly, she gains the Low-Light Vision feature, allowing her to see twice as far as a normal human in conditions of poor illumination. This stacks with any Low-Light Vision the character may already have (remember that two doubles equal a triple, and so on).
- An expert of awareness gains Improved Uncanny Dodge. She can no longer be flanked; she reacts to enemies on opposite sides of her as easily as she can react to a single opponent. This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack her by flanking her, unless they have as many levels of rogue as she does or more. Additionally, she gains the Darkvision feature, and can see up to sixty feet in total (but not magical) darkness; in these conditions, she can see only black and white. If the rogue already has darkvision, instead her total range is extended by an additional 30 feet.
- A master of awareness cannot be caught unaware. She always gets to act on a surprise round, and she is not flat-footed when an encounter begins. Lastly, her senses become so acute that she can gains Skill Focus (Perception) as a bonus feat.
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one dirty fighting rogue talent gains Sleight of Hand (Dex) and Stealth (Dex) as class skills.
- A novice of dirty fighting can sneak attack creatures that benefit from concealment against her, but not those with total concealment. Moreover, she increases the maximum range at which she can make sneak attacks by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
- An apprentice of dirty fighting has studied special weaknesses and vulnerabilities of enemies that traditionally confound her peers. She can deliver both critical hits and sneak attacks to oozes and elementals, and she gains flanking bonuses against these foes as well (though her allies might not, their presence still counts for determining her own flanking bonuses). In addition, she increases the maximum range at which she can make sneak attacks by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
- An expert of dirty fighting scores cleaner, deeper wounds when she strikes a vital area. When she confirms a critical hit with a sneak attack, she is allowed to re-roll all natural 1's and 2's on her extra damage. The normal rules regarding this reroll still apply. Furthermore, she increases the maximum range at which she can make sneak attacks by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
- A master of dirty fighting can deal crippling blows when an enemy is not prepared to defend themselves from her attacks. When one of her sneak attacks deals at least 1 point of damage to an enemy, she also inflicts one point of ability damage. Each time she deals this damage, she chooses which ability score to damage; damage of multiple strikes stacks. She increases the maximum range at which she can make sneak attacks by 15 feet (up to the first range increment of her weapon).
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one opportunism rogue talent gains Bluff (Cha) and Intimidate (Cha) as class skills.
- A novice opportunist gains a further +2 bonus on attack rolls, and deals additional damage with all attacks equal to half her class level (rounded down), when flanking her opponent. In addition, she does not provoke an attack of opportunity when delivering a coup de grace.
- An apprentice opportunist gains a +4 bonus to confirm critical threats against flanked enemies. If she also has the Uncanny Dodge feature, an opportunist's enemies can only confirm critical threats against her if they are flanking her. Additionally, she may perform a coup de grace as a move action.
- An expert opportunist is considered to be flanking any enemy threatened both by herself and at least one ally, regardless of her actual position. Both the opportunist and her ally receive full benefits for flanking. Additionally, she may deliver a coup de grace attack against a creature with total concealment from her with only one round's worth of actions; a standard action to pinpoint the creature's location within its space, and a move action (as noted above) to actually deliver the attack.
- A master opportunist is able to capitalize on the distraction of her allies' attacks with one of her own. Whenever an enemy that she threatens is attacked by an ally, the opportunist may make a melee against them. This counts as an attack of opportunity, but it can only attempted once each round no matter how many attacks of opportunity the opportunist can make.
Furthermore, when she attempts a coup de grace attack she may decide to brutally kill her enemy; the coup de grace is performed as a standard action and provokes an attack of opportunity as normal, but the opportunist adds half her class level to the Fortitude DC her enemy must make to survive. She may attempt to brutally kill an enemy with total concealment, but she must spend a full-round action to do so (and provoke an attack of opportunity).
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one poison use rogue talent gains Craft as a class skill.
- A novice poisoner is not at risk of poisoning herself when applying a poison to a weapon, rolls a natural 1 on Craft (Alchemy) checks to brew poisons, or rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll using a poisoned weapon. Additionally, constant exposure to toxins and their fumes have built up a resistance to them within the poisoner and she enjoys a +1 bonus on all saves versus poisons of both mundane and supernatural origin.
