Who's the better healer, Cleric or Oracles of Life?


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Liberty's Edge

My group is doing a Rise of the Rune Lords campaign for the first time and I decided that I wanted to be the healer. I have been told that we will be playing up to level 20. At first I was going to make a cleric, but then I heard about the Life mystery for oracles and how great it is for healing.

So in short I just wanted to ask (assuming that I won't multiclass) who is the better combat healer between Clerics or Oracles of Life and why?
I've never played either class, nor have I been a healer so I want to try and be as good at it as I can.


ORacles of life are better healers hands down.

However this will be pretty much all you can really do. A cleric's strength lies in the many things it can do. Specialization is a choice made in character not enforced by class choices.

The other thing of note here is that healing isn't everything you need to do as a divine caster, in fact it's so minor many experienced groups push the job of after combat healer on to some group invested wands.


It is a coin-toss for me. Spontaneous casters have their advantages ... and drawbacks. Oracles of Life have access to some neat tricks for in-combat, while-threatened uses of the Heal skill and with magic.

Clerics, however, can channel "for free" and their domains can be very, very formidable. They also gain access to the restorative non-cure wounds spells earlier. The Healing domain is a must.

Whichever way you go, you have some homework ahead of you. I normally do not recommend "planning", but in your situation mapping your character out to 19th in both classes in terms of feats/abilities/etc - but not gear - level by level will put things in better comparison than anything else can.

Which way you go then depends on how you like the "look" of your healer.

Dark Archive

In my experience the Life Oracle blows the Cleric away in healing abilities, but they are focused more into healing. They can still do a lot but healing is their thing.

Dark Archive

TarkXT wrote:

ORacles of life are better healers hands down.

However this will be pretty much all you can really do. A cleric's strength lies in the many things it can do. Specialization is a choice made in character not enforced by class choices.

The other thing of note here is that healing isn't everything you need to do as a divine caster, in fact it's so minor many experienced groups push the job of after combat healer on to some group invested wands.

Oracles of Life are the best healers. It's true at the lower levels you can't do a whole lot else, but you can definitely become as good at the other things as a cleric. You already get the cure spells from being an oracle, and a lot of condition removing spell from the life mystery. So you just need to pick good buff/debuff spells for your spells known. Pick up quick channel at 5th level, and you can actually do enough healing to matter in combat a few times a day because sometimes you do need some healing in combat, and wands just don't cut it.


As someone relatively unfamiliar with PF and totally unfamiliar with a Life Oracle (but very familiar with 3.5 and earlier) what makes a Life Oracle a better healer? What spells and abilities do Life Oracles have that a cleric doesn't that makes them so vastly superior? Because, forgive me, but that seems very likely to be hyperbole?


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Oracle of Life is the absolute best healer out there. But I would strongly advise coming up with a number of tricks to do in battle other than heal, because chances are that there won't be a party member at death's door every single round of combat, and you'll find yourself passing your turn, waiting for damage, and that's a bad place to be in.

Proactive vs Reactive:
If you aren't making enemies deader faster, (or buffing allies/debuffing enemies) you're wasting the most precious resource in the game; turns.

What's better? Killing an enemy this turn? Or killing him next turn, because you couldn't do anything to help bring him down, after he successfully hit an ally, which now you must spend channel energy/spells on.

To sum up: It's better for damage to never happen than to have to heal it.

Contribute to Combat Part 1: Burn spells?:
One thing I did for the Oracle of life in my Rise of the Runelords campaign, is I gave her Scorching Ray and a few other burn spells. I'm not sure if it's available to you, but there's an Aasimar specific oracle curse called Blackened which allows you to add a few burns spells to your spell list. I swear, although burn spells aren't always the best use of spells, one combat she really came through where the frontliners weren't, dealing 8d6 damage to the big bad a few rounds in a row.

Part 2: Melee:
Anyway, if that option is not available to you, perhaps try for at least 14 strength? As a mid BAB class, you shouldn't be completely useless as a melee type, but not great either. You'll probably be using a morningstar and have to utilize what bonuses you can, like flanking and charging to get in a few good hits.

Part 3: Demoralize:
A few other things you may wish to consider is maxing out your intimidate skill. You should be quite good at this, with your charisma score, so spending a turn, not wasting spells, to demoralize a foe for a few rounds is not a bad way to contribute when there's no one to heal.

Part 4: Other Spells:
Between having all of the cure spells on your list, and the Oracle of Life spells giving you a solid suite of support spells to round out your role as healer, most of the rest of your spell picks should be oriented toward giving you something else to do in combat that's not healing or some handy non-healing out of combat utility. Your revelations should do most of the heavy lifting for you in terms of hit point damage, so be sure to capitalize on a good selection of spells.

Races for Oracles of Life: Humans:
Humans, whose favored class bonus allows you to gain additional spells known, have a huge advantage in versatility over most races. Skilled, the Bonus Feat, and the +2 to any stat (Charisma) of course are very nice perks, as always.

