So when i started my recent campaign with a twist on point buy to see if i could help mad classes. First i set a hard roof and floor cap at 18 and 8 respectively(before racials are added in). Dumping a score to eight only grants a single point, but every score takes only a single point to raise at every increment. So far our party includes a melee druid a, rogue, and a monk. They used 20 point buy and no dumpstats(after racials). So far they have dealing with cr appropriate situations just fine without any implications that it is too easy. I do plan on introducing some less ability dependent classes into the fold to see how it goes for them. Any see any problems coming in the future?
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Someone on the boards here suggested "rolling point buy", which I have adopted. Essentially, you keep track of your unmodified ability scores. Each level (including 1st), you get an additional point to spend just like point buy. You can bank as many as you like. Increasing an Ability Score costs points equal to the modifier of the new score (minimum one). MAD classes rejoice!
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Looking over it, it seems this would favor SAD classes even more than standard point buy already does. Just as an example, let me post a Monk and a Wizard using Standard PB and Your PB (assuming I understand your method correctly; my understanding is that it costs one per point over 10, 16 = 6 pts, 14 = 4 pts, etc.).
STR 15 (7)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 14 (5)
INT 10
WIS 15 (7)
CHA 7 (-4)
STR 16 (6)
DEX 14 (4)
CON 15 (5)
INT 10
WIS 16 (6)
CHA 8 (-1)
STR 10
DEX 12 (2)
CON 14 (5)
INT 18 (17)
WIS 10
CHA 7 (-4)
STR 10
DEX 14 (4)
CON 18 (8)
INT 18 (8)
WIS 10
CHA 10
At least to me, it looks like the wizard gets an even bigger boost than a monk does with this method. If my conclusion is based on a misunderstanding of how it works, I apologize for the faulty analysis. :)
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Yeah....these changes sound like the opposite of helping MAD catch up. They may make both types able to get higher scores in the end, but anything that lets someone cheaply buy an 18 is going to help SAD more, by default. Limiting to 18 does nothing, the rules already do that.
What you need to do is something much more complex, I'm not sure on the exact figures yet. But basically you'd want to keep or reduce the current costs of reaching 14 or 16, massively spike the costs of a 17 or 18, and give out some more points than normal.
Ideally, for the same point value, you could get this array:
16, 16, 14, 14, 12, 8 (current PB: 30; your PB: 21)
or this array:
18, 16, 12, 10, 8, 8 (current PB: 25; your PB: 14)
Side note: Check out how much cheaper the SAD's min-maxed scores got compared to the more balanced MAD guy's array under your system.
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I'm thinking about trying out an alternative to the current ability advancement (using Belts/Headbands/+1 at 4th levels): giving a few more BP at EACH level. Using the normal BP formula, it's cheaper to improve multiple scores than to top out a single score; this might favor MAD classes in the long run, and encourage SAD classes to diversify because the gain is just a lot bigger.
I do also hate how the current level up setup of +1 point per 4 levels vastly favors SAD classes by making the optimal use to be pumping up the same score each time. One DM I had let you raise two different stats by +1 every 4 levels, and that certainly helped MAD people out, but was also just a straight up improvement for SAD, too.
Maybe if you could choose to get +1 to two different stats at 4th level, then +1 to another two different stats at 6th level, and have the first pair go up again at 10th, 14th, and 18th levels and the 2nd pair go up again at 12th, 16th, and 20th levels? Would end up with +4 to four different stats instead of +5 to 1 stat, but a truly SAD class would still be loathe to choose the new option because it means his primary stat is delayed two levels in going up.
*Shrug* Just an idea...
True enough, it was just a fun experiment with some MAD players.. that being said i still want to play with this idea a little bit. What raising a score to 16, 17 and 18 respectively cost 7 points a piece...or maybe 6.
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I think the current BP formula is actually quite good for MAD characters; buying a decent score in several stats gets you more stat for the same BP than specializing in one stat. For the price of one 17 you can have 13, 14, 14 in three stats.
It's the other ways that let you raise a stat that still favor SAD characters (Belts/Headbands, +1 at 4th levels, age modifiers). Replacing most of those with BP updates on every level will both swing the balance a bit in the direction of MAD, and reduce the need for Big Six Christmas bit.
I think the current BP formula is actually quite good for MAD characters; buying a decent score in several stats gets you more stat for the same BP than specializing in one stat. For the price of one 17 you can have 13, 14, 14 in three stats.
It's the other ways that let you raise a stat that still favor SAD characters (Belts/Headbands, +1 at 4th levels, age modifiers). Replacing most of those with BP updates on every level will both swing the balance a bit in the direction of MAD, and reduce the need for Big Six Christmas bit.
those items are capped at plus two in my games already...i dont know why i cant leave it alone, but how about every point past 15 costs 5 points, so buying a score to 16 costs 10(same as regular point buy), 17 costs 15, and so on.
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point buy is terrible, almost as bad as rolling. use arrays. Just come up with a couple arrays (rolling, point buy, or whatever) then let your players chose them. My favorite array: 18,18,18,18,18,18.
