Paizo Top Nav Branding
  • Hello, Guest! |
  • Sign In |
  • My Account |
  • Shopping Cart |
  • Help/FAQ
About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog Help/FAQ
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game

Starfinder


Pathfinder Society


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game

Hell, Devils, Archdevils, Whore Queens, and the Damned


Pathfinder Campaign Setting General Discussion

201 to 226 of 226 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>

Right. For more modern citings, Herman Hesse referred to Abraxas in Demian, and from there the reference made its way into Ikuhara's Revolutionary Girl Utena.


Is Mr. Schneider still taking questions? If so, here's one for him. Can a truly exceptional female devil eventually advance to become a new Whore Queen? I always wanted to add a Whore Queen whose influence involved birds, pride, vanity, and the seduction of women (aka a "proud as a peacock" Whore Queen but with the type of power that no male devil would want to risk "ruffling her feathers"). I'm a bit at a loss at a possible name though (I originally thought of Xinivrae but I believe that name might still be the property of WotC).


One question I have is do you see the Drow (Males in general, tired of the female dominant society) turning towards Devil worship and making Asmodeus vs. one of the many demon lords their patron deity? If so here are some side questions that tie into it

In Pathfinder are Devil’s and Demons in constant war with each other like in other RPG systems? If they are not at “war”, would worship of Asmodeus (or any archdevil) be tolerated in the Dark Lands or would this type of worship need to be kept in secret? Because as I read through the Lords of Chaos book it showed many Demon Lords the Drow worship and with there being many (vs. one main god like in 3.5).

This information is to help keep a character’s creation more authentic to pathfinder cannon vs. homebrew alterations to “make it fit” as I want to roll up a Male Drow Wizard/Cleric of Asmodeus (MT Prestige class).


McDaygo wrote:


In Pathfinder are Devil’s and Demons in constant war with each other like in other RPG systems?

Pathfinder does not have the Blood War.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Demons and Devils still hate each other, but they aren't at war any more than they would be at war with Angels.


That is good to know but do you think Asmodeus worship in the Dark Lands would be tolerated in a city or where Demon Lord worship is dominate would this be kept on the down low?

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

McDaygo wrote:
That is good to know but do you think Asmodeus worship in the Dark Lands would be tolerated in a city or where Demon Lord worship is dominate would this be kept on the down low?

The Evil gods tend to be jealous types. Generally speaking, if you have ANY differing religion in an area dominated by one specific Evil faith, you should expect conversion by the sword.


In my language the names of the Malbranche are less than threatening. Any suggestions for non-canon alternatives?

Editor-in-Chief

1 person marked this as a favorite.

If I were looking to rename these characters in ways that have similarly ominous impacts, but that don't have specific meanings in Italian, I might suggest the following options.

The first set takes the existing names and replaces them with the names of fallen angels (as listed in Gustav Davidson's A Dictionary of Angels, Including the Fallen Angels).

■ Alichino - Astoreth
■ Barbariccia - Balberith
■ Cagnazzo - Caym
■ Calcabrina - Carnivean
■ Ciriatto - Carreu
■ Draghignazzo - Danjal
■ Farfarello - Ezequeel
■ Graffiacane - Gressil
■ Libicocco - Lauviah
■ Malacoda - Marchosias
■ Rubicante - Raum
■ Scarmiglione - Senciner

Alternatively, if you'd like less directly Judeo-Christian options, try these from Theresa Bane's Encyclopedia of Demons in World Religions and Cultures.

■ Alichino - Ayperor
■ Barbariccia - Bensozia
■ Cagnazzo - Chordeva
■ Calcabrina - Ciuapipiltin
■ Ciriatto - Conferentes
■ Draghignazzo - Diralisen
■ Farfarello - Finaxos
■ Graffiacane - Gandarewa
■ Libicocco - Librabis
■ Malacoda - Mascarvin
■ Rubicante - Ramaratz
■ Scarmiglione - Serguliath

Hopefully these (or some combination of these) are helpful and don't come off as silly in your language in the same way.

(Longer post and reasoning here)

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Bensozia might have meaning if there are 1e/2e AD&D players. She was Asmodeus's wife (or, late wife in 2e) in that version of Hell.

Scarab Sages

Hey, I don't know if this has been answered yet, but when was Typhon slain and when did Barbatos appear at Hell's gate? Was it after the rise of man (in other words, is it dated?) I have some ideas for characters who might follow Barbatos, but I also have some theories that might interfere with how I design them.