The best(?) race: Aasimar, the greatest channel energy user:
My absolute favorite race is the aasimar. They have the all important boost to Cha and no negative stat, so that's solid. Their favored class bonus is absolutely busted; it allows you to treat your Oracle level as 1/2 higher for the purpose of a revelation of your choosing. My favorite? Channel Energy. At level 10, you're channeling 8d6, as opposed to 5d6. Combine that with Selective Channel, Quick Channel, (to channel as a move action) and Extra Channel and you'll find that your ability to heal in combat is so great, you can actually spend your standard action doing something else. (Although you can still use your standard action to heal in a pinch) You may even want to try out the Aasimar specific feats, like Channel Force, although mostly this hasn't come up in my campaign.

And of course, if Aasimar means you have access to the Blackened Curse, that's another good reason to try them out; burn spells do complement your otherwise passive skill set. (And allow you to make Str a dump stat!) You want to contribute to depleting the health of the big bad every now and then!

Archetype... Dual-Cursed?:
I really like this archetype. I think the replacement spells are overall a bit better than the Oracle of Life's. (Detect Undead, Lesser Restoration, Neutralize Poison vs Ill Omen, Oracles Burden, Bestow Curse) And of course the big draw is getting those extra revelations at levels 5 and 13. Those are pure gold. Not to mention access to the amazingly powerful Misfortune and Fortune revelations.

While getting a second curse that never advances is rough, it shouldn't ruin you if you choose the right ones. The Oracle of Life in my campaign has Blackened (Aasimar curse) and Tongues (Non-advancing). Her character usually doesn't need much coordination in combat anyhow, just heal whoever gets hurt, or burn enemies to death. And if your allies care enough, they can always put a rank in linguistics to speak Celestial, Ignan, or whatever language you chose.

Revelations; why the Oracle of Life is a Heal Cannon:
Channel is my favorite. Yeah, it's just extra heal, but that's what you're going to be doing as the party healer and huzzah! You don't have to expend precious spells to do it well. Check the Aasimar section for ways to REALLY maximize this ability

Life Link is my second favorite. It's like your entire party gains fast healing 5! Of course you take this damage, so be mindful of that. Although this doesn't scale with level and becomes less major as you go up in levels, its never irrelevant. I think this does a good job of spreading the damage around, so your channel energy does more. Don't forget that you can cut off a link if you think you're taking too much damage! And remember to do what you can to bump up your con score (2nd most important stat, I think) and consider taking toughness to help truly max out the potential of this revelation.

Energy Body is another easy pick. Beyond the standard action to get it going, it helps you really stack on the in-combat heals by healing without spending more actions on it. And it also makes for a solid after combat source of healing. Let life bond fast healing 5 your party back up to full, and use this on yourself! And don't forget the other perks of this in combat; immunity to critical hits, sneak attack damage, poisons, and whole bunch of other stuff I can't remember off the top of my head; all of the stuff that comes with being an Elemental.

Combat healer. Yowza. Heal as a swift action with this, heal as a move action with quick channel, heal as a free action with life link, heal as a free action with Energy body... Heck, by this point you might want spend your standard action on something else!

Other revelations: Lifesense seems like a nifty trick when eyesight is failing you; Spirit boost seems like a nice way to note waste healing. Enhanced Cures doesn't seem that necessary, but hey Cure Light Wounds for d8+15 is one way to conserve spells.

I could probably come up with even more insights on the Oracle of Life, but this should be good for a start. (I hope!)

And don't forget to check out this guide, especially if you're struggling on deciding which spells you want to pick: Channeling the Cosmos: A Guide to the Oracle


Pathfinder LO Special Edition Subscriber

Life oracle in my experience. They can do some pretty ridiculous amounts of healing. Life Bond is the key in my opinion. It basically cuts damage to party members and causes it on the oracle instead. Since you're spreading the damage out more, their channels become much more effective.


Kayerloth wrote:
As someone relatively unfamiliar with PF and totally unfamiliar with a Life Oracle (but very familiar with 3.5 and earlier) what makes a Life Oracle a better healer? What spells and abilities do Life Oracles have that a cleric doesn't that makes them so vastly superior? Because, forgive me, but that seems very likely to be hyperbole?

- the same healing spell selection potential as the cleric (although a bit slower)

- Channel Energy ability that increases in uses per day based on casting stat
- ability to auto-heal party members by 5 points every round by transferring it to yourself, this also spreads the damage for more efficient healing
- ability to enter a light elemental form for a whole new method of healing
- ability to cast spells that heal hitpoints without causing AOOs
- ability to swift action cast cure spells
- ability to heal more with small cure spells than the cleric
- ability to heal above max hitpoints as temporary hitpoints

It's really, really tough to get all of the above. You pick and choose.

More or less, an oracle can "specialize" to a degree that a cleric can't. That's their forte over clerics. Clerics can "generalize" far better than oracles.

If what you want is to be good at a limited set of things, then it's hard to beat the oracle over the cleric.


1. Oracle max. base number of spells per day is 6 clercs is 4+1.
2. As a life oracle you can have Channel but you chr will likly be much higher
3. You if you select the ‎Mystery you can cast cure spell quickned by expanding two spell slots
4. Energy Body can be realy great out of combat healing.

So now you will say my cleric just uses cure light wound wand and can do the same. But high level parties just burn this little healing sticks so fast it's much more cost effectiv this way.

