Toaster- Use Magic Device + Wand. Problem. Solved. :P Some Magic Fang, some Evolution Surge, etc- the Eidolon'll make one hit/round.
And if con focused, that DC can get rather high- let's just step back and look at the possible top out.
1-16 con damage if that poison strikes; that can mean between 0 and 160 HP, or just death, on a level 20 character.
Of course, we also have to remember that this is not sure-fire and an immunity exists, but hey, any Eidolon can do it.
The sum-up of what I'm trying to point out here is, if they WANT their Eidolon to be a power player (pun!), they WILL, half-BAB and limitations or not. This is true of anything, but Eidolons especially because they're so dang versatile.
And if a vanilla sorcerer made the level of investment that the eidolon plus sorcerer did there, I have no doubt they could just as deadly. What if this went the opposite way, what if the vanilla summoner exchanged their Eidolon, lost base attack, armor casting and summon monster sla's but got 1 spell per day each of 7th and higher at the appropriate sorcerer level, chose from the sorcerer spell list instead of their own AND a Sorcerer bloodline with full benefits. Nearly identical to my suggestion but it nearly looks overpowered compared to what's lost, that's with losing a full powered eidolon. In this game the one trick ponies are the easiest to suppress, it's the versatile casters with more higher level spells that are difficult to stop. I mean heck versatility is why wizards are considered more powerful than Sorcerers in the first place. Yes you can invest the resources of both the eidolon and sorcerer to make the eidolon a power player. You can make same claim of a vanilla sorcerer.
If it is so scary, simply limit the ability score increase to one per ability score, No more insano DCs and it encourages utility Eidolons.
I mention this particular combo only because it happens to be an area where this combination stands out... Normally a summoner doesnt get transformation as a spell at all, and a wizard or sorcerer casting transformation is casting it on himself, a character that is normally not so hot at combat, and doing so removes his abilities to cast spells until the transformation is up. By casting it on an eidolon that is arguably already more potent in combat than a wizard, it brings her for a very short time into a pretty significant combat powerhouse,sadly even tossing haste and the enlarge evolution just barely brings her on par with fighters, though as you can see it wipes out over 30 percent of his spells per day to make it happen...
I don't want to shut the build down for things that any other character could do, but if there are things like this that are uniquely possible with the combination that would make it more dangerous or game breaking than a regular run of the mill fighter or wizard... Thats the stuff I need to find a way to stop ahead of time. I appreciate help ^_^
isn't your player doing a Gestalt Build?
Its true that the half 3/4 bab sounds pretty brutal. It is offset somewhat by the impressive strength bonuses an eidolon gets from leveling... 27 strength by level 20 so that BAB of 7 turns into a 14 with strength... If we get that belt we're looking at Strength of 33, Bab 17 at 20th level before spell buffs. Not sure how we feel about that...
I know how I feel about it, for what it's worth:
+17 will never hit anything at 20th level.
Raider of course has a point about UMD and non-combat uses for eidolons, but yeah, +17 to hit including bab, strength, and enhancement at 20th level? Pointless in combat.
isn't your player doing a Gestalt Build?
Nope. It was originally set up as a gestalt 9 levels ago.. We've slowly been refining the idea over the course of play to see hw it actually runs... I just dont tend to actively try to break the game so I dont have much experience with that sort of thing. There are fun things I want to try, but every once in a while we run into something that's just 'a little too much'... What you see before you is the culmination of that effort up to this point.
Its true that the half 3/4 bab sounds pretty brutal. It is offset somewhat by the impressive strength bonuses an eidolon gets from leveling... 27 strength by level 20 so that BAB of 7 turns into a 14 with strength... If we get that belt we're looking at Strength of 33, Bab 17 at 20th level before spell buffs. Not sure how we feel about that...I know how I feel about it, for what it's worth:
+17 will never hit anything at 20th level.
Raider of course has a point about UMD and non-combat uses for eidolons, but yeah, +17 to hit including bab, strength, and enhancement at 20th level? Pointless in combat.
Good stuff. So without buffs she's a joke in combat at 20th level and thats good because it keeps the actual character buffing her as relevant and necessary... With a single tensers transformation that would go up to a BAB 29 for a brief time... 6 better armor class and 40 extra hit points until the spell ends... Which is nice... Is it too nice? By 20th level and focusing on con like I have she'll end up with 24 strength, 20 dex, 22 con and an armor class of 31 before buffs and gear... Tensers brings her up to 28 strong, 24 dex, 26 con. bab 29, ac 37 before gear... enlarge evolution brings that to 36 strong, 30 con... claw strike of d6+13, rend is 2d6+19... add on an element damage and strongjaw and we might be looking at a three claws of 3d6+13s and a 4d6+19 rend... 103dps average, and an armor class of 37 before gear, and around hmmm. 252 hit points until all the spells wear off... And its a lot of spells. Thats about as strong as i've thought about this being able to get up to this point... Improved and greater rending furies could add to that a bit. BAB of somewhere around 33 I think... For a brief and shining moment... 50 seconds of prep time to get her there. By then the fight is usually over. Interesting thought experiment but hardly ever practical in game...
Its true that the half 3/4 bab sounds pretty brutal. It is offset somewhat by the impressive strength bonuses an eidolon gets from leveling... 27 strength by level 20 so that BAB of 7 turns into a 14 with strength... If we get that belt we're looking at Strength of 33, Bab 17 at 20th level before spell buffs. Not sure how we feel about that...I know how I feel about it, for what it's worth:
+17 will never hit anything at 20th level.