I'd posted this in the recent thread about Milani, but it probably more properly belongs over here (revised somewhat for more theorythink):

1) Mr. Jacobs has identified as Asmodeus as an ascended devil.

2) Tabris is almost certainly bonkers (more as an occupational hazard than any fault of his own), and the accuracy of his accounts in the Books of the Damned are suspect.

3) This could indicate that Asmodeus was not always a true god, like Asmodeus himself claims.

4) That opens up the possibility that Asmodeus was originally an angel (probably an empyreal lord), became the first devil when he fell from grace, and ascended to godhood as part of the repercussions of his fall. Perhaps as the first fallen celestial he filled a hole in the universe that was previously unknown?

5) Asmodeus as the first fallen angel fits pretty well with the Devil's classic roots.

6) That sort of timeline could mean that the first devils (Asmodeus, Dispater, Mammon, Baalzebub) predate Hell itself - or at least Hell as it now exists in the Pathfinder universe.

7) An amusing ramification is that if Asmodeus is a devil/fallen angel, then he's probably an ascended mortal soul - a lowly origin that he might find mortifying.

8) Which brings up - maybe Ihys wasn't Asmodeus's brother. Maybe he was Asmodeus's maker and master, making Old Scratch's betrayal and eventual deicide against Ihys an actual rebellion.

9) Second amusing ramification - assuming Ihys as a common creator, that could make Sarenrae Asmodeus's little sister, as much as the term applies to such beings.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

If Asmodeus is an ascended something, it can't be a devil, because his role as master of all the devils is so complete I can only imagine him as their maker. (Pathfinder lacks the idea that he usurped another Devil, and thus is on guard against betrayal from below: he's not just the greatest archdevil, he's a deity.)

That doesn't rule out the classical 'paradise lost' fallen angel origin: That makes Asmodeus the first devil, and all the other devils either his creation or angels that fell with him, which is fine. Being the 'first X' is a canon way to become a God: Urgathoa was the first undead, for instance.

To riff on Ihys being Asmodeus's maker, what if Ihys was the original ruler of Hell, either as a fallen angel of the same vintage as Asmodeus (making Ihys into D&D's Lucifer) that Asmodeus supplanted, or as the 'native' God before Asmodeus showed up with a bunch of refugee Devils/Angels and negotiated a partnership that turned into a betrayal?

In either of those cases, Asmodeus stole Ihys's Godhead.


Boo! I like the history Tabris gave us. Who says the conspiracy nutter hasn't got the right of it?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think the point is that the mythology is more interesting if we can't say "this is definitely the right answer". Maybe Asmodeus' self-proclaimed history is right. Maybe he's lying. Since we can argue over which one is true, that gives depth and interest to the situation, rather than "according to The Big Book of Facts, page 314, my position is objectively true. No more discussion!"


I note that the only info we get in Inner Sea Gods sticks to the Tabris account.

Grand Lodge

Ross Byers wrote:
If Asmodeus is an ascended something, it can't be a devil, because his role as master of all the devils is so complete I can only imagine him as their maker.

When the Creative Director of the game says something, it's generally good to take him at his word. If Jacobs says that Asmodeus is an Ascended Devil, the only reason to have problems with that, is that the whole story simply has not been revealed.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I am free to reject canon in favor of an explanation I prefer. For instance, I also reject Mythic Realms' explanation of the Starstone.


Why is it so weird to think that Asmodeus is an ascended devil? Sarenrae is an ascended angel.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Major_Blackhart wrote:
Why is it so weird to think that Asmodeus is an ascended devil? Sarenrae is an ascended angel.

Because Devils are sort of by definition 'servants of Hell'. And Hell is a LE hierarchy. Someone is in charge of Hell. If Asmodeus is an ascended devil, then who was the ruler of Hell when he was still just a devil, and what happened to him/her? I don't reject Asmodeus as an ascended outsider in general: Devils being fallen angels is an old trope. But being ascended from the ranks of devilkind rubs me the wrong way.

Angels don't have the same 'someone is in charge' problem.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

On the other hand, there have been several instances where different Paizo people disagree on certain elements of the setting. I tend to look more toward Wes Schneider as the devil expert, and go with his views on things.

Grand Lodge

Ross Byers wrote:
I am free to reject canon in favor of an explanation I prefer. For instance, I also reject Mythic Realms' explanation of the Starstone.