Life Oracle are the only healers that can make in combat healing realy matter. For example the complet party is at low health the oracle could.

1. Cast a cure spell quickened (Combat Healer)
2. Channel as a move action (Quick Channel)
3. Cast a cure spell as standard action

So much healing in a single turn can turn a battle completly around.

Breiti

Dark Archive

Kayerloth wrote:
As someone relatively unfamiliar with PF and totally unfamiliar with a Life Oracle (but very familiar with 3.5 and earlier) what makes a Life Oracle a better healer? What spells and abilities do Life Oracles have that a cleric doesn't that makes them so vastly superior? Because, forgive me, but that seems very likely to be hyperbole?

1) They can get channel like a cleric, but they do it better because cha is their casting and channel stat, so they can pump cha.

2) They have revelations that can let them cast cure spells as swift actions, not have to cast cure spells defensively, eliminate the level cap on cure spells, as well as some others. Clerics cannot do these things.
3) They automatically get cure spells and condition removal spells as spells known due to their class and mystery. They can spend their spells known slots on other clericy goodness.


Oh another thing to be mindful of is nonlethal damage with an Oracle of Life. With life link, you can heal them for 5 lethal and nonlethal with just 5 hp of your own.

A cute combo the party came up with was casting Ablative Barrier on several frontliners in the party, basically doubling the healing they get from life link.

Another character in the party is an Order of the Sheild Samurai, who also converts lethal damage to nonlethal damage with his Resolute ability. He really loves that life link.


Thanks all they do seem to have a very strong edge in the curing department over a cleric.


I can definitely vouch for the effectiveness of the Oracle- the Aasimar makes an excellent racial choice for the class by the way. I'm a few sessions into a Rappan Athuk game and I can clearly see how invaluable our Life Oracle will be- he can pretty much Life Bond the entire party, contribute to combat here and there and just make sure that he keeps his HP up for the rounds where he takes 15-20 of damage from the Life Bond.


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The Hospitaler Paladin is the best healer of hit point damage that I have ever played. The Oracle of Life is a close second, but has better, earlier, removal of other negative effects (curses, for example) so it evens out in the end. Cleric is not even on my radar. Not enough incentive to take Charisma for channeling and while they can spontaneously cure, they can't spontaneously "remove."

To me, the choice is "Do I want to be a back up tank/hitter or a back up controller?"

And to those saying, "healing in combat is a sucker's game," it's not if you do it right. But doing it right feels counter intuitive because you're mostly healing yourself.

The trick is in Shield Other and Life Link. You take damage for the party, making sure it's all spread around. Then you use Channels (which are crappy single target heals and extremely efficient group heals) and action-economy breaking self heals (Swift Lay on Hands or Move Energy Body). You're definitely starting with Fey Foundling--if you can get your whole group to grab it (or at least the main tank), you're golden.


Kayerloth wrote:
As someone relatively unfamiliar with PF and totally unfamiliar with a Life Oracle (but very familiar with 3.5 and earlier) what makes a Life Oracle a better healer? What spells and abilities do Life Oracles have that a cleric doesn't that makes them so vastly superior? Because, forgive me, but that seems very likely to be hyperbole?

The cleric and oracle have the same spell list so there is not spells that one has the other does not. The oracle has a limited number of spells but can chose which one to cast, while the cleric can only cast what they have memorized. As far as spell casting they are about the same.

Both the cleric and life oracle can channel positive energy. The cleric and channel 3 + CHA modifies times per day, while an oracle gets 1 + CHA modifier. Since CHA is the oracles most important stat the life oracle actually ends up with the same if not more channels per day than a cleric. The oracle will have a higher saving throw when damaging undead so has a slight advantage here.

So far they are about equal at healing, but what really gives the life oracle the advantage are the revelations of the life mystery. Spirit Boost allows them to grant temporary hp if they heal more damage than the target has taken. Enhanced Cures keeps replaces the maximum extra hp healed to equal your level, so a cure light wounds cast by a 20th level oracle cures 1d8+20 instead of 1d8+5. Other revelations give similar abilities a cleric simply cannot match. At early levels they are about equal at healing but as the oracle levels up he starts to out heal any cleric.

The cleric has a major advantage that he is a lot more versatile. He has a large selection of spells, but has to prepare them. Domains not only give them extra powers, but sometimes access to spells the oracle does not have. It is pretty clear the life oracle is a better healer than the cleric, which is what the original poster was asking. Who is more powerful is an entirely different question.


Someone did the math on it in a thread similar to this once.

If I remember correctly the Cleric with the healing domain was actually better if you built it expressly for this purpose, ie going for channeling, something a lot of cleric builds kind of put aside.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Life Oracles are the best healers, but if you're the player who always hated being the "Heal-Bot", it's not the class for you.


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The nice thing about the Cleric is that they can be Healers one day, and Buffers/Damage Dealers the next. Or even the same day.

Shadow Lodge

I'd go with the Oracle. I love the Cleric (as a concept) but clearly the Oracle is just better. The Cleric doesn't really have anything that an oracle can't also do, and tends to do it better. For the Cleric, pretty much everything is set in stone at level 1, (minus spell selection, which doesn't really change to much), where with the Oracle, they get to switch things up all the time. If a class ability starts to get less useful, than it will not be long before they get the next ability to use instead, and they tend to improve with levels a lot better than the Cleric's generally pretty crappy ones early on.