Raider of course has a point about UMD and non-combat uses for eidolons, but yeah, +17 to hit including bab, strength, and enhancement at 20th level? Pointless in combat.
Bestiary lists Average level 20 AC as 36, and an average good fortitude save at 22. This eidolon is going to be hitting at less half if the creature isn't immune, and that's considerable investment on their part to accomplish this, and the DC, while good, is hardly a showstopper.
Good stuff. So without buffs she's a joke in combat at 20th level and thats good because it keeps the actual character buffing her as relevant and necessary... With a single tensers transformation that would go up to a BAB 29 for a brief time... 6 better armor class and 40 extra hit points until the spell ends... Which is nice... Is it too nice?Its true that the half 3/4 bab sounds pretty brutal. It is offset somewhat by the impressive strength bonuses an eidolon gets from leveling... 27 strength by level 20 so that BAB of 7 turns into a 14 with strength... If we get that belt we're looking at Strength of 33, Bab 17 at 20th level before spell buffs. Not sure how we feel about that...I know how I feel about it, for what it's worth:
+17 will never hit anything at 20th level.
Raider of course has a point about UMD and non-combat uses for eidolons, but yeah, +17 to hit including bab, strength, and enhancement at 20th level? Pointless in combat.
isn't Tensers Transformation a 3.5 spell?
They just call it transformation here in pathfinder for licensing issues.
They just call it transformation here in pathfinder for licensing issues.
transformation has a range of personal, you didn't grant the share spells ability in your MCA.
Share spells comes from the eidolon progression table, it doesn't need to be listed in the class table.They just call it transformation here in pathfinder for licensing issues.transformation has a range of personal, you didn't grant the share spells ability in your MCA.
then wouldn't a great deal of cheese be prevented if you simply say it doesn't get share spells?
I'm not too worried about transformation. Honestly if you spend all your actions buffing the eidolon, the GM should WANT you to get a hit or two in, otherwise you're useless to your party and that's no fun. Besides, you have limited spell slots to cast transformation AND it's pretty easy to punish someone for carrying around a bag full of bull's strength potions...
Toaster- it also prevents quite a few neat things.
I say keep Share Spells and find a different way- like lowering that casting.
Yes, I'm going to keep saying that. :P
Toaster- it also prevents quite a few neat things.
I say keep Share Spells and find a different way- like lowering that casting.
Yes, I'm going to keep saying that. :P
if you take away 9th level casting and bloodlines, you have a summoner archetype not a MCA. You're leaving nothing but the spell list, which does nothing to preserve the sorcerer. Better to nerf the eidolon than the caster.
We can do this.
We can do this.
I believe in all of us.
Is there anything left to be done on Runeforged Warrior?
Primary Class: Fighter.
Secondary Class: Magus.
Alignment: Any.
Hit Dice: d10.
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The runeforged warrior may select three magus skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal fighter class skills. The runeforged warrior gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 2 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Runeforged warriors are proficient with simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, but not with shields. He can cast runeforged warrior spells while wearing light and medium armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.
Like any other arcane spellcaster, a runeforged warrior wearing heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass runeforged warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Bonded Weapon (Sp): At 1st level, the runeforged warrior begins play with one bonded weapon at no cost. The bonded weapon must be a melee weapon the runeforged warrior is proficient with. This weapon is of masterwork quality, and is not made of any special materials. A runeforged warrior cannot cast spells without his bonded weapon in hand.
Starting at 5th level, a bonded weapon can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the runeforged warrior has scribed onto his bonded weapon (see Rune Scribing below) and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the runeforged warrior, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the runeforged warrior's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities.
A runeforged warrior can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat. For example, a runeforged warrior with a bonded dagger must be at least 5th level to add magic abilities to the dagger (see Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat). The magic properties of a bonded weapon, including any magic abilities added to the object, only function for the runeforged warrior who owns it. If a bonded weapon's owner dies, or the item is replaced, the weapon reverts to being an ordinary masterwork weapon of the appropriate type.
If a bonded weapon is damaged, it is restored to full hit points the next time the runeforged warrior prepares his spells. If the weapon is lost or destroyed, it can be replaced after 1 week in a special ritual that costs 200 gp per runeforged warrior level plus the cost of the masterwork item. This ritual takes 8 hours to complete. Items replaced in this way do not possess any of the additional enchantments of the previous bonded weapon. A runeforged warrior can designate an existing magic item as his bonded item. This functions in the same way as replacing a lost or destroyed item except that the new magic item retains its abilities while gaining the benefits and drawbacks of becoming a bonded weapon.
Arcane Pool (Su): At 1st level, the runeforged warrior gains a reservoir of mystical arcane energy that he can draw upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. This arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his runeforged warrior level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modifier. The pool refreshes once per day after the runeforged warrior sleeps and meditates for 1 hour. When he later gains spellcasting, the pool refreshes when he prepares his spells for the day.
At 1st level, a runeforged warrior can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant his bonded weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. At 5th level and every five levels thereafter, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level. These bonuses can be added to the weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement to a maximum of +5. Multiple uses of this ability on the same weapon do not stack with themselves. It costs 2 points to grant these bonuses to weapons other than his bonded weapon.
At 5th level, these bonuses can be used to add any of the following weapon properties: dancing, flaming, flaming burst, frost, icy burst, keen, shock, shocking burst, speed, or vorpal.
Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s base price modifier. These properties are added to any the weapon already has, but duplicates do not stack. If the weapon is not magical, at least a +1 enhancement bonus must be added before any other properties can be added. These bonuses and properties are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and cannot be changed until the next time the runeforged warrior uses this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon is wielded by anyone other than the runeforged warrior.
Unlike a magus, a runeforged warrior can enhance up to two weapons in this way at one time, one of which must be his bonded weapon. If he uses this ability again, one of the two uses immediately ends. This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 1st level.
Bonus Feats: this is exactly like the fighter ability of the same name, except that the runeforged warrior gains a bonus feat at 2nd level and at every four level thereafter. At 6th level, he may select item creation feats in addition to the normal combat feats.
Master Smith (Ex): At 3rd level, when using Craft (armor) or Craft (weapons) to create mundane armor, shields, and weapons, a runeforged warrior gains a competence bonus equal to his runeforged warrior level on the Craft (armor) or Craft (weapons) check. A runeforged warrior can use Craft (armor) or Craft (weapons) to identify magical armor or weapon properties as if using detect magic. He must hold the armor or weapon for 1 round to make such a check. In addition, a runeforged warrior gains the Master Craftsman feat even if he does not meet the requirements.
At 9th level, a uneforged warrior uses the 1/10 gp value of armor, shields, and weapons to determine how much time it takes to craft mundane items, and he requires only half the normal amount of time to enchant magical arms and armor. This ability replaces armor training 1 and weapon training 2.
Magus Arcana: At 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, and so on), a runeforged warrior can choose to learn a magus arcana, using his runeforged warrior as his magus level. This ability replaces the bonus feats gained at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.
Rune Scribing: Starting at 5th level, a runeforged warrior gains the ability to scribe runes of power onto his bonded weapon, allowing him to cast a limited number of spells per day drawn from the magus spell list. The runeforged warrior's bonded weapon acts as his spellbook, but he does not learn spells in the normal manner. Instead of learning spells like a magus, the runeforged warrior creates magical etching acids from the ashes of the scrolls of spells he wishes to learn. The process creating a magical acid and scribing the appropriate rune onto his bonded weapon requires 1 hour per level of the spell. Only magus spells with a range of “personal” or “touch” can be learned in this way.
At 5th level, a runeforged warrior gains one 1st-level spell slot in which to cast his 1st-level spells, in addition the bonus spell provided by his bonded weapon. At 9th level and every four levels thereafter, he gains one spell slot of each subsequent level up to 4th-level spells at 17th level. A runeforged warrior also gains additional spells per day for a high Intelligence score. A runeforged warrior can scribe detect magic and read magic onto his bonded weapon as 1st-level spells.
While a runforged warrior must always use the method described above to scribe spells onto his bonded weapon, he can use the pages from a magus’s or wizard’s spellbook with the desired spell written upon them in place of a scroll. The pages are consumed in the acid creation process just as if the spell were cast directly from the spellbook. A runeforged warrior cannot scribe spells from an alchemist’s formulae book. However, a magus, wizard, or alchemist can learn any spell scribed onto a runeforged warrior’s bonded weapon into their spellbook or formulae book as long as the spell is on their class spell list or formulae list. Learning these runes is more difficult than learning spells from typical sources. The DC for a magus, wizard, or alchemist to copy spells from a bonded weapon into a spellbook or formulae book increases by 5.
Since the space on a bonded weapon is limited, a runeforged warrior can only have a certain number of spells scribed onto his weapon at any one time. A runeforged warrior can scribe any spell he desires onto his bonded weapon, but cannot exceed a the maximum of six 1st-level spells, four 2nd-level spells, three 3rd-level spells, and two 4th-level spells. A runeforged warrior otherwise prepares and casts spells as a magus equal to his runeforged warrior level -4?. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
Spellstrike (Su): At 5th level, a runeforged warrior gains the magus’s spellstrike ability. This ability replaces bravery.
Armor Training: Starting at 7th level, a runeforged warrior learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. At level 11 and 15, these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –3 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +3 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a runeforged warrior can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor.
Reforge (Su): At 13th level, as a standard action, a runeforged warrior can restore a number of hit points equal to his runeforged warrior level to a damaged object by touching it and spending 1 point from his arcane pool. Repairing a destroyed object takes 1 minute and materials equal to 1/4 the item’s sale value, and restores the object to 1 hit point.
Restoring the enchantments of a destroyed magical item requires additional points from the runeforged warrior’s arcane pool equal to the item’s caster level. The runeforged warrior gains one temporary negative level if the item’s caster level is lower than his own, two negative levels if equal or greater (or none if the item is his bonded weapon); the save DC to remove these negative levels is equal to 10 + the item’s caster level. This ability replaces weapon training 3.
Destructive Counterstrike (Su): At 17th level, if an opponent activates a magical item while threatened by a runeforged warrior, the opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from the runeforged warrior, even if activating it would not normally provoke an attack of opportunity.
Alternatively, the runeforged warrior can choose to make a sunder attempt against the item instead of making the attack of opportunity against the opponent. If the item is destroyed, its effects are negated. This ability replaces weapon training 4.
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a runeforged warrior gains Damage Reduction 5/— whenever he is wearing armor.
Bonded Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a runeforged warrior automatically confirms all critical threats and has their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example) when using his bonded weapon. In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding his bonded weapon.