- An apprentice poison user can brew toxins much more quickly than others. This choice must be made when the poison user first begins to brew a poion, and it cannot be changed without the character failing to brew her poison and ruining the raw materials. When she makes a Craft (Alchemy) check to brew a poison, she must do so at a -5 penalty to her check; if successful, she counts the week's progress in gold pieces instead of silver. If her check beats the DC by 10 or more, then she counts her progress in platinum pieces instead of silver pieces.
Additionally, she may choose to brew a more potent version of a standard toxin. This choice must be made when the poison user first begins to brew a poison, and it cannot be changed without the character failing to brew her poison and ruining the raw materials. The DC of the poison user's Craft check to brew the poison increases by five points, but she adds half her class level (rounded down) to the Fortitude DC of all doses of the poison that she successfully brews.
Poisoners may attempt to quickly brew potent toxin. Her bonus on saving throws to resist the effects of poisons improves by +2.
- An expert of poison use may apply poisons to her weapons with a swift action. Alternatively, she may spread thin the application of a single dose of poison over two separate weapons; this requires a standard action, and coats both weapons with a full dose of the poison. At this rank, the poisoner's bonus to save versus poison effects improves by +3.
- A master poison user applies toxins to lasting effect. When she applies a poison to a single weapon, that poison remains virulent for one full round no matter how many times it deals damage or comes into contact with a creature. This may allow her to strike an enemy more than once with a single dose of the poison, having a cumulative effect as noted in Appendix I of the Core Rulebook. Additionally, her bonus on saving throws to resist the effects of poisons improves by +4.
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one survival rogue talent gains Heal (Wis) and Survival (Wis) as class skills.
- A novice of survival gains the Evasion feature. Whenever she is confronted by an attack that allows for a Reflex save to take only half damage, the survivor takes no damage with a successful saving throw. In addition, she selects one of the following conditions and becomes immune to it: Checked, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, fascinated, fatigued, shaken, and sickened.
- An apprentice of survival gains a slippery mind, which represents her ability to wriggle free from magical compulsion. If she is affected by an enchantment spell or effect and fails her save, she can attempt another save in in one round at the same DC. She gets only this one extra chance to succeed at her saving throw.
In addition, she selects another condition to gain immunity against. She may select this condition from the list above, or she may gain an immunity to a stronger condition based on one she has already selected. This new condition (and the associated condition that she must first gain immunity to) are: blind (dazzled), blow away (checked), exhausted (fatigued), frightened (shaken), nauseated (sickened).
- An expert of survival gains the Improved Evasion Feature. Now, if she fails a Reflex saving throw against an effect that allows a saving throw for half damage (see above), the survivor takes only half damage. In addition, the survivor becomes immune to one additional condition of her choice.
- A master of survival is exceedingly difficult to kill, and receives a bonus on all saving throws to resist effects that result in death (such as death from massive damage, the petrifying gaze of a medusa, and all death effects) equal to half her class level. In addition, she becomes immune to one final condition of her choice.
Class Skills: A rogue with at least one trapsmithing rogue talent gains Craft (Traps) (Int) and Disable Device (Dex) as class skills.
- A novice of trapsmithing gains a bonus on Disable Device skill checks equal to half of her class level (minimum of +1). She may use the Disable Device skill to disarm magical traps. If she successfully disables a trap with a skill check that overcomes the DC by at least 10 points, he can study the trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it without actually disarming it; she can rig the trap so any creature she wishes can bypass it as well. Her familiarity with traps and methods of concealing them grants her Trap Sense, with a +2 bonus. See the description of this feature under the barbarian character class. Note that trap sense bonuses from multiple sources stack, unlike other bonuses.
- An apprentice trapsmith is able to disarm and disable devices faster than her peers, whether disarming a trap or sabotaging another device. She may use the Disable Device skill on a simple device with a move action, a tricky device as a standard action, a difficult device as a full-round action, or a wicked device with 1d4 rounds worth of work; she may open a lock as a standard action. In addition, her Trap Sense bonus improves by +2.