The Cleric has pretty much the entire list, and it would seem like that's a huge benefit, but the truth is, most Cleric's prepped spells will look nearly identical, with minor changes here and there for what I certain build will likely (or can) use. Even the Domain sells generally just do not add anything they couldn't already do, with maybe one or two exceptions, but that's only going to maybe be 1/day. Now the Oracle doesn't get their full list known (but they do for wands and scrolls, which is itself a huge boon). They pick a handful of spells that they can cast at will, in any order, which beats the heck out of prepping specific numbers of spells, especially for a group healer who doesn't just heal HP. Need 2 Remove Poisons, the Oracle has you covered, the Cleric needs to pick who gets it, assuming that both have it, and it's just as likely, in my opinion, that one would over the other.

Now we look at versatility, and the Oracle still wins here, (assuming that the Cleric is not super optimized while the oracle isn't, that is to say that both are built equally well). The Oracle gets a bunch of other class abilities that really synergize well with itself and do not use up spell resources, or boost them to max effectiveness. The Cleric doesn't. The Oracle is based off of just Cha, while the Cleric needs to split between Wis and Cha, meaning the Oracle gets yet more bang for their buck, and has the option to pick and choose which options they want, while the Cleric gets 2 at level 1, and another two between 4th - 8th, with 8th being much, much more common. No options, just they get specific new abilities.

Next we compare their spells. It will turn out that the spontaneous SAD oracle both gets more spells per day, but also has practically the same versatility in their selection, because for the most part, both will have a extremely similar selection of options when it comes down to it. Many Cleric spells are just bad, and there are only a handful that are very useful. Look at a Cleric's prepped spell list and you likely to see a few spells prepped multiple times, and an absolute lack of others. For a low level cleric, Divine Favor Bless, Shield of Faith, and Prot From Evil are probably going to be used more than once for the extra slots available, because they know that they will very likely need them no matter what they come up against. Command is another one. Summon Monster. So the Oracle gets fewer spells known, but has the really big advantage of not needing to pick how many of the very few they would choose from anyway that they will need. If they Choose Bless, Divine Favor, and Prot From Evil, and turn out to be fighting nothing but animals, they can fall back on just casting Bless and Divine Favor, and not have a wasted spell, and they automatically get Cures.

Liberty's Edge

Wow, thank you so much for all of the responses. :)
I'm sorry that it has taken me this long to respond, work has been so crazy that I haven't had 2 seconds to myself.
I think that I will make an Oracle of Life with the blackened curse. Also, I've been looking this one up and it doesn't appear to be Aasimar only, so I might make a Human Oracle that mainly heals but also blasts a little bit (due to blackened).

Once again, thank you all for your input. :D


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"Devil's Advocate" wrote:
I'd go with the Oracle. I love the Cleric (as a concept) but clearly the Oracle is just better. The Cleric doesn't really have anything that an oracle can't also do, and tends to do it better. For the Cleric, pretty much everything is set in stone at level 1, (minus spell selection, which doesn't really change to much), where with the Oracle, they get to switch things up all the time. If a class ability starts to get less useful, than it will not be long before they get the next ability to use instead, and they tend to improve with levels a lot better than the Cleric's generally pretty crappy ones early on.

Actually no. It's true clerics make most of their choices at level 1. But they have the entirety of their domain list to choose from depending on game and GM whims. Their is no path to a specific theme.

Also low level abilities of both oracles and clerics vary. Oracles have some real losers as well as clerics.

Quote:
The Cleric has pretty much the entire list, and it would seem like that's a huge benefit, but the truth is, most Cleric's prepped spells will look nearly identical, with minor changes here and there for what I certain build will likely (or can) use. Even the Domain sells generally just do not add anything they couldn't already do, with maybe one or two exceptions, but that's only going to maybe be 1/day. Now the Oracle doesn't get their full list known (but they do for wands and scrolls, which is itself a huge boon). They pick a handful of spells that they can cast at will, in any order, which beats the heck out of prepping specific numbers of spells, especially for a group healer who doesn't just heal HP. Need 2 Remove Poisons, the Oracle has you covered, the Cleric needs to pick who gets it, assuming that both have it, and it's just as likely, in my opinion, that one would over the other.

Open slots and Scribe Scroll basically nullify this advantage completely. Sure the oracle can cast remove poison 4 times a day. The trouble is he's stuck with remove poison until he switches out 4 levels later (or so). The trouble is the oracle is just a very very proactive prep caster who is prepping for the next level where the cleric is prepping for the next day. We'll talk more on this later.

Also the exact same thing can be said about wizards and sorcerers.

Quote:
Now we look at versatility, and the Oracle still wins here, (assuming that the Cleric is not super optimized while the oracle isn't, that is to say that both are built equally well). The Oracle gets a bunch of other class abilities that really synergize well with itself and do not use up spell resources, or boost them to max effectiveness. The Cleric doesn't. The Oracle is based off of just Cha, while the Cleric needs to split between Wis and Cha, meaning the Oracle gets yet more bang for their buck, and has the...

