Going off topic, but if we talk so passionately about favorite DC heroes and what we'd like done with them, why doesn't someone run a DCA RPG at the play by post forum? Would probably be pretty cool...which version?
I was thinking the current one (Mutants and Masterminds 3rd ed).
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Back to topic somewhat:
Can Lynda Carter Save Wonder Woman?
Lynda Carter shares her thoughts on why she things the recent TV show efforts failed and the points the writers are missing. (Mainly, that Wonder Woman is supposed to be kind.)
I like a lot of what she has to say; I realize others may disagree. She's not a writer but she's had good reason to think about the character--and after all, the Wonder Woman most of the mainstream public picture when she is mentioned is Lynda Carter's version.
The reason why they're talking to her now is a segue from the fact she is supporting DC Entertainment's We Can Be Heroes fundraiser, which supports aid to the hungry in the horn of Africa. As a thank you to those who donate $10,000 this week, they have the opportunity to meet Ms. Carter amongst a number of other perks. The other thank you gifts this week are also Wonder Woman related.
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I came to a realization. Any attempt to write Wonder Woman: The Movie is doomed.
I started by thinking about how I would try to combine elements of the Mercury Age (New 52, Odyssey), Bronze Age (Post Crisis) and before. I had an interesting take. But I won't bother to detail it for one simple reason.
It is my take. Putting my mark on the character.
Any version that isn't an exact recreation of "the definitive version" will be met with that complaint by those whose definitive version wasn't included. Because there is no definitive Wonder Woman.
As a result, the writer must create his own take. And if every reboot in the last decade is to judge - a significant number of people who actually liked the character before will not like it.
Much like the New 52 version.
Poor Wonder Woman, sign without signifier.
I don't think it's doomed, per se, but that is why any work with the IP is, in the words of DC's president, "tricky."
But I think it is better for someone to try to do their take than try to do something that pleases everyone. Honestly, I think that's where the David E Kelley TV show went wrong... there was an early draft script where apparently Diana was a little Ally McBeal-ish... in a way I can understand why people found that off-putting, but to the complaints of Wonder Woman being "too girly," DEK and co responded by shoehorning in scenes where Wonder Woman acted more like a stereotypical grizzled macho action hero, snapping innocent people's necks and generally showing no empathy whatsoever. They reacted to "girly is bad" by making Diana do a bodyswap with Deathstroke, when I think all the critics probably wanted was for Diana to be a little less self-pitying.
(And if you think "feminine hero" means "self-pitying" and "masculine hero" means "cold-hearted murderer" then you've got some serious issues around gender perception on all sides.)
Maybe the original DEK script would have been awful, but it might have been at least enjoyably awful--as it came more from his genuine ideas and inspiration--than the joyless mess that the Wonder Woman pilot actually was.
As with any character really, I think if you try to right the "true" Wonder Woman to you, than trying to write what you think Wonder Woman should be, then you've got a better chance at coming up with a product everyone will at least enjoy. Most importantly, to write Wonder Woman--or again any character--right, you have to love her. You have to be passionate about her, whatever your take is, and not just do an assignment and be fearful about getting it right.
I have seen superhero movies and shows where I necessarily didn't agree with the total take on the character, but if they felt genuinely written and performed, I still enjoyed them.
I mean, it's IMPOSSIBLE to please all fans of every superhero anyway. Look at the fans of the Dark Knight trilogy versus its detractors, both dedicated sets of Batman fans, both stubbornly at odds with each other. Or bring up "Zod fight in Man of Steel" to Superman fans and watch the kryptonite-poo get flung.
If we worried that "not all the fans would be pleased by one take" then we'd never see ANY stories/characters cross over into different media. We'd have no superhero films or TV shows, no LoTR or Harry Potter films, no Star Wars novels or video games. That would make some people happy even. But me, I LIKE seeing how different media allow you to highlight different aspects of a character or narrative -- yes, it means the story is going to change, yes, it means different audiences are going to be targeted or adjusted for, but ultimately seeing the same spirit reflected in these different forms--if it's done well--is exciting and fascinating to me. I think it's possible to do live action Wonder Woman--it was done 30 years ago when she had already been retconned a bunch of times and had a divided fanbase*, and it can be done again.