- An expert of trapsmithing does not accidentally trigger a trap with a failed Disable Device check unless she fails by 10 or more. In addition, she can take 10 on Disable Device checks, even if distracted or threatened. Moreover, she can use the Disable Device skill to open a lock as a move action. Lastly, her Trap Sense bonus improves by a further +2.
- A master trapsmith is entitled to automatically make a Perception check to notice the presence of a trap, whenever she passes within 10 feet of either the trap itself or its trigger. For all purposes, this check is resolved as if the rogue were actively searching. Lastly, her Trap Sense bonus improves by a further +2.
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i like that your Sneak Attack has a clause for critical hits that allow single re-roll of 1s. neat idea. i might bite.
it was always a little curious to me that Sneak Attack didn't interact in any way with critical hits, since they are both loosely based on 'precision' thematically.
maybe, to favor keen (x19-20) and impact (x3) critical hit profiles more equally, the 1-re-roll can be done a number of times per critical hit equal to it's crit multiplier?
that is, up to twice for a dagger, thrice for a punching dagger?...
(suddenly this is too much wording...?)
I really like some of the abilities but probably wont use the class as is. Lucky (Ex) have a problem though there is no encounter mechanic in pathfinder,limited to only once per encounter doesn't make much sense. You can limit it to 1/round or 1/ 10 min or so.
i like that your Sneak Attack has a clause for critical hits that allow single re-roll of 1s. neat idea. i might bite.
it was always a little curious to me that Sneak Attack didn't interact in any way with critical hits, since they are both loosely based on 'precision' thematically.
maybe, to favor keen (x19-20) and impact (x3) critical hit profiles more equally, the 1-re-roll can be done a number of times per critical hit equal to it's crit multiplier?
that is, up to twice for a dagger, thrice for a punching dagger?...
(suddenly this is too much wording...?)
Wording for that wouldn't be so much of an issue, I just think it's a little too much, personally. You're already getting a benefit out of having a higher crit weapon - the higher crit itself. Sneak attack is a supplemental feature, it isn't meant to deliver power house attacks. That role is best left to martials, such as fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and my rewritten monk. Not to mention that there aren't any other abilities that I can think of off the top of my head that let you reroll something more than once per round. Even if you have multiple versions of Slippery Mind or related features, for example, it's specifically pointed out that you can only use one ability each round.
I really like some of the abilities but probably wont use the class as is. Lucky (Ex) have a problem though there is no encounter mechanic in pathfinder,limited to only once per encounter doesn't make much sense. You can limit it to 1/round or 1/ 10 min or so.
I'm not sure where you drew that conclusion from. The encounter mechanic is the entire game, with the sole exception of down time and time skips. Encounters are even defined on page 397 of the Core Rulebook, and the Game Mastery Guide goes into further detail.
EDIT: And now that Ultimate Campaign is out, I guess things like the kingdom rules also exist outside the encounter mechanic.
I'm not sure where you drew that conclusion from. The encounter mechanic is the entire game, with the sole exception of down time and time skips. Encounters are even defined on page 397 of the Core Rulebook, and the Game Mastery Guide goes into further detail.EDIT: And now that Ultimate Campaign is out, I guess things like the kingdom rules also exist outside the encounter mechanic.
Yes it exist as a gamemastering term, what i meant was it doesn't exist from rules or verisimilute perspective. When an encounter starts or end? Depending on this ability can take rounds to days to "recharge". Unlike World of Darkness or similar systems there is no spell or ability with 1 encounter or 1 scene in duration line. Encounter is a vague term, a battle of wits between 2 characters can take months but acts as a encounter (you calculate apl and cr, award exp after it ends) it isn't a duration or use limit mechanic. There isn't any power that use it as such i am aware of.
Who brought the diamond dust?
I'm not sure I get the reference, Thomas?
When an encounter starts or end? Depending on this ability can take rounds to days to "recharge". Unlike World of Darkness or similar systems there is no spell or ability with 1 encounter or 1 scene in duration line. Encounter is a vague term, a battle of wits between 2 characters can take months but acts as a encounter (you calculate apl and cr, award exp after it ends) it isn't a duration or use limit mechanic.