Table: Runeforged Warrior
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Arcane pool, bonded weapon
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Bonus feat
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Master smith
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Magus arcana
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Rune scribing, spellstrike
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Bonus feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Armor training 1
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Magus arcana
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Armor training 2
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Magus arcana
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Reforge
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Bonus feat
15th +15/+10/+15 +9 +5 +9 Armor training 3
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +10 Magus arcana
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Destructive counterstrike
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Armor mastery
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Bonded weapon mastery, magus arcana
NEW MAGUS ARCANA
The following new magus arcana is restricted to the Runeforged Warrior multiclass archetype.
Fortify Bond
A runeforged warrior can make his bonded weapon more durable and resilient to damage.
Prerequisites: Runeforged Warrior 3, Bonded Weapon weapon class feature.
Benefits: A runeforged warrior may spend 1 point from his arcane pool to increase the hardness and hit points of his bonded weapon by an amount equal to his runeforged warrior level. These hit points last until expended or until the runeforged warrior next refreshes his arcane pool. Multiple uses of this ability overlap and do not stack.
If that's all cleaned up and ready to go, here's the updated Essentia Shaman to be lookered at again.
Essentia Shaman
A child of nature and a natural scholar, the Essentia Shaman lives and breathes the foundation of all existence. These versatile and powerful spellcasters rain down elemental fury from both studies practice and ritual, as well as from a deeply felt connection to the natural world.
Primary Class: Druid
Secondary Class: Wizard
Alignment: Any Neutral
Hit Dice: d8
Poor BAB, Good saves Fort and Will
Bonus Skills and Ranks: The Essentia Shaman may select three wizard skills to add to his class skills in addition to the normal druid class skills. The Essentia Shaman gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Essentia Shamans are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below).
Essentia Shamans are proficient with light armor but are prohibited from wearing metal armor; thus, they may wear only padded, leather, or hide armor. An essentia shaman may also wear wooden armor that has been altered by the ironwood spell so that it functions as though it were steel. essentia shamans are not proficient with shields. She ignores arcane spell failure chance when casting arcane essentia shaman spells while wearing light armor.
An essentia shaman who wears prohibited armor is unable to cast divine essentia shaman spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like class abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter.
Spells: An essentia shaman casts spells as both a druid and a wizard, preparing spells from 2 separate spell lists and having 2 separate allotments of spells per day. She casts arcane Wizard spells using intelligence, carries a spellbook for Wizard spells, and spends an hour preparing spells once per day. She also casts divine Druid spells using wisdom, and spends a separate hour preparing spells once per day, requiring 2 hours to prepare both her spell lists. She has diminished spellcasting for both arcane and divine spells, losing 2 spell slots per spell level she can cast. She gains bonus spells per day if she has a high intelligence or wisdom, however if she does not have 2 slots of a given spell level, she loses 1 bonus spell slot granted by a high casting stat. For example, a 1st level essentia shaman does not gain normal spell slots, and loses a bonus spell slot from both intelligence and wisdom. Her diminished spellcasting does not detract from her bonus spells granted from her elemental school or elemental domain.
Spontaneous Casting: An essentia shaman can channel stored spell energy into summoning spells that she hasn't prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared arcane spell in order to cast her domain spell of the same level or lower. She can also “lose” a prepared divine spell in order to cast a spell with an elemental descriptor matching her elemental school of the same level or lower.
Orisons and Cantrips: An essentia shaman knows and prepares orisons and cantrips in the same way that a druid and a wizard does, although she prepares 2 less than normal of each per day.
Elemental School: At 1st level the essentia shaman gains an Elemental School. This functions as the wizard's elemental school class feature, but is not optional and must be selected from Air, Earth, Fire, or Water.
Elemental Domain: At 1st level the essentia shaman gains an Elemental Domain. This functions as the druid's nature bond, but she must select Nature Domain, and it must be from the domains of Air, Earth, Fire, or Water. It does not need to be the same element selected for her Elemental School.
Planar Sense (Ex): At level 2, an essentia shaman gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (planes) and Survival checks.
Elemental Empathy (Ex): An essentia shaman can improve the attitude of an elemental. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of an elemental. The essentia shaman rolls 1d20 and adds her essentia shaman level and her Charisma modifier to determine the elemental empathy check result.
To use elemental empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an elemental in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
An essentia shaman can use this ability to influence an elemental with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 at no penalty, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check if she is trying to influence an elemental with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher.
Environmental Stride (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, an essentia shaman may move through an environmental hazard that hampers movement at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment, related to her elemental school and elemental domain.
Fire: Traveling through non-magical fires that do no more than 1d6 damage. This damage is only ignored as long as the essentia shaman starts and ends her movement outside of the fire. She may also travel through lava in this way, with the same limitation of starting and stopping outside of the lava, but only while walking. Full submersion in lava still does normal lava damage.
Earth: The essentia shaman travels through earthy and stony debris that counts as rough terrain without penalty, and ignores damage from effects such as Stone Spikes.
Air: The essentia shaman is considered to be 1 size larger for the purposes of wind effects, and ignores the first 20 feet of falling damage.
Water: The essentia shaman ignores rough terrain effects presented by shallow water, and her movement is not affected while standing and moving on icy surfaces.