*
Awesome post.
Not sure if we did this before in this thread, but maybe if we all put forth our own version of wonder woman, perhaps using the awesome rundown you posted earlier, it might help us all to see what page were all on.
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Awesome post.
Not sure if we did this before in this thread, but maybe if we all put forth our own version of wonder woman, perhaps using the awesome rundown you posted earlier, it might help us all to see what page were all on.
What's yours?
I'm adaptable on a number of things--the only essential is that she must be warm, kind, with a good sense of humor. Well, and be an Amazon and all that.
But if I were to say, write a Wonder Woman script (yes, there is totally an unfinished draft on my hard drive, I just have no idea what I'm doing), this is probably what I'd work with, drawing from my list with some minor alterations/clarifications:
Origins
- Was Amazon born human, granted agelessness by Aphrodite, and developed super strength and abilities via Amazonian martial arts training.
- Amazons were rescued from depradations of men (Roman soldiers, most likely) thousands of years ago by the Greek goddesses who gave them Paradise Island where they could build a society based on peace and love, training in war only to protect themselves and their home and for personal discipline.
- Island is officially called "New Themyscira" (old Themyscira being the historic city on the coast of the Black Sea) and nicknamed "Paradise Island".
Wonder Woman is...
- Strong enough to lift a car
- Has super leaping only, cannot fly (although I'm ambivalent about that one)
- Has animal *empathy* but can't necessarily mind control them
Wonder Woman's gear comprises of
- Bracelets deflect bullets
- Tiara becomes a boomerang (I've become enamored of this after playing Wonder Woman in Lego Batman 2)
- Tiara can be used to communicate with Paradise Island/Themyscira
- Wonder Woman does not have her super strength in the form of Diana Prince, but there is no way to depower her in her Wonderness.
- Magic lasso forces people to tell truth
- Magic lasso can modify people's memories to a limited extent (forget the last five minutes, so the interrogatees can't remember what information they divulged)
- I am undecided on the invisible jet. Maybe some kind of personal stealth vehicle. Like an invisible ornithopter. It would be Amazon tech.
Secret Identity
- Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, because the existence of Paradise Island is a secret and she must protect it.
or
- Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, to give herself privacy and to access things a high profile superhero would be noticed accessing.
- Diana's "normal" job is a secret agent of some kind
Supporting Cast
- Etta Candy (also working at agency)
- Helena and Vanessa Kapatelis
- Some secret agent dudes
- A huge rotating cast of Amazons I'm not even going to start on
- Absolutely no Steve Trevor whatsoever. A Damsel in Distress is boring even when the damsel has a penis.
Wonder Woman's Mission is
- To fight metahuman threats to the world
- To fight terrorists
- To teach "Man's World" the Amazonian way of love, truth, and peace
She went on this mission because
- The Amazons thought it was a good idea
Wonder Woman's Personality is
- Warm, kind, and fighting only as a last resort
- Down to earth with a good sense of humor
- Worldly wise about some things, utterly innocent about others
- Trusting and amiable
Sadly, that ends up looking like the TV show, mostly. But mine would have actual character development! ;)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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- Wonder Woman does not have her super strength in the form of Diana Prince, but there is no way to depower her in her Wonderness.
I wasn't a big fan of this, until I thought about it for a minute. I don't want her to be the Goddess of Truth, but I think it's important that she represent truth in Man's World. (In Pathfinder terms, an Oracle of Truth.)
And so she can't disguise herself as Diana Prince, while retaining all the powers her form bestows on her, because that would be deceptive. But she can become Diana Price honestly.
Why would it be deceptive? She is who she is, no matter what she's wearing. It's the problematic nature of Man's World that requires her to disguise herself, not any deception on her part. The idea that she has to be some weakling because she's not dressed in a Bikini smacks of the era they took her powers completely away, and made her into Diana Prince Secret Agent.- Wonder Woman does not have her super strength in the form of Diana Prince, but there is no way to depower her in her Wonderness.I wasn't a big fan of this, until I thought about it for a minute. I don't want her to be the Goddess of Truth, but I think it's important that she represent truth in Man's World. (In Pathfinder terms, an Oracle of Truth.)