Actually no again. Unless I'm building a face there's next to no good reason for a cleric to bother keeping his charisma higher than ten. Channeling is just not that good. That being said it's also something he gets for free without shoveling himself into an almost pure healy path. Heck even my savage cleric of gorum filled with rage and blood can still channel positive energy to heal. It's a perk but little else. IT's not a reason to pick the class.

Quote:
The Oracle is based off of just Cha, while the Cleric needs to split between Wis and Cha, meaning the Oracle gets yet more bang for their buck, and has the option to pick and choose which options they want, while the Cleric gets 2 at level 1, and another two between 4th - 8th, with 8th being much, much more common. No options, just they get specific new abilities.

Okay let's actually look at this then.

Clerics get twice as many new spells from their options as oracles. BUT oracles can cast them much more often as an option. The difference their is between versatility and spammability so really a question of taste here.

ORacle can select up to 6. Life mystery allows you to select nearly all options from level 1 and there's nine of them. Not bad.

Cleric gets four abilities minimum from his domains. Pretty much chosen from the start. So I get less abilities. But let's take a look at a god of healing and see that.

Sarenrae - Fire, Glory, Good, Healing, Sun.

So as a based only 5 options. Oracle wins right? Not so clearly. We're forgetting Subdomains.

Sarenarae has Agathion, Day, Heroism, Light, Restoration, Resurrection. So another 5 potential "domains".

Of course, we're not getting into inquisitions as they mostly suck for clerics anyway but they're there too.

Keep in mind these abilities run the gamut from offensive spell casting to several different kinds of healing, buffs, protective auras, and hate murdering the undead. My cleric of sarenrae with her righteous scimitar may not have the same abilities as the merciful priestess at the oasis temple or the scourging crusader who wanders the wastes burning the cancer of darkness from the Lady's ever serene gaze.

The life oracle heals good. They all heal good. With some variations of healing good here and there.

So no, not so clear. My options are locked but I had a bigger pool to start with of various themes.

Quote:
Next we compare their spells. It will turn out that the spontaneous SAD oracle both gets more spells per day, but also has practically the same versatility in their selection, because for the most part, both will have a extremely similar selection of options when it comes down to it. Many Cleric spells are just bad, and there are only a handful that are very useful. Look at a Cleric's prepped spell list and you likely to see a few spells prepped multiple times, and an absolute lack of others. For a low level cleric, Divine Favor Bless, Shield of Faith, and Prot From Evil are probably going to be used more than once for the extra slots available, because they know that they will very likely need them no matter what they come up against. Command is another one. Summon Monster. So the Oracle gets fewer spells known, but has the really big advantage of not needing to pick how many of the very few they would choose from anyway that they will need. If they Choose Bless, Divine Favor, and Prot From Evil, and turn out to be fighting nothing but animals, they can fall back on just casting Bless and Divine Favor, and not have a wasted spell, and they automatically get Cures.

This is practically the advantage all spontaneous casters get. That's undeniable.

However as to the cleric list being so objectively bad oracles will have all the best ones anyway? Not so much.

Most of the spell list isn't bad so much as situational. No one thinks they'll need Communal Endure Elements until LO it was needed. Going to the haunted mansion and nay a magic weapon among ya? Good thing that cleric can do silly things like memorize Ghostbane Dirge, MAgic Weapon, and Spiritual Weapon.

Ultiamtely the thing to understand about prep casters is the whole "prep" part. Yes there will be days when it feels like you've messed up adn you don't have the spells at the right time. Just like an oracle will feel like they've been wasting spells because they did not predict that the next level would be full of enemies they could not handle with their spells.

And remember that a cleric's spellcasting only gets better with more and more spells you allow. Versatility is his strength. This makes cleric's a highly varied and very interesting lot of people to deal wtih. ORacles have a laser sharp focus which makes them undisputed masters in their limited scopes. You'll notice this is exactly how it is for arcane spellcasters. And hoenstly exactly as it should be.

Silver Crusade

How do you feel about multi-classing? The best healer is a life oracle X/Hospitaler paladin 4. Be a human and take Fey Foundling and Selective Channeling as level 1 feats and Channel Positive Energy as level 1 revelation. Then at level 5, take Tribal Scars feat and Life Link revelation. Then go 4 levels of hospitaler paladin, then the rest of your levels in life oracle. Oh, and one of your traits should definitely be magical knack (oracle). The other one doesn't really matter.

You will have 2 pools of channel energy, you'll be ale to lay on hands, and you'll have heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency from the paladin. Put on some full plate and grab a longbow for those rounds when you don't have anything else to do. Take Quick Channel as your level 5 or 7 feat.

In 1 round, you'll heal 3 party members with Life Link. Then you can Lay on Hands yourself as a swift action, then you can channel twice, once as an oracle as a move action, and once as a paladin as a standard action. You'll be able to heal upwards of 200 hit points of damage in a single round by level 8 or 9. Oh, and get a Phylactery of Positive Energy as soon as you can. It adds 2d6 to every channel you do.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TarkXT wrote:
Open slots and Scribe Scroll basically nullify this advantage completely. Sure the oracle can cast remove poison 4 times a day. The trouble is he's stuck with remove poison until he switches out 4 levels later (or so). The trouble is the oracle is just a very very proactive prep caster who is prepping for the next level where the cleric is prepping for the next day. We'll talk more on this later.