Elemental Resistance (Sp): At 4th level the essentia shaman gains Energy Resistance to the selected elements of her elemental school and elemental domain equal to 1½ times her essentia shaman level, or two times her essentia shaman level if both her elemental school and elemental domain are the same element. In addition, at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, she gains a +1 bonus on her saves against spells and spell-like abilities with an elemental descriptor matching her elemental school and elemental domain (to a maximum of +5 at level 20) , if her school and domain element is the same, she instead gains +1 at 4th and level 3 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +6 at level 19).
Elemental Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, an essentia shaman gains the ability to turn herself into a small elemental and back again once per day. This ability functions like the elemental body I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per essentia shaman level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to elemental or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an elemental related to the essentia shaman's elemental school or elemental domain.
An essentia shaman loses her ability to speak any language besides the primary elemental language of her elemental body. Ignan for fire, Auran for air, Aquan for water, and Terran for earth.
An essentia shaman can use this ability an additional time per day at 8th level and every three levels thereafter, for a total of five times at 17th level. At 20th level, an essentia shaman can use wild shape at will. As an essentia shaman gains in levels, this ability allows the essentia shaman to take on the form of larger and smaller elementals. Each form expends one daily usage of this ability, regardless of the form taken.
At 8th level, an essentia shaman can use elemental wild shape to change into a Medium elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body II.
At 11th level, an essentia shaman can use elemental wild shape to change into a Large elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body III.
At 14th level, an essentia shaman can use elemental wild shape to change into a Huge elemental. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid's wild shape now functions as elemental body IV.
Foundation Speech: At 10th level the essentia shaman learns Ignan Auran Aquan and Terran if she does not already know them.
Timeless Body (Ex): After attaining 15th level, an essentia shaman no longer takes ability score penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any penalties she may have already incurred, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the essentia shaman still dies of old age when her time is up.
Lvl BAB For Ref Wil Special 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
1 +0 +2 +0 +2 Elemental School, Elemental Domain (1/1) (-1/-1) - - - - - - - -
2 +1 +3 +0 +3 Planar Sense, Elemental Empathy (2/2) (0/0) - - - - - - - -
3 +1 +3 +1 +3 Environmental Stride (2/2) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - - - - -
4 +2 +4 +1 +4 Elemental Resistance (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) - - - - - - -
5 +2 +4 +1 +4 Elemental Wild Shape (1/day) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - - - -
6 +3 +5 +2 +5 - (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - - - - -
7 +3 +5 +2 +5 - (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - - -
8 +4 +6 +2 +6 Elemental Wild Shape (2/day) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - - - -
9 +4 +6 +3 +6 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - - -
10 +5 +7 +3 +7 Foundation Speech (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - - -
11 +5 +7 +3 +7 Elemental Wild Shape (3/day) (2/2) (2/2) (2/+2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - - -
12 +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - - -
13 +6/+1 +8 +4 +8 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) - -
14 +7/+2 +9 +4 +9 Elemental Wild Shape (4/day) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) - -
15 +7/+2 +9 +5 +9 Timeless Body (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1) -
16 +8/+3 +10 +5 +10 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1) (0/0) -
17 +8/+2 +10 +5 +10 Elemental Wild Shape (5/day) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0) (-1/-1)
18 +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (0/0)
19 +9/+4 +11 +6 +11 - (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (1/1) (1/1)
20 +10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Elemental Wild Shape (At Will) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2) (2/2)
Also on the note of the eidosorc.
Reduced spellcasting, eidolon at -4 or so, or half progression.He's practically building an arcane druid with this concept, considering that thing has a pet, transforms when they feel like it, has 9th level casting, and can wear armor and uses 3/4 bab.
I feel like throwing a reduced level eidolon into the mix to replace schools or bloodlines is fair, especially with the casting reduction.
You could even go a step further and say that the dude can't cast spells of a certain school while the pet is out and about, or that they have a reduced caster level when the pet's out.
take away evolutions above an EP cost of 3
make the eidolon confused for a round whenever the sorc casts a spell
There's tons of limiting factors you could put on this that will make it a non-broken thing.
Or, you could alternatively give the class an enhanced version of taking Evolved Familiar a ton of times. Reduced spellcasting would balance out getting upgrades for the familiar to make it like an eidolon.
But yes, I would really like to get a finality on Runeforged Warrior and get some chopping block on Essentia Shaman.
And sleep. That would also be nice. =.=
And you're right. Share spells should be on that list. I'm not sure how it got missed. I'll laugh my butt off if the notion is that we bring the spells per day down to 1s instead of 2s on that wizards table.
Hokay.
Now, we can't just toss him access to sorc/wizard spells and ninth level casting without losin' or nerfing the eidolon in every way possible.
On the other hand, we can't toss the eidolon or bai-bai to everything summoner.
Option 1-
I'm going to suggest this one last time- Summoner Spell List. Allow him to pick two sorcerer spells of a level he can cast every three levels. Allow him to pick a few (4?) sorc 7-8 spells to learn as sixth level spells.
No diminished casting needed then, if we toss out the summon monster SLA's.
From there, we can set up a suitable eidolon that won't need any extreme nerfs.
Option 2-
Eidolon at level -3, like the ranger's animal companion. We'll work on what other limitations are needed afterwards.
Spells up to ninth level, Diminish Spells Known.
He'll get eschew materials and the most iconic/needed of the Summoner abilities, but not the Summon Monster SLA's. No Shield Ally, Aspect, Merged Forms- just Life Link, Bond Senses, Maker's Call, and Transposition.