And so she can't disguise herself as Diana Prince, while retaining all the powers her form bestows on her, because that would be deceptive. But she can become Diana Price honestly.
I think it makes sense that her powers are suppressed in the form of Diana Prince so she can't slip up and accidentally break something, or whatever.
And while it may not technically be honesty, I think Diana can have integrity while doing what she needs to protect her identity.
Also, I think you could also always start it that she has the secret identity and then eventually she's discovered and it's just gotten rid of. After all, even when she's often depicted with the alter ego, she's often terrible at keeping her secret (but I think that can be kind of fun and shows a certain side of her personality very well).
Personal Origins and Source of Power
- Was Amazon born human, granted agelessness by Aphrodite, and developed super strength and abilities via Amazonian martial arts training. (Sensation Comics)
- Was fashioned from clay and infused with life and power by the gods (which gods also vary--sometimes it's all the gods, sometimes it's only the goddesses) (Wonder Woman Vol. 1 No. 1, with numerous variations)
- Is the daughter of Zeus and Hippolyta (New 52)
Origins of the Amazons and why they live in Paradise Island/Themyscira:
- Were rescued from depradations of men thousands of years ago by the goddess Aphrodite who gave them Paradise Island where they could build a society based on peace and love, training in war only to protect themselves and their home and for personal discipline
- Were enslaved by Heracles, freed themselves when they recovered the magic girdle he had stolen from them, and found Paradise Island/Themyscira. (This might also be part of the Aphrodite story as well, I'm not sure, but there's a few variations.)
- Were the rebirthed souls of women enslaved by men given new life by the goddess Artemis (all of them were formed from clay at this point, but IIRC only Wonder Woman got the extra special powers). Then they still get enslaved by Heracles for some reason.
- Name changes back and forth between "Paradise Island," "Themyscira" and "New Themyscira."
Wonder Woman's Powers
(Strength Level)
- Strong enough to lift a car
- Strong enough to lift a plane
- Strong as Superman (which has also varied)
(Flight Capacity)
- Has super leaping only, cannot fly
- Cannot truly fly, but "glides on air currents"
- Flies
(Communication/Telepathic Abilities)
- Sometimes can communicate empathically with animals. Sometimes can't.
- While often described as having the "wisdom of Athena" it only sometimes has been reflected as a sort of preternatural awareness
- Can or cannot tell someone is telling the truth (without the lasso)
Wonder Woman's Gear
- Bracelets deflect bullets
- Bracelets deflect everything
- Bracelets when banged together can create a force field
- Bracelets when banged together can summon lightning
- Tiara is just a tiara
- Tiara becomes a boomerang
- Tiara can be used to communicate with Paradise Island/Themyscira
- Tiara summons the Invisible Jet
- Wonder Woman has an Invisible Jet
- Wonder Woman does not have an invisible jet
- The Invisible Jet is just a jet
- The invisible jet is actually a telepathic alien called a lansanarian that can take multiple forms
- The invisible jet was invented by WayneTech
- Wonder Woman's belt when removed depowers her
- Wonder Woman's belt when removed does nothing
- Wonder Woman's bracelets, when chained, depower her
- Wonder Woman's bracelets, when chained, do nothing
- Magic lasso forces people to tell truth
- Magic lasso forces people to SEE the truth of their souls (and thus can make them repent)
- Magic lasso can modify people's memories
- Magic lasso can force whoever is within to do whatever Diana says
- Magic lasso vibrations can be used to enable outfit change
Secret Identity -
Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, because the existence of Paradise Island is a secret and she must protect it.
- Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, because she feels she needs to see what life is like as an ordinary person
- Wonder Woman has a secret identity, Diana Prince, to give herself privacy and to access things a high profile superhero would be noticed accessing.
- All or none of the above.
- Wonder Woman would NEVER have a secret identity because she is the embodiment of truth and would never lie about anything.
- Wonder Woman does not have a secret identity because Paradise Island/Themyscira is NOT a secret and she is in fact its ambassador
- Diana's "normal" job is an ambassador
- Diana's "normal" job is a yeoman in the WAVES
- Diana's "normal" job is a Navy officer (lieutenant, IIRC)
- Diana's "normal" job is an agent of the Department of Metahuman Affairs
- Diana's "normal" job is working at Taco Whiz.