If you have a single encounter in your game that takes "months" to resolve, or any extended length of time, that's not a problem with the rules not being clear enough - that's poor design on part of the GM. The start and end of encounters are very cleanly defined by the second sentence under "Designing Encounters," page 397 of (my) Core Rulebook. There's nothing vague about it.
"An encounter is any event that puts a specific problem before the PCs that they must solve."
Did the players solve a problem? Did they beat the bad guys? Did they disarm the trap? Did they successfully negotiate with the hostile king to end the war? Congratulations, that was an encounter.
If you're experiencing encounters that take more than a single scene to resolve, then it's much more likely you're encountering a series of closely related encounters. Take, for example, a quest to negotiate with a hostile king to end a war between two nations. A single adventure based on this premise might include all of the following:
- Gathering information and intelligence that will help the PC's get past the king's security.
- Actually physically getting to the king's location.
- Executing a plan of infiltration, so they can avoid the bulk of the king's guarding forces.
- A skirmish with the king's personal guards.
- Finally negotiating a peace - or at least a cease fire - with the king in question.
Each one of those steps is its own encounter. The adventure includes stealth encounters, social encounters, one or more combat encounters, and role-playing encounters. But even though they are all part of the same adventure, each "scene" has its own specific challenge to be overcome.
Yes it exist as a gamemastering term, what i meant was it doesn't exist from rules or verisimilute perspective.
What are you talking about? Those selections I quoted you before are nothing BUT rules. Rules on how to design encounters, rules as to what constitutes an encounter, rules as to how encounters can be resolved - Hell, there's even an entire table that does nothing but tell you how much treasure should be awarded at the end of encounters to keep the PC's appropriate to the Wealth-By-Level chart, which the ENTIRE combat system is based on!
There isn't any power that use it as such i am aware of.
There are.
- From the rage feature of the barbarian: "...but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat."
- From the "Initiative" subheading, under the "How Combat Works" section of chapter 8: "Even if you can’t take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter.
- From the rules for readying an action: "Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action."
- From the rules regarding avalanches, in chapter 13, I believe: "If all characters fail their Perception checks to determine the encounter distance..."
The emphasis is my own, of course.
That's just from the Core Rulebook. A class feature, two universal options ad rules that apply to all characters, and an environmental effect; encounter distance is also something defined in combat, I believe, when the rules describe surprise, or close to it. I didn't bother going through APG, UM, UC, or ARG.
Actually, Cloudwalker, you made me wonder, so I did go through some of the other books to see what I could find. Just for s~&~s and giggles, here's what I came across:
From the Advanced Player's Guide:
- The feat, Parting Shot, is usable only once per encounter.
- Like a barbarian and rage, a stalwart defender's ability to enter a defensive stance specifically mentions that it is not limited per encounter.
From Ultimate Magic:
- The rules for custom spell design often refer to the usefulness of a new spell by its weight in a single encounter.
- The feat Grant Initiative can be used at the start of each encounter.
From the Advanced Race Guide:
- The swordmaster (a rogue archetype) has a Trance class feature that, again like barbarian rage or stalwart defender defensive stance, specifically points out that its uses aren't limited per encounter.
Rules are presented for making encounters more challenging for groups including advanced or monstrous PC's.
From Ultimate Campaign:
- Encounters are used to determine the effects and mechanics of Story Feats.
- Encounters are factored into downtime.
That's just what I was able to find. I'm sure there are more examples out there. I didn't troll through any of the Golarion campaign setting material, the adventure paths, my copy of the old Mythic Adventures playtest, or other products.
As you quoted yourself an encounter can be anything, an encounter taking years at game time can be resolved with 2-3 rolls at the table. Longtime it takes doesn't make it bad design.
Rules you first quoted still doesn't use it as a duration or use limit mechanic which i originally said i think doesn't exist. But parting shot feat is a clear case so i was wrong(should look more closely next time). Still i think it is not a good mechanic as it is inconsistent with rest based or gametime based abilities. You could use it 3 times in a minute in many short encounters but cannot in 1 min long fight twice uhh...
Who brought the diamond dust?I'm not sure I get the reference, Thomas?
The title? Resurrecting the Rogue?