With this, we can work down the eidolon and nudge it into the right place. We'll need something for that first couple levels to avoid making him suck compared to anything else, but at and after third...
I'm wary of this method, of course. Eidolon and Ninth level spells is not an easy thing to balance- but if we're going to do it, this might have to be the angle.
Hmmm... Is there a particular spell or spells in the 9th level list for this class that you'd prefer to avoid? Or just the fact that 9th level spells are even an option that strikes you...
Actually, I just thought of a good question- Vincent, why ARE you so focused on having the ninth-level spells? Is it the term? A particular setup?
I mean, it's not really needed here. I don't see why it's such a sticking point- we've done workarounds for hybrid lists like this, and even made new ones (see the Majutsu Samurai) for Non-Caster/Caster MCA's.
It's not hard to just scoop up a few high level spells known and put them in the sixth or even fifth spells known areas. Summoner and Bard get away with it all the time!
Rather curious.
Eh.
Simple steps here.
Start sorcerer.
Keep eschew materials.
Keep spells, but have Diminished casting.
Replace bloodline with eidolon -3.
Add a couple summoner spells to spell list as you level (rejuvenate eidolon, etc.).
Don't add any other summoner abilities.
Limit available evolutions with extreme prejudice.
What else does the build need? Sorry I haven't read every wall of text in the current discussion :)
Eh.
Simple steps here.
Start sorcerer.
Keep eschew materials.
Keep spells, but have Diminished casting.
Replace bloodline with eidolon -3.
Add a couple summoner spells to spell list as you level (rejuvenate eidolon, etc.).
Don't add any other summoner abilities.
Limit available evolutions with extreme prejudice.What else does the build need? Sorry I haven't read every wall of text in the current discussion :)
seriously, banning the ability score increase evolution solves sooooooooo many issues with the fey eidolon.
It'd need something at low levels (1-3, before it gets Eidolon) to avoid being worse than sorc, flak.
I think something just-slightly-better than a first level bloodline ability.
No no, you get L1 eidolon @ L1, then it doesn't level until L4, like the sylvan bloodline animal companion.
I think I'd prefer going with option 1 as long as it included 4 9th level spells as well... Starts to feel like stacking on the top end, but its true the summoner spell list does hit 6th level even earlier than the wizard gets 9th... So its a mechanic the summoner already uses , just to a lesser degree.. Not opposed to toaster's suggestion of removing accesss to ability score evolutions as well... Without ability score evolutions she tops out at 16 con... so at 20th level we're talking about 97 hit points before possible con gear... It sounds low until you consider she's also life linking...
Yeah, I noticed that taking away huge size and some of the ability score stacking helps balance out eidolons a lot.
But then I remember how many things are massive at higher levels.
So if I wipe out the druid spells I tacked in there to hit an even cozy 80 spells, moved 4 spells per level down from levels 7-9 and made them 6th level spells on his list... that would get total spells known down to 69.... Then use the summoners spells per day changing all the 5s and 4s to 3s for a limit of 18 spells per day again before attribute bonuses? How does that feel? Put attribute evolution on the chopping block as well? Technically for me that would mean dropping demiplane greater right on top of demiplane, so total spells known would be down to 68... Wish would stomp out limited wish, so thats 67... Frightful aspect MIGHT stomp transformation.. Have to reread that one...... Vision MIGHT stomp legend lore... Have to check on that one too... Could be down to 65 spells known that way
Yep. Checked em both. Dropping them both to 6th level spells renders their lower versions moot. so 65 spells known if we did it that way, and it would compress the 2 spells per level per day (meaning originally written as 8 spells from levels 6-9 each day) all into level 6, which would only be 3 spells per day from both 6th level spells and whatever spells i keep from levels 7-9. Thats pretty significant.
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Spells per day table:
-----1---2---3---4---5---6
1---1
2---2
3---3
4---3---1
5---3---2
6---3---3
7---3---3---1
8---3---3---2
9---3---3---3
10-3---3---3---1
11-3---3---3---2
12-3---3---3---3
13-3---3---3---3---1
14-3---3---3---3---2
15-3---3---3---3---3
16-3---3---3---3---3---1
17-3---3---3---3---3---2
18-3---3---3---3---3---3
Chooses 4 spells at each new level from the appropriate levels in the following list:
0 Dancing lights, Detect magic, Detect poison, Mage hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation
1 Enlarge person, Crafters fortune, Vanish, Rejuvenate Eidolon Lesser, Unfetter, Liberating command
2 Haste, Locate object, Create treasure map, Summon Eidolon, Evolution surge lesser, Spontaneous immolation, Restore eidolon lesser, Enlarge person mass, Fly
3 Invisibility greater, lightning bolt, Tongues, Wall of fire, Evolution surge, Restore eidolon
4 Remove curse, Secure shelter, Sending, Evolution surge greater, Purified calling, Transmogrify, Greater animal aspect
5 Break enchantment, Dispel magic greater, Ethereal Jaunt, Fabricate, Invisibility Mass, Permanency, Plane shift, Repulsion, Simulacrum, Teleport greater, Life bubble, Rejuvenate Eidolon greater
6 Beast shape IV, Discern location, Vision, Monstrous physique iv, Permanent image, Stone to flesh, Frightful aspect, Battlemind link, Create demiplane greater, Control weather, Prismatic spray, Vision, Joyful rapture, Form of the Dragon III, Giant form II, Polar ray, Telekinetic sphere, Stormbolts, Frightful aspect, Freedom, Prismatic sphere, Shapechange, Wish, Create demiplane greater.