Clerics, unlike Wizards, can not leave slots "open". They pray for their spells ONCE per day, period. And if the player is considering PFS, all scrolls must be purchased, as there is no scribing in the campaign.

Shadow Lodge

Actually Clerics can leave slots open. They do need to pray at the normal time, but just like a Wizard, can prepare their spells, leaving slots open and fill them later. It takes time, though, so it's generally only a good option for non-immediate threats.

Core Book page 220:
Spell Selection and Preparation: A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and
meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a divine spellcaster can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. . . .

@ TarkXT I disagree, in general. Sure, Cleric's get a fair amount of options to choose from, between Domains, Subdomains, Druid Domains, Inquisitions, and all, but they are all choices made at level 1, and sort of mutually exclusive. You are also assuming that with the Cleric's versatility that they will also have the metagame knowledge to actually have prepped the spells they need, which is rarely the case. For the Oracle, it's much more about weighing up front which spells will be most useful in general, and sure your stuck with them a little bit longer term, but for the most party, a Cleric is going to make a very similar selection of spells anyway. Sure, they can swap one out in the morning if they discover they are going into a cold environment tomorrow, and take Endure Elements (or Communal), but an Oracle (and a Cleric for that matter) can just buy a scroll and save their spell slot for something more useful. It's a lot less likely that they will think to prep a specific spell knowing that they are going to fight an incorporeal creature or an ooze, and even if they do, it's also not unlikely that they might give that spell up to spontaneously cast a Cure. More likely they will have some general buffs, and spells to deal with common threats than specific uncommon ones.

Don't get me wrong, I like and prefer the Cleric, as a matter of taste. I still think that the Oracle is a better class, in function, options, and just general power. Wish there where a Spontanious Cleric option, or a PF Favored Soul, personally.


I'd also add Oracle - and I think you need a secondary role in the party and if you focus your spells/feats you can also be a pretty formidable buffer. Aasimar or Human are the two best races but also a shout for the Half-Elf if your DM allows the ARG.

I have skim read a lot of the preceding text and would reiterate that a minor point to add is that the Oracle's higher Charisma also makes the save DC for the positive energy they can channel better. There is also the energy body ability which at higher levels can make you formidable against undead and also add yet more healing to your party.

Would a Cleric be more fun to play? Probably yes, and I would also ask what the other party members are, as the party balance is important if, for example you have a Bard, Buffing Wizard or a Cleric in the group then do you have to be so focussed on healing?


Healing Domain is a pretty powerful one, especially if the GM plays the monster as he should (with intelligence, focusing in one player at a time).

Empowered healing spells focus the healing where you need it more.

Also, when you see a cleric healing around 16 hps per cure light wounds spell...

Silver Crusade

I made my previous post from my iPad. I am now on my computer and I will post a full build for what I feel is the ultimate healer as soon as I get it put together.


I think if really focused at it, a cleric can average healing a little bit more hitpoint damage than the oracle of life due to the healing domain.

However, the cleric's seperate casting and channeling stat and the life oracle's revelations still give them the edge in using the healing abilities.

Depending upon you usual enemies though the hit point damage could be a very minor issue. Somtimes drains, poisons, diseases, and the like make the ability to remove the ability lowering effects much more important. As a spontaneous caster, the oracle also does a bit better with this.

---------------------------------------------------------------

On related issues:
1) The way PF works differently than the online morpgs means many people soon find the heal-bot role boring.
2) If you get too good at healing (in or out of combat) sometimes your fellow players get so they play stupid since there is no need to be clever. "It doesn't matter how much damage we take jimmy can take care of it."

example:
There was a player in our party that basically expected me to expend all my spells just to keep him fighting no matter what he did. So he stopped using his shield (use 2 hands on bastard sword), charge everything, didn't care if he generated AoO, wouldn't wait for defensive buffs, etc... He was using me as his own giant hit point battery. I couldn't even heal anyone else because he was playing so stupidly.

Because of the above:
A) I found it is very good to have something else (at least 1 or 2 things) you are good at doing in a combat. Single high casting and channeling stat means my spell DC's are decent even without any other feats or traits enhancing them. I try to have at least 1 good offensive spell of each level. Chain of perdition and pilfering hand can be loads of fun.
Also, since it is all positive energy, the oracle's healing makes them a very good blaster when fighting undead.

B) Don't let the party learn to be too dependant on your healing. I only heal in combat if it is critical to someone's survival. If I have anything else effective I could be doing, I don't try to heal them back up to full. I heal just enough to get them vertical so they can move to a safe location.


Interesting topic. Can this really even be determined though? Guess I'll have to read the whole thread and try to check in periodically.


Gonn wrote:

Wow, thank you so much for all of the responses. :)

I'm sorry that it has taken me this long to respond, work has been so crazy that I haven't had 2 seconds to myself.
I think that I will make an Oracle of Life with the blackened curse. Also, I've been looking this one up and it doesn't appear to be Aasimar only, so I might make a Human Oracle that mainly heals but also blasts a little bit (due to blackened).