Supporting Cast
-Etta Candy and Steve Trevor, young, as relative peers
- Etta Candy and Steve Trevor older, married to each other
- Other variations on Etta Candy and Steve Trevor
- The Kapatelises and the Sandsmarks
- Boyfriend named Trevor Barnes
- Huge honking ambassadorial staff, including a gay minotaur who is a chef
- Boyfriend named Tom Tresser, plus a bunch of other DOMA agents
- A huge rotating cast of Amazons I'm not even going to start on
Wonder Woman's Mission is
- To fight Hitler and the Nazis
- To fight metahuman threats to the world
- To fight terrorists
- To teach "Man's World" the Amazonian way of love, truth, and peace
- To use brutal fighting techniques that are not loving, truthful, or peaceful to fight metahuman threats to the world
She went on this mission because
- Of stuff to do with Steve Trevor crashing on Paradise Island
- Of stuff to do with Diana Trevor, Steve's mother, crashing on Themyscira
- The Amazons thought it was a good idea
Wonder Woman's Personality is
- Warm, kind, and fighting only as a last resort
- Cold, brutal, and bloodthirsty
- Lofty and noble, hard to relate to
- Down to earth with a good sense of humor
- Worldly wise
- Utterly innocent
- Trusting and amiable
- Aloof, wary, and difficult to befriend
- All or none of the above
Had to repost the spoiler because its the near perfect blueprint to work from and I'd like to refer to it as much as possible.
- Warm, kind, and fighting only as a last resort
"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
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For personality, I'd prefer someone who sees the potential for goodness in everyone, but is *not* naïve or easily 'played,' or afraid to lay the smack down on someone who makes that mistake, that 'nice' equals 'gullible.' So, kind, yes, but tempered with wisdom.
Too many heroic sorts, even those who *aren't* terribly nice (and are more 'protagonists' than 'heroes,' and, instead of being 'good guys' are kind of 'not as bad as the other guys,' in a sort of lowest-common-denominator of 'goodness'), end up carrying the Idiot Ball to further a storyline. I'd prefer if Diana pretty much *never* fall for that, and throw the Idiot Ball right back in the face of anyone who tries to manipulate her or take advantage of her good and decent nature.
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- Warm, kind, and fighting only as a last resort"Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry."
(Sorry.)
For personality, I'd prefer someone who sees the potential for goodness in everyone, but is *not* naïve or easily 'played,' or afraid to lay the smack down on someone who makes that mistake, that 'nice' equals 'gullible.' So, kind, yes, but tempered with wisdom.
Too many heroic sorts, even those who *aren't* terribly nice (and are more 'protagonists' than 'heroes,' and, instead of being 'good guys' are kind of 'not as bad as the other guys,' in a sort of lowest-common-denominator of 'goodness'), end up carrying the Idiot Ball to further a storyline. I'd prefer if Diana pretty much *never* fall for that, and throw the Idiot Ball right back in the face of anyone who tries to manipulate her or take advantage of her good and decent nature.
I think if Wonder Woman could be naive but a fast learner. If you're portraying her early in her superheroing career, where she's just getting used to "man's world," you might see her take someone at face value only to be betrayed--but once she learned that lesson it wouldn't happen again.
For personality, I'd prefer someone who sees the potential for goodness in everyone, but is *not* naïve or easily 'played,' or afraid to lay the smack down on someone who makes that mistake, that 'nice' equals 'gullible.' So, kind, yes, but tempered with wisdom.
Too many heroic sorts, even those who *aren't* terribly nice (and are more 'protagonists' than 'heroes,' and, instead of being 'good guys' are kind of 'not as bad as the other guys,' in a sort of lowest-common-denominator of 'goodness'), end up carrying the Idiot Ball to further a storyline. I'd prefer if Diana pretty much *never* fall for that, and throw the Idiot Ball right back in the face of anyone who tries to manipulate her or take advantage of her good and decent nature.
its become an awful trope over the years.