Any particular reason outside of personal preference? The Mythic Realms model at least is opened ended enough so that you can have an adventure involving the Starstone without it being the end of your campaign. Because that's what happens when you make PC's into gods... end of PC's story.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

LazarX wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
I am free to reject canon in favor of an explanation I prefer. For instance, I also reject Mythic Realms' explanation of the Starstone.
Any particular reason outside of personal preference? The Mythic Realms model at least is opened ended enough so that you can have an adventure involving the Starstone without it being the end of your campaign. Because that's what happens when you make PC's into gods... end of PC's story.

Because for years the Starstone was this mysterious power source that could bootstrap mortals to Godhood, and now is less a power source and more something you can blackmail Gods into giving you power with.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ross Byers wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ross Byers wrote:
I am free to reject canon in favor of an explanation I prefer. For instance, I also reject Mythic Realms' explanation of the Starstone.
Any particular reason outside of personal preference? The Mythic Realms model at least is opened ended enough so that you can have an adventure involving the Starstone without it being the end of your campaign. Because that's what happens when you make PC's into gods... end of PC's story.
Because for years the Starstone was this mysterious power source that could bootstrap mortals to Godhood, and now is less a power source and more something you can blackmail Gods into giving you power with.

Actually only Aroden did that, and he didn't so much as blackmail the Gods , but rather they noticed what they had done, and offered him a deal of godhood in exchange for securing the stone from casual idiot access.

What the Starstone actually is still isn't revealed and most will be something left up to GMs to determine. If you want to bootstrap your PC's to godhood and retire them on the spot....YOU CAN. If however you want to continue the story of your PC's after the Starstone test, the new description gives you an out to do so. What Paizo did is essentially to expand your options with it as DM.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Necroing this thread because the primary architect of Pathfinder's take on Hell just left Paizo. I am currently listening to Castlevania music as I do this, because that seems right.

Various bits of new info that had come to light over the past couple years:

1) Asmodeus used to be an empyreal lord. While he's an old god at this point (like Sarenrae), he's almost certainly not part of the OG crowd (like Pharasma or the Outer Gods) like he claims he is. His real relationship to Ihys is unknown. (My theory is Ihys created Asmodeus, as I've noted before in this thread.)

2) Asmodeus found Hell while exploring the Great Beyond as an empyreal lord. Even back then, he's been planning rebellion against the heavens, and while exploring the original Hell he met Geryon, an ancient Asura rana.

3) Asmodeus recruited Moloch, a powerful exscinder archon shortly before beginning his rebellion against the heavens. Moloch, in its unquestioning obedience to Asmodeus, found new purpose as an ironclad demigod of war.

4) Asmodeus had already been planning to fall back to Hell before he even rebelled, and led his forces there when the appropriate time came for Exodus.

5) Asmodeus then entered into a contract with Hell itself, becoming its (her?) undisputed master. In exchange, he transformed a layer of Hell, Cania, into the first archdevil Mephistopheles. The Red Prince is Hell made flesh, and acts as the mouthpiece of the entire plane.

6) Asmodeus, with Geryon's aid, managed to defeat the various Asuran Ranans, Kyton Demagogues, and other demigods who already held most of Hell's territory. Asmodeus rewarded Geryon by transforming it from an Asura into an archdevil and affirming its status as now undisputed lord of Stygia, its home layer in Hell.

7) Some time long after that, the psychopomp usher Mahathallah passed journeyed through the River of Souls so that she could be judged by her mistress Pharasma and learn of her ultimate fate. What she learned horrified her so much that she abandoned her station and duties, and ultimately entered into service under Asmodeus to try to escape it, becoming one of the Queens of the Night (a.k.a., one of Whore Queens).

8) Between Hell Unleashed, Bestiary 6, and comments by Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Schneider, we got some nice updates on the upper end of Hell's hierarchy -

A) - the Dukes of Hell, advanced pitfiends with extra hit dice, special abilities, and class levels, generally CR 21 to 25 (like demonic balor lords and kyton eremite overlords)
B) - the conquering Malebranche - unique CR 21 to 25 quasideities, like nascent demon lords and daemonic harbingers. While we have not yet seen a malebrance in print, Mr. Jacobs has indicated he'd like for them to have custom abilities reflecting the planet they are tasked with conquering.
C) Infernal Dukes and Queens of the Nights - CR 26 to 30 demideities, capable of possessing divine realms within the layers of the Hell. The peers of demon lords and empyreal lords.
D) The Archdevils, CR 26 to 30 demideities who each claim an entire layer of Hell as a divine realm. The peers of the Four Horsemen.
E) Asmodeus (and perhaps Hell itself) at the top, of course.