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point buy is terrible, almost as bad as rolling. use arrays. Just come up with a couple arrays (rolling, point buy, or whatever) then let your players chose them. My favorite array: 18,18,18,18,18,18.
The DM for our Way of the Wicked campaign gave us that array before racial modifiers. No one is complaining about their stats.
Lol, that'll make racial modifiers more important
So to reiterate my new direction of point buy is all buys to 15 cost a single point, 16, and 17 cost 5 a piece, and 18 costs 10. Lowest point you can dump to is eight. This system essentially decreases the cost of multiple ability scores for up to fifteen, and increases costs for over sixteen. 15 point buy won't see a lot of difference for SAD classes but MAD classes can eke out a few more points. As you increase the point the advantage goes even more to the characters looking to diversify scores versus investing heavily in one. In such a system you could get away with banning dumping all together. P.S. costs are added not overwritten.
Let the MAD classes use the alternate point buy system...
so now I broke it down by cost, and compared it to cost for normal point buy. considering reducing the cost to bring a score to 18.
11, 1 point (same as normal)
12, 2 points (same as normal)
13, 3 points (same as normal)
14, 4 points (1 point cheaper)
15, 5 Points (2 points cheaper)
16, 10 Points (same as normal)
17, 15 points (2 points more expensive)
18, 25 points (8 points more expensive)
Dot
I vastly prefer any system which grants ability points with higher frequency.
We experimented with starting at 10, with 4 ability points to start. After that, 1 ability point was granted each level. It made leveling up way more fun, and it was interesting the way your character's power curve was affected.
If you're trying to help out the MAD classes, give the players an array instead of point buy or rolling.
I use 15, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10.
Even though this works out to something like 27 or 28 point buy, it doesn't make for overpowered characters. A nice benefit of this array is that it makes for more well-rounded characters. The rogue is good at combat and at various skills. The fighter qualifies for a few feats that require a good intelligence without having to sacrifice fighting ability. The sorcerer doesn't die immediately if she spends a few rounds in combat.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Thats only 19 point buy on this system. I do find (personally speaking) that my players like point buy because it makes it puts more character creation in their hands. In the past i have offered a choice of point buy or array, and point buy is always taken even when the array would have been a better choice. It doesn't help that i only have three players and either a monk or rogue is played in a game session. So i started this zany idea because my group hates rolling scores as well. Though thats do to ridiculously bad luck on one too many occasion.
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I want to try giving normal point buy, then giving an extra point at each level up. Rather than increasing one score every four levels, the character improves scores according to point buy rules. So at 20th level you end up with 39 point buy if you started at 20. Of course, this makes increasing your primary stat much harder than the regular rules.
I want to try giving normal point buy, then giving an extra point at each level up. Rather than increasing one score every four levels, the character improves scores according to point buy rules. So at 20th level you end up with 39 point buy if you started at 20. Of course, this makes increasing your primary stat much harder than the regular rules.
i have considered something similar at first, though i worried that it take the mad classes too long to catch up.
I want to try giving normal point buy, then giving an extra point at each level up. Rather than increasing one score every four levels, the character improves scores according to point buy rules. So at 20th level you end up with 39 point buy if you started at 20. Of course, this makes increasing your primary stat much harder than the regular rules.
What points costs do you use for stats that go above 18 from the level up points?
And do you treat their scores as "before racial adjustments" when figuring the costs to advance?
I want to try giving normal point buy, then giving an extra point at each level up. Rather than increasing one score every four levels, the character improves scores according to point buy rules. So at 20th level you end up with 39 point buy if you started at 20. Of course, this makes increasing your primary stat much harder than the regular rules.i have considered something similar at first, though i worried that it take the mad classes too long to catch up.
Give the MAD classes extra point buy points in addition to the one a level. You'd just need to figure out how much.
Maybe Monks and Ninjas/Rogues get two full points a level instead of one, Fighters (and Cavs) get 1.75 point a level. Other full BAB classes get an 1.5 point a level, and half casters get 1.25, while full casters get just 1.
You'd have to tweak to how much extra you want to give them, but this would let the MAD classes build up multiple ability scores pretty fast.
Well the reason i looked at adjusting point buy costs was to make MAD classes function straight off the bat at level one.
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I want to try giving normal point buy, then giving an extra point at each level up. Rather than increasing one score every four levels, the character improves scores according to point buy rules. So at 20th level you end up with 39 point buy if you started at 20. Of course, this makes increasing your primary stat much harder than the regular rules.What points costs do you use for stats that go above 18 from the level up points?
And do you treat their scores as "before racial adjustments" when figuring the costs to advance?
I did this for my last campaign. We had a hard cap of 18 before racial and enhancement bonuses.
Well the reason i looked at adjusting point buy costs was to make MAD classes function straight off the bat at level one.
If the most MAD classes get 2 point buy points a level, that's two points that they can use right away to, say, take a 13 CON up to a 14.