<pedant>It's Bana, for Bana Mighdall ("Temple of Women"), not Banu</pedant>
1) Wonder Woman's current reboot is excellent.
2) In these current times, anything but a violent Wonder Woman film where she's kicking arse in a gritty manner befitting an ancient amazon will probably not do well in theaters. These are the times we live in.
3) YMMV of course.
As for the Dark Knight movies, 1 and 2 were excellent and close enough to canon to make me overlook the parts that were not. 3 was an insult to the franchise in every way.
2) In these current times, anything but a violent Wonder Woman film where she's kicking arse in a gritty manner befitting an ancient amazon will probably not do well in theaters. These are the times we live in.
I really disagree there. First, in general I've seen a lot of railing against the "dark and gritty" hero, especially as people just associate it with ripping off Batman, and just not everyone can be Batman. I think some people are ready for a change.
And given that the "dark and gritty" Wonder Woman TV show didn't make it, with several previewers and reviewers reacting very badly in particular against the violent and gritty portions and Wonder Woman's jerk demeanor, that suggests that is not what a lot of audiences want from Wonder Woman in particular.
I can't find a link to some of the reviews I've seen from people who were actually invited to the preview--if I find them I'll post them, as they had some particularly salient points--but there's later reviews like this that cover similar themes:
the real problem was the unlikeability of Wonder Woman. She is an angry, violent, mopey character, and not at all the Wonder Woman we’re used to from the comics and other shows. Her methods are terrible, her character is poorly defined, and in the end you either are upset with or feel bad for her.
Hollywood might surely make a Wonder Woman movie that is dark, gritty, and violent because they think that's what people want, but I'd make a call that it would not actually be liked or successful.
I'd also note some successful superhero movies have avoided the grit and that's helped their success. Captain America, for one, who is NOT a gritty hero, he's a nice guy. I'd say the Iron Man films, while they can get dark, have a lighthearted side to them, a sense of humor, that is in part a contribution to their success.
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Kind of a pity, the Coda (and Zealot, when she wasn't being too 'Zealot-y') were fascinating and fun. All female warrior-cult of personality turned assassins after being given long life and ridiculous endurance by exposure to alien blood? Whacky! I wouldn't want them anywhere *near* Wonder Woman and the Amazons (save, perhaps, as philosophically opposed foes), but it's not like the DCU was too small for two ancient orders of female warriors.
Turning the Amazons *into* the Coda seems like a terrible waste, particularly in a DCU that has, in the past, had room for anywhere from three to six distinct cities full of differently shaped and colored aquatic people...
Now I'm all nostalgic for Image titles that vanished without a trace, like Weapon Zero and Spirit of the Tao and Ascension. It's all Authority this and Authority that, when Stormwatch was, IMO, a much better book. The transition to the Authority reminded me of when Liefield took over the New Mutants and turned them into super-extreme shock-sensationalist 'X-Force!' or whatever. Yawn. Storytelling has left the building, all that remains is posing, posturing and 'being badass.'
In the recent Justice League run, I've noticed a lot of that sensibility, as well. The heroes seem to need to pose and quip and make a showy entrance, as if the sole purpose of the art is to be a pin-up in a preview on some news site a week before release, and not to tell a story.
That made a certain amount of sense, at Image, where 'the inmates ran the asylum' (artists owned the company, and some of them had only marginal writing or editing or publishing or management skills, and others, it seemed sometimes, none at all), but DC is now doing the same sort of thing, it seems.
I think that's probably going to be the number one issue with a potential Wonder Woman revamp, is that the writer(s) are going to have to sit down with a list like Deathquaker's and decide which of these things are going to be true, and which are not, and which might be more or less of one or the other, depending on the situation, and have their characterization so hammered down that the storyline almost doesn't matter, because, based on that characterization, the writer should know stone-cold how Diana will react. They don't need to try and figure out halfway through a storyline if she's a ruthlessly practical warrior, or a kind-hearted wise soul, or if she's a 'spirit of truth' who would be utterly unwilling to have a secret identity or work as a spy, or if she's got a bit of pragmatism built in as well, and will point out that while truth is important, that doesn't mean that one has to go around telling everyone stuff that's none of their business (like her home address, or exactly how to get to Themiscrya, or her exact age...).
