Since the question was too unclear in the last thread I decided to fire up another since the question has come up again.
If a character gains access to a class feature of a class he has no levels in is he allowed to gain archetype modified versions of those abilities or must they be chosen from the base class?
Examples are taking the Amatuer Gunslinger feat to gain Up Close and Personal from the Pistolero archetype or taking eldritch heritage to gain a wildblooded bloodline such as Sylvan.
You have to have the CLASS to take an Archetype, not a Class Feature.
So no.
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I would also say no. Up Close and Personal is not a gunslinger deed in the same way that tree shape is not a wizard spell. There is a way for a gunslinger to get access to the deed(archetype), and there is a way for a wizard to get access to the spell (wood specialist) but I don't think specialized access makes tree shape a "wizard spell" for the purpose of feats. Similarly specialized access should not make archetype deeds and bloodlines available to feats.
There is no rule to support what you are suggesting, but who knows be creative and create the archetype you want and present it to your GM and maybe he'll let it fly.
It's not a personal use question but one looking for a concrete answer. Usually the gunslinger example gets a unanimous no (though one thread had several saying it was legal) but its almost a straight split when wildblooded bloodlines come up.
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It's not a personal use question but one looking for a concrete answer. Usually the gunslinger example gets a unanimous no (though one thread had several saying it was legal) but its almost a straight split when wildblooded bloodlines come up.
There is no rule to support what you are suggesting, but who knows be creative and create the archetype you want and present it to your GM and maybe he'll let it fly.
And as I said in the previous post which you quoted, but apparently did not read. There is no rule to support what you are suggesting. When you find it enlighten the rest of us.
No, you cannot take archetype abilities without being that archetype.
I know there's no new information here, just adding to the consensus.
As a side note, I don't think Wildblood should be an archetype at all--I'd have liked to just see them as Bloodlines with similarities to others.
Archetypes are for a single class :)
If you aren't that class, no luck buddy.
And as I said in the previous post which you quoted, but apparently did not read. There is no rule to support what you are suggesting. When you find it enlighten the rest of us.It's not a personal use question but one looking for a concrete answer. Usually the gunslinger example gets a unanimous no (though one thread had several saying it was legal) but its almost a straight split when wildblooded bloodlines come up.
There is no rule to support what you are suggesting, but who knows be creative and create the archetype you want and present it to your GM and maybe he'll let it fly.
Ill try this again
I personally rule that they are not accessible. However the majority of the time when eldritch heritage is brought up someone recommends a wildblooded archetype bloodline. This becomes the new argument in the thread a lot of the time over whether or not its possible. In one thread it went so far as to insinuate that amatuer gunslinger could be used for archetype abilities. As it seems to pop up once or twice aomth somewhere on the forum I attempted to create a thread to see if we could get clarification.
Ill try this again
I personally rule that they are not accessible. However the majority of the time when eldritch heritage is brought up someone recommends a wildblooded archetype bloodline. This becomes the new argument in the thread a lot of the time over whether or not its possible. In one thread it went so far as to insinuate that amatuer gunslinger could be used for archetype abilities. As it seems to pop up once or twice aomth somewhere on the forum I attempted to create a thread to see if we could get clarification.
The clarification is that it is against the rules. There's no need for official clarification because the rules are obvious.
Wildbloodlines are awkward and a lot of people don't think of them as archetypes because most just think of them as different bloodlines, not archetypes for certain bloodlines. But no, you can't Eldritch Heritage a wildbloodline.
Ill try this again
I personally rule that they are not accessible. However the majority of the time when eldritch heritage is brought up someone recommends a wildblooded archetype bloodline. This becomes the new argument in the thread a lot of the time over whether or not its possible. In one thread it went so far as to insinuate that amatuer gunslinger could be used for archetype abilities. As it seems to pop up once or twice aomth somewhere on the forum I attempted to create a thread to see if we could get clarification.
The clarification is that it is against the rules. There's no need for official clarification because the rules are obvious.
Wildbloodlines are awkward and a lot of people don't think of them as archetypes because most just think of them as different bloodlines, not archetypes for certain bloodlines. But no, you can't Eldritch Heritage a wildbloodline.
I houserule the wildbloodlines as bloodlines, not archetypes, but RAW you are correct that wildblooded is an archetype.
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And as I said in the previous post which you quoted, but apparently did not read. There is no rule to support what you are suggesting. When you find it enlighten the rest of us.It's not a personal use question but one looking for a concrete answer. Usually the gunslinger example gets a unanimous no (though one thread had several saying it was legal) but its almost a straight split when wildblooded bloodlines come up.
There is no rule to support what you are suggesting, but who knows be creative and create the archetype you want and present it to your GM and maybe he'll let it fly.Ill try this again
I personally rule that they are not accessible. However the majority of the time when eldritch heritage is brought up someone recommends a wildblooded archetype bloodline. This becomes the new argument in the thread a lot of the time over whether or not its possible. In one thread it went so far as to insinuate that amatuer gunslinger could be used for archetype abilities. As it seems to pop up once or twice aomth somewhere on the forum I attempted to create a thread to see if we could get clarification.
It probably pops up once or twice because YOU Keep bringing it up once or twice. So what are you trying again?
Would you like the thread links Nihmon? I can at the very least go and provide links to the ones I've posted in. Try searching for eldritch heritage + sylvan bloodline that will get you started the only threads I've created on the issue are intended to get a clarification one way or the other. If you think I have an agenda check my posting and thread record I tend to lay out exactly what I want to know up front not try to backdoor it in off of another ruling.
RAW the eldritch heritage and Sylvan argument does not work. Paizo will have to eventually say they count as normal bloodlines for the purpose of the eldritch heritage feat, or say they dont. They never should have needed an archetype anyway, just like the variant domain abilities for clerics don't need an archetype, but that is neither here nor there.
Then of course the question of whether or not you can get the animal companion is still in question because Sylvan does not work like the other bloodlines.
That is a two-question all on its on, just for the sorcerer issue.
I think you would get more support by having each situation be its own thread. They might even explain why each situation does and does not work.
That's probably what I need to do wraith if this fails to pan out. It's just I figured that these were close enough that short of wildblooded getting a special ruling one ruling would cover both cases.
recent FAQ by the dev team this may make me rethink my position on sorcerer at least.
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
Most archetype abilities specifically say they change or replace the normal ability. Obviously, the ones that change the ability count as it.
recent FAQ by the dev team this may make me rethink my position on sorcerer at least.
Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)
Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
I'd say this allows wildblooded crossblooded sorcerers.
I agree I'm also in the mind that it would allow eldritch heritage to be used for wildblooded.
I agree I'm also in the mind that it would allow eldritch heritage to be used for wildblooded.
I'd allow it, but that's more of a grey area. You have to be a sorcerer to take an archetype and you can only get wildblooded bloodline from one. Now the feat lets you "treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2" but I'm not willing to say that's let you take an archetype by RAW.