Interestingly enough, Archdevils and Infernal Dukes are nearly identical in terms of mechanics. The actual difference is the sheer scale of the forces and territory commanded by an Archdevil, up to and including all of of the Infernal Dukes and their realms and forces within a plane.

Which also neatly summarizes the difference between the chaotic evil demons and the lawful evil devils.

Nocticula, a CR 30 demon lord, cannot risk sharing her territory with another demon lord and is pushing her luck even employing a nascent demon lord (Shamira). Even Lamashtu, an actual goddess, wasn't willing to risk hosting Baphomet in her court once he become an actual demon lord (and demigod).

Meanwhile, Barbatos, the weakest Archdevil at CR 26 (and not actually a devil at all!), commands the loyalty and cooperation of potentially dozens of infernal dukes who are individually just as strong or actually stronger than it is. But Asmodeus put Barbatos in charge, and thus it is the boss.

Devils actually care about the chain of command, and can trust each other to follow it.

Demons don't and can't.

9) As a goofy thing - Dahak, the chaotic evil dragon god of destruction, was ceded a divine realm by Mephistopheles in the 8th layer of Hell. Dahak in return crafted the artifact quill that Mephistopheles writes its contracts with.

Dahak roamed the "primeval" Hell for a time; I don't know if that means Dahak had been to Hell before Asmodeus ever ruled it. Regardless, Dahak, despite being chaotic evil, gets along well with Asmodeus and Mephistopheles, and has devil servitors.

Hopefully the upcoming Book of the Damned hardcover will provide additional details about Hell. Otherwise we probably won't get more until Mr. Schneider does another archdevil or night queen article.


Personally I have the headcanon that the reason Asmodeus is misogynist is because there are two genders. End of statement.

That is to say, Asmodeus is about hierarchies. If there are two of something, one is above the other. If there were two twin immortals who lived in harmony for eons uncounted, and the only difference visually between them was a hairpart on the right or the left, he would decide to worm his way in and convince one that hairpart is superior and that it's twin should listen to it.

If every being in the universe but him became white on one side, black on the other, he would favor one over the other in hell. He would . Not because he, personally, cares about either and his personal disdain for them is about the same because they're both inferior to him, but everything below him has it's place not just below him but below others, and it is for him to decide that things are ranked.

If he runs into any culture with an inequality, he will use that and if one doesn't exist, he will make that.

Zhangar wrote:

1) Asmodeus used to be an empyreal lord. While he's an old god at this point (like Sarenrae), he's almost certainly not part of the OG crowd (like Pharasma or the Outer Gods) like he claims he is. His real relationship to Ihys is unknown. (My theory is Ihys created Asmodeus, as I've noted before in this thread.)

2) Asmodeus found Hell while exploring the Great Beyond as an empyreal lord. Even back then, he's been planning rebellion against the heavens, and while exploring the original Hell he met Geryon, an ancient Asura rana.

What books are this information from, btw?

201 to 226 of 226 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | next > last >>
Paizo / Messageboards / Paizo / Pathfinder® / Pathfinder Campaign Setting / General Discussion / Hell, Devils, Archdevils, Whore Queens, and the Damned All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.

©2002-2017 Paizo Inc.® | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Need help? Email customer.service@paizo.com or call 425-250-0800 during our business hours, Monday through Friday, 10:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time.

Paizo Inc., Paizo, the Paizo golem logo, Pathfinder, the Pathfinder logo, Pathfinder Society, Starfinder, the Starfinder logo, GameMastery, and Planet Stories are registered trademarks of Paizo Inc. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Pathfinder Adventure Path, Pathfinder Adventure Card Game, Pathfinder Player Companion, Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Tales, Pathfinder Battles, Pathfinder Legends, Pathfinder Online, Starfinder Adventure Path, PaizoCon, RPG Superstar, The Golem's Got It, Titanic Games, the Titanic logo, and the Planet Stories planet logo are trademarks of Paizo Inc. Dungeons & Dragons, Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are registered trademarks of Wizards of the Coast, Inc., a subsidiary of Hasbro, Inc., and have been used by Paizo Inc. under license. Most product names are trademarks owned or used under license by the companies that publish those products; use of such names without mention of trademark status should not be construed as a challenge to such status.