So by level 17 instead of being able to cast 2 spells from 6, 2 spells from 7, and 2 spells from 8 , and 1 spell from 9 per day, he can now only cast 2 spells per day from what would be ALL the spells left over from levels 6-9 period. Its kind of a neat way to do that... And it still totally fits my 'less per day, more variety style...'
In effect its giving him access to the 7-9th level spells, but instead of giving him 8 spells per day:2 of each spells per level per day from levels 6 to 9..., In effect he's only getting 3 spells per day from ALL the spells he has to choose from from levels 6-9...
ok, but whats left of the Sorcerer? It's supposed to be the primary class after all, that looks more like the summoner is primary. course all you need to do is switch the two around in you're class description and you're good to go.
I agree. Switch the class to summoner primary sorcerer secondary and I think that would cover it.
since you're nerfing the eidolon and reducing spellcasting for higher spells, how about trading away the Sla's for the fey bloodline sans bonus spells and feats. To be clear, you would get the arcana and powers, but nothing else.
I dont know. I guess the bloodline stuff just doesnt seem like its worth trading really. Mechanically I'm not really interested in them and thematically I'm not sure I want this guy to actually have fey blood... He isn't... part fey... and he'll never turn into a fey... He's just a hacker in the system, but he's not 'part of the system'. I really like that TRON analogy now that I see it clearly.
I dont know. I guess the bloodline stuff just doesnt seem like its worth trading really. Mechanically I'm not really interested in them and thematically I'm not sure I want this guy to actually have fey blood... He isn't... part fey... and he'll never turn into a fey... He's just a hacker in the system, but he's not 'part of the system'. I really like that TRON analogy now that I see it clearly.
A fey Sorcerer can come to be from an ancestor high fiving a satyr during a kegger. Bloodline is incredibly misleading because being an actual descendant isn't required. If this guy hacked the "fey" system, why wouldn't he walk away with fey abilities? On a mechanical note, it better ties in the sorcerer by having it commit an actual class ability.
Hello, I am having a bit of trouble finding a balance for my Samurai/ Ninja. The sword saint archetype sets a precedent by exchanging the mount for a full SA progression, but it's limited by having to start the attack with no weapon in hand. I was wondering if a slower SA progression would be called for to be able to use it like a regular SA and be able to pick up the poison use feature.
Also, is ki pool a balanced swap for resolve?
Thanks in advance.
On a mechanical note, it better ties in the sorcerer by having it commit an actual class ability.
This is probably why it make more sense to identify it as summoner primary and sorcerer secondary, because he's commiting a significant amount of summoner class abilities... Sort of messes with the theme though to say 'I love nature and fey so much I think i'll put it on the chopping block to get a few sorcerer spells...'
On a mechanical note, it better ties in the sorcerer by having it commit an actual class ability.This is probably why it make more sense to identify it as summoner primary and sorcerer secondary, because he's commiting a significant amount of summoner class abilities... Sort of messes with the theme though to say 'I love nature and fey so much I think i'll put it on the chopping block to get a few sorcerer spells...'
yup the swap was a good choice.
Hello, I am having a bit of trouble finding a balance for my Samurai/ Ninja. The sword saint archetype sets a precedent by exchanging the mount for a full SA progression, but it's limited by having to start the attack with no weapon in hand. I was wondering if a slower SA progression would be called for to be able to use it like a regular SA and be able to pick up the poison use feature.
Also, is ki pool a balanced swap for resolve?
Thanks in advance.
lesser SA seems ok, not sure about the ki pool resolve swap though, that takes consideration.
Is it just me or do Multi-class Archetypes almost require their own subsection of suggestions/house rules/homebrew to make dealing with each class easier?
Is it just me or do Multi-class Archetypes almost require their own subsection of suggestions/house rules/homebrew to make dealing with each class easier?
I think we deserve at least a sticky tag.
I mean at least summoner primary makes more sense if Raider thinks the LF20 rewrite is enough of a nerf... More comfortable calling it sorcerer primary for thematic reasons and feel like thematic trumps mechanic for the most part... But if we've found that elusive 'point of not overpowered' then I'm feelin pretty good either way. Feels so much more right that it would be a sorcerer who was originally planning on going full tilt 24 6th to 9th level spells per day and then got distracted by the poetry of the raw primal natural beauty that he discovered. The fact that it doesnt distract him enough from losing out on 9th level spells completely says that he still prefers to keep his foot firmly in the sorcerer door and not so enchanted with nature as to go summoner enough to develop his 'horde of crocodiles' skills... I guess when I'm picking primary I prefer thematic nuance to mechanical nuance, so I still see him as a sorcerer primary despite the mechanics of it, even if Raider likes the new nerf.
Well the primary class is supposed to provide a general framework for the MCA, if you remove everything it is it stops being the primary. That is the role of the primary class after all, that's why I think the Summoner Class fits as a better primary. You are already using the Summoner progression and Eidolon, You're just borrowing a few mechanics from the Sorcerer.
I did find a place where the new nerf creates a problem, and thats at level 10.. I should have 40 spells known at level 10 but only 35 spells in that level range available to him... If I dont yet have access to 5th level spells at level 10 then I'm spending the levels 10-13 not having any new spells because I'm gaining 4 spells per level and dont have access to that spell level for 4 whole levels... Not a bad price to pay for potentially getting 9th level spells at level 16... but I also think Raider would really hate the notion of the class getting 9th level spells earlier than even a wizard.... Looks like keeping 9th level spells and using the summoner table for spells per day isnt going to be viable. Might be going back to sorcerer primary anyway based on that... Find a different angle...