I fragging love the coda, but they are not what I want wonder woman to be.
Also set, great points re image. Interesting that it has come full circle. Living in interesting times, etc.
Sadly, Hollywood would have no problem with this part--but character and story?
As far as fan trailers go, I think this one at least deserves some props for actually trying to show personality and the character's life outside of asskicking. There is also asskicking of course, but it's got more actual "story" to it:
I think the premise is a little too... I don't know, "cute," but I appreciate the effort to create a character here, not just a fight scene. I agree many fan trailers look cool but are so combat focused it doesn't give you a feel of what they would do any different than say, as QXL99 intimates, a major Hollywood producer.
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Fight scenes shot in slow motion needs to go the way of the dodo, though.
How would I reboot wonder woman? I wouldn't. I would pay my wife, one of my best friends and most talented dms and Top 16 rpg superstar 2011 markthomas66 and our own DeathQuaker scads of money to do it.
Thanks man.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Interesting, I'll have to look it up. Thanks GreenDragon.
I've been rewatching JLU. I'd forgotten that it strongly implied/suggested that Dianna is Hades daughter. Whether 'your mother and I sculpted you from clay' is accurate or a metaphor (or a cover story) is left vauge.
Is this the Smallville comic, GreenDragon1133?
They've cast Wonder Woman for the next Man of Steel film, and presumably for the Justice League movie that will follow it. It's Gal Gadot of the Fast & the Furious franchise.
A somewhat exotic look? Makes sense...
I hope she works out for the part. Her arms are way too skinny to be an Amazon's.
I hope she works out for the part. Her arms are way too skinny to be an Amazon's.This bothers me too and I hope somehow this works out but I'm not seeing it yet.
I'd worry about someone asking her to do it, though. I don't recall that many stories about actresses bulking up for an action-part.
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I worry more about the fact she is being introduced in a man of steel sequel by Zach Snyder where they also need to reboot Batman as well as introduce several new villains.
I like the idea--we can get a tease/taste of WW, then she can be fleshed out in her own feature later
I worry more about the fact she is being introduced in a man of steel sequel by Zach Snyder where they also need to reboot Batman as well as introduce several new villains.
Well, I considered the Zach Snyder worry to not be something you need to state - it's understood.
I hope she works out for the part. Her arms are way too skinny to be an Amazon's.This bothers me too and I hope somehow this works out but I'm not seeing it yet.I'd worry about someone asking her to do it, though. I don't recall that many stories about actresses bulking up for an action-part.
The only one that comes to mind is Linda Hamilton for the second Terminator. Maybe they can just give her a similar trainer/exercise plan as Henry Cavil & Ben Affleck? It's not like they always walk around with such ripped bodies. ;)
Lots of characters worked in The Avengers, as I recall...
Lots of characters worked in The Avengers, as I recall...But most of them had been introduced in their own movies (Iron Man, Cap, Thor, Hulk) or as bit parts in the other movies before the Avengers (Fury, Hawkeye, the Widow?).
This would be closer to introducing all of them in the second Iron Man movie. Which was actually a Iron Man/Thor crossover.
I think the Marvel method really is the best strategy for setting up team movies. Create an expanded universe and introduce your major components in their own movies. That way you don't spend time on origin stories for all your characters...you can just kick the plot into gear.
DC doesn't want to do this. They want to just skip to the billion dollar Justice League movie, because they don't have faith in developing movies for the non superman/batman characters, and because they are afraid to be seen in imitating Marvel. Same thing I see with the Spiderman movies...they want to go straight to Sinister Six, even though it's extraordinarily difficult to pull off multiple villains in the same movie that you introduce them. So now we get Green Goblin, Electro, and the Rhino all in one movie.
The crappy thing is that while I love the way Marvel has been setting up their universe, they have already sold large chunks off to other studies which they will probably never get back. Marvel can't touch X-men, Spiderman, Fantastic Four, Dr. Doom, etc. DC actually has there entire stable together, but can't seem to get their acts together to figure out what to do with the characters. Oh how I wish the roles were reversed, and DC had sold off their properties and Marvel had everything in house.