** spoiler omitted **
Ok I'll give you its not dust anymore :P
...D'oh.
You got me. You're good.
And I've already made some tweaking to the class. Meh.
Instead of Stealth Sense, a rogue of 8th level gains the following feature.
Distraction functions only when a creature is able to either only see or hear the rogue, depending on whether the rogue's attempt at Stealth was to hide or move without making sound. This is left to the GM's discretion. If a creature is able to fully focus on the rogue and both sees and hears her, Distraction does not have any effect. This ability can only be used during any given attempt at Stealth. If the same creature detects the rogue again, this ability has no further effect.
Additionally, the Master talent of the Awareness tree reads as follows.
If a rogue takes more time to study her environment, she can to refine this gut feeling into more pertinant information. With a second full-round action, the rogue becomes aware of how many creatures within range are using the Stealth skill. With a third full-round action, she can to pin-point the location of each creature within range. With a fourth full-round action, she also becomes aware of creatures using magical forms of concealment (such as invisibility, silence or related effects, and even Illusion spells that alter one's appearence). Each of these rounds must be spent consecutively in order to gain additional benefit from this feature.
As you quoted yourself an encounter can be anything, an encounter taking years at game time can be resolved with 2-3 rolls at the table. Longtime it takes doesn't make it bad design.
I've been taking a while, trying to figure out how best to respond to this. You either don't understand what an encounter is sipposed to entail, or you're intentionally side-stepping the fact that I explained it several times and provided a specific example.
If you need "official" proof, crack open any published adventure - either one-shots or adventure paths. Do you ever see a section that provides a challenge by presenting it with a CR or encounter level and an XP award fof overcoming the challenge, that lasts more than one scene or event?
Rules you first quoted still doesn't use it as a duration or use limit mechanic which i originally said i think doesn't exist. But parting shot feat is a clear case so i was wrong(should look more closely next time). Still i think it is not a good mechanic as it is inconsistent with rest based or gametime based abilities. You could use it 3 times in a minute in many short encounters but cannot in 1 min long fight twice uhh...
Yeah, that would make sense...
If your rogue could actually control the forces of luck. This ability being an Ex feature instead of Su implies pretty clearly that you - the player - are using this ability. Your rogue no more makes a conscious choice to call upon luck or fortune than you do when you wish someoen good luck. This ability simply represents those times when luck seems to take a NOTICEABLE role in the rogue's life.
Sometimes people seem to be lucky constantly for a short while, other times it only comes to them sparingly. Have you heard of the phrase, a "lucky streak?"
OK. I am a little late to the party here, but let me offer some feedback and insight, if you fancy hearing another self-proclaimed expert rattle on.
Why is the rogue weak? The rogue has a stated role, and he can perform it adequately.
Answer: Because other classes can also do this role, and do it as well as or better than the rogue. The bard is the master of skills, with versatile performance and flat bonuses on knowledge skills, he can make a little skill go a long way. Rangers are not so good, but have so much utility all over the place (combat, companion, spells, as well as skills) it's hard NOT to be useful when you are a ranger.
So in improving the rogue, he does not necessarily need to do his role better, he needs more utility beyond what he can currently do. The rogue talents are a great vehicle to do this, but in practice are not very good. They need improving:
I do like the idea of expanding the rogue talents, but you can leave the mechanic the same, just add new ones.
This says it all. KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. At the same time I LIKE the scope of the talents you have selected, and I like giving the rogue a talent at first level. Your various rogue talents could be trees of individual talents taken in sequence.
I do not like the idea of giving the rogue ki. Monks have ki, it's a metaphysical semi-mystical power, not in the keeping for rogues. What rogues need is not mysticism, it's LUCK.
I'd create a luck pool that allows the rogue to do daring stuff that may be mechanically similar to some ki uses, but is functionally very different and an Extraordinary ability. I would include abilities like:
Desperate dodge (+4 to AC for one round)
Concentration (perform an action like picking a lock under pressure in a standard action)
Skedaddle (+20' to movement for one round)
Lucky Hit (make a single attack a sneak attack even if you couldn't normally sneak attack)
Maybe add other abilities as more rogue talents.