Once again, thank you all for your input. :D

If healing is really going to be 'your thing', then try to take the feat Healer's Touch into consideration. Assuming your GM allows for it.

Pick up one of those thumb counters people use to keep track of your healing and hold off on the damage til you reach your target goal. The benefit is huge for the healing-focused.

Silver Crusade

Ykaterina
Human Life Oracle 8/Hospitaler Paladin 4 (lame curse)
Senses: Init +3, Normal vision
Speed: 25 ft
Traits: Magical Knack (oracle), Indomitable Faith
HP: 120 (8d8 + 4d10 + 54)
Str: 7, Dex: 16, Con: 16, Int: 10, Wis: 8, Cha: 22
Fort: 17, Reflex: 14, Will: 17 (immune to fear and charms)
***
Progression:
Oracle 1: Fey Foundling, Selective Channeling, Channel Positive Energy revelation
Oracle 2:
Oracle 3: Tribal Scars (Raptorscale), Life Link revelation
Paladin 1:
Paladin 2: Toughness
Paladin 3:
Paladin 4:
Oracle 4:
Oracle 5:
Oracle 6:
Oracle 7: Enhanced Cures revelation
Oracle 8:
***
Special abilities: Channel Positive Energy (oracle) 7/day (6d6), Channel Positive Energy (paladin) 9/day (3d6), Lay on Hands 8/day (2d6), Smite Evil 1/day
Spells as oracle: 8 orisons known, 5 1st-lvl spells known (8/day), 3 2nd-lvl spells known (8/day), 2 3rd-lvl spells known (6/day), 1 4th-lvl spell known (4/day) + mystery spells known (all cure spells, Detect Undead, Neutralize Poison, Lesser Restoration, and Restoration)
Spells as paladin: 2 1st-lvl spells per day from paladin list (prepared in advance)
***
Gear: 108,000g worth of gear and I'm really not certain what to get on this character other than a Pyhlactery of Positive Channeling (11,000g) and a Belt of Physical Might Dex/Con (10,000g). Other than that you're going to want mithral full-plate with as high of an enhancement bonus as you can get. A really nice weapon isn't particularly necessary, but if you want a +x longbow (not composite!), go for it. If this is for a home game, try and convince your GM to let you put +Cha on a slot other than headband, like maybe a cloak since you won't really need a Cloak of Resistance, and then get a +4 Cha item. If it's for PFS you'll have to decide between a +4 Cha headband and the Phylactery.


Aasimar the Dual-Cursed Life Oracle 12 (lame curse, haunted curse)
Senses: Init +3, Normal vision
Speed: 30 ft
Traits: Reactionary (+2 Init), Bully (Intimidate class skill)
Favored Class Bonus: +6 effect levels for Channel
HP: 123 (8 + 11x5 + 48 CON + 12 feat)
Str: 10, Dex: 14, Con: 16, Int: 12, Wis: 10, Cha: 25
***
Progression:
Oracle 1: Fey Foundling, Channel revelation
Oracle 2:
Oracle 3: Selective Channeling, Misfortune revelation
Oracle 4:
Oracle 5: Quicken Channel, Life Link revelation
Oracle 6:
Oracle 7: Toughness, Energy Body revelation
Oracle 8:
Oracle 9: Quicken Spell, Safe Healing revelation
Oracle 10:
Oracle 11: Extra Revelation (Life Sense), Spirit Boost revelation
Oracle 12:
***
Special abilities:
- Channel Positive Energy (oracle) 8/day (9d6)
- Misfortune (force d20 re-rolls, once per day per creature)
- Energy Body (elemental form to heal 1d6+12 per round, 12 rounds per day)
- Safe Healing (no AOOs when casting a spell that heals hitpoint damage)
***
Spells known:
9 orisons known
5 1st-lvl spells known (8/day) Shield of Faith, Command, ...
5 2nd-lvl spells known (8/day) Sound Burst, Lesser Restoration, Communal Protection From Evil, ...
4 3rd-lvl spells known (8/day) Prayer, Communal Resist Energy, Dispel Magic
3 4th-lvl spell known (7/day) Blessing of Fervor, Debilitating Portent, ...
2 5th-lvl spell known (6/day) Break Enchantment, Greater Command
1 6th-lvl spell known (4/day) Summon Monster VI
+ all Cure spells
+ mystery spells: Ill Omen, Oracle's Burden, Bestow Curse, Restoration, Breath of Life, Heal
+ curse spells: Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Levitate, Minor Image, Telekinesis
***
Gear: 108,000g worth of gear
- 16,000gp Headband of +4 CHA
- 16,000gp Belt of +4 CON
- 5,500gp Boots of Striding & Springing
- 13,200gp Mithril Breastplate +3
- 10,000gp Mithril Light Steel Shield +3
- 16,000gp Cloak of Resistance +4
- 8,000gp Right of Protection +2
- 8,000gp Amulet of Natural Armor +2
- 2,000gp Handy Haversack
- 13,500gp Miscellaneous (Pages of Spell Knowledge, Wands, Scrolls, etc.)
***
Healing Action Strategy:
- Life Link the party (healing +5 hitpoints to the entire party per round)
- move action Channel (9d6 hitpoints + 18 to self)
- standard action Channel (9d6 hitpoints + 18 to self)
- standard action Heal Spell (120 hitpoints to single target)
- standard action Cure Moderate Wounds Mass (2d8+12 to everyone, +4 to you, plus add up to 12 temporary hitpoints to group)
- standard action Energy Body form and then move action healing (1d6+12)
- Lesser Restoration for minor ability damage restoring
- Resoration for negative levels
- Break Enchantment for curses and enchantment removal
- Heal Spell for all other conditions
***
Other Action Strategy:
- Misfortune: force foe to reroll crits, force second save to friend or foe, immediate action
- Sound Burst (fort save) to stun low fort save foes
- Greater Command (will save) to control low will save foes
- Summon Monster VI for general melee combat fun
- Debilitating Portent (no save) on BBEG to force saves or do half damage
- Ill Omen (no save) to debuff any foe
- Quicken Ill Omen is fabulous for forcing two saves against critical spells
- Generic Party Buffing: Prayer, Blessing of Fervor, Shield of Faith, etc.
- Intimidate and Demoralize foes