Then again...
It's not hard to just scoop up a few high level spells known and put them in the sixth or even fifth spells known areas. Summoner and Bard get away with it all the time!
Rather curious.
Still doesnt solve the problem at level 10 though...
To answer the question of why its so important to me basically ive played wizards for nearly 30 years... Spells in the 7-9 range like greater demiplane and wish and shapechange are like crack to me... so hard to put down that I rarely ever play a non wizard, and summoner is the first class to even make me even consider it... If a fighter could rip the earth in half and pour beer out of a rift into the real world it still wouldn't want me to not play a wizard... If our campaign werent set up for gestalting I still wouldnt have considered a summoner at all if it meant giving up even something as simple as 'control weather'... *lights a candle* My name is vincent takeda, and I'm a mageoholic.
Thats sort of why I need to make a full caster hybrid... Keeping what I love and trying new things shouldn't be so mutually exclusive... Especially when I clearly don't care for most of the special fluff theyve added to wizards and sorcerers in this edition... When the campaign started the character was a wizard/summoner gestalt... but wrapping the mind around a prepared caster/spontaneous caster is an unnatural thing. My gm and I both dont like sorcerers much. Him because he hates that many spells per day, me because I also dont care for that many spells per day and also hate tiny pools of spells known and hate bloodlines. But I like 9th level spontaneous casting, and its widely regarded that thats something only a sorcerer can do.
I did find a place where the new nerf creates a problem, and thats at level 10.. I should have 40 spells known at level 10 but only 35 spells in that level range available to him... If I dont yet have access to 5th level spells at level 10 then I'm spending the levels 10-13 not having any new spells because I'm gaining 4 spells per level and dont have access to that spell level for 4 whole levels... Not a bad price to pay for potentially getting 9th level spells at level 16... but I also think Raider would really hate the notion of the class getting 9th level spells earlier than even a wizard.... Looks like keeping 9th level spells and using the summoner table for spells per day isnt going to be viable. Might be going back to sorcerer primary anyway based on that... Find a different angle...
nerf the bejeezus outta the eidolon, and reduce the spells per day by one (so what crossblooded looks like but minus the bonus spells).
Thoughts on Fey eidolon balance.No size increase evolutions
Can only buy Charisma ability score increases(it's thematic for fey)
Restricted to humanoid shape
This stuff is in and of itself a huge nerf to the concept of a combat eidolon and reduces it to the role of a very versatile familiar.
So back to the wizards spells per day table but now its all 1's instead of 2s... we're down to 1 spell per level per day before attribute bonuses... then no size evolutions... phreow... that migh tbe a little much.
I'd go for maybe keeping the wizard spell table with 2's, and no large evolution... I still kinda want to hang on to her con evolutions because it feels like despite the fact that she's supposed to be on the front line, only having 52-97 hit points at 20th level is likely to get her one shotted far too frequently and thats a problem without backup summons. I've never played 20th level pathfinder though so i'm not sure what the incoming DPR looks like at 20... Putting d6 on the front line is already a dangerous situation... a 15th level d6er on the front line of a dc 20 fight seems like suicide... DR10 and a 16 con are not much survivability comfort at that stage...
So back to the wizards spells per day table but now its all 1's instead of 2s... we're down to 1 spell per level per day before attribute bonuses... then no size evolutions... phreow... that migh tbe a little much.
I'd go for maybe keeping the wizard spell table with 2's, and no large evolution... I still kinda want to hang on to her con evolutions because it feels like despite the fact that she's supposed to be on the front line, only having 52-97 hit points at 20th level is likely to get her one shotted far too frequently and thats a problem without backup summons. I've never played 20th level pathfinder though so i'm not sure what the incoming DPR looks like at 20... Putting d6 on the front line is already a dangerous situation... a 15th level d6er on the front line of a dc 20 fight seems like suicide... DR10 and a 16 con are not much survivability comfort at that stage...
how about restricting them to a number of ability score increase evolutions equal to the sorcerer charisma modifier. or simply add unearthly grace as a 3 point evolution so that they may gain their charisma modifier as a deflection bonus to AC.
Hmm. With attribute evolutions only available every 6 levels per attribute, thats a +6 cha... if she did nothing but cha bonuses she'd wind up at 20... for a +5 armor class bonus... but then she'd defintely be on the front line with only 52 hit points... if he's a d6 and she's a d6, and neither of them are con focused, thats the holy grail of glass cannons... she'd very likely get hit so hard that when she got hit, he'd explode 60 feet away... which is funny to think about but not something i'd actually want to play, heheheheh.
I do really have to build her with the mindset that she's going to be on the front lines with a 5 level deficit and a d6... she's going to get hit and can't be dipping into my hit points every time something connects, which I hear at level 20 is pretty much everything all the time... Hit points are a big deal... Take them any further down and she'll just be a 'piñata eidolon', heheheheh.
If every hit she takes will kill her outright, and every time I save her carries enough residual damage to nearly kill me outright, it starts to not only negate her relevance on the battlefield entirely and almost negates the relevance of lifelink. Unlike the eidolon, when I die I dont get to come back tomorrow.