Hmm kind of sad there not more cleric love here. Pretty sure this can't be so one sided cut and dry for oracle. I think clerics are solid.I also favor prepared casters generally.


Aeric Blackberry wrote:

Healing Domain is a pretty powerful one, especially if the GM plays the monster as he should (with intelligence, focusing in one player at a time).

Empowered healing spells focus the healing where you need it more.

Also, when you see a cleric healing around 16 hps per cure light wounds spell...

Healing domain is great early on, once you have the Heal spell it feels mostly redundant since your most powerful healing can not be empowered, still nice but not that great anymore.

I think you shouldn't play a pure healer though, if you only have healing spells you will be mostly healing to compensate for your inefficiency to support the party. A boost to AC, bonus to hit or extra attack will usually end up being a better deal than a heal spell of similar level.


Conundrum wrote:
Hmm kind of sad there not more cleric love here. Pretty sure this can't be so one sided cut and dry for oracle. I think clerics are solid.I also favor prepared casters generally.

It pretty much is unfortuantely. ORacles are specialists. They pick a theme and a thing to do and they're good at it. While I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion they're more versatile I can't and won't deny that there are things oracles can do better when they optimize in that direction.

I think I'll work on a similar cleric build to our level 12 oracle frined up there jsut for a base comparison.


So better healer but not all around. Cleric then s by the nature of what you're saying going to be better in other areas if oracle beats him at what oracle is focused in.


Conundrum wrote:
Hmm kind of sad there not more cleric love here. Pretty sure this can't be so one sided cut and dry for oracle. I think clerics are solid.I also favor prepared casters generally.

Clerics are dominated on hitpoint-healing.

This is due to having only Channel as an alternate means to healing hitpoints besides spells.

Clerics dominate on other-than-hitpoint-healing. No one can heal the entire debilitating portfolio as early or thoroughly as clerics. Granted, most critical healing is the heal-you-tomorrow variety, but that's better than waiting a couple of levels.


Yeah my desna cleric with lib and travel is great for removing all kinds of stains other than just blood. Plus she's fast and is the only cleric with access to teleport as of core.


Rory wrote:
Conundrum wrote:


Clerics dominate on other-than-hitpoint-healing. No one can heal the entire debilitating portfolio as early or thoroughly as clerics. Granted, most critical healing is the heal-you-tomorrow variety, but that's better than waiting a couple of levels.

Only if you don't leave slots open and refuse to make scrolls of those things that might come in hadny later.


I guess that's a consideration. There more to being a healer than hit points(cure wounds/channel) and clerics are geared for the widest range of repairs.


Can't let silly life oracles walk all over clerics without at least offering something. The idea that any full caster is completely outclassed by their opposite seems absurd. Do folks get away with claiming sorcerer as better hands down than wizard?


Many people make that exact claim, especially now after the introduction of pages and rings of spell knowledge (which also benefit oracles, BTW).


Rory wrote:
Conundrum wrote:
Hmm kind of sad there not more cleric love here. Pretty sure this can't be so one sided cut and dry for oracle. I think clerics are solid.I also favor prepared casters generally.

Clerics are dominated on hitpoint-healing.

This is due to having only Channel as an alternate means to healing hitpoints besides spells.

Clerics dominate on other-than-hitpoint-healing. No one can heal the entire debilitating portfolio as early or thoroughly as clerics. Granted, most critical healing is the heal-you-tomorrow variety, but that's better than waiting a couple of levels.

I would agree with this. The cleric can come close with quickened spell + quick channel + a regular cure, but the oracle will be able to quicken higher level cures due to their revelations, and the oracle can keep the healing flowing longer before they run out of spells.

The cleric can memorize shield other to allow them to spread damage around to make their channels more effective.

The problem is that the oracle will suffer in the preventative department. Going into a volcano and need endure elements and communal fire resist? Cleric can do it. Just like a Wizard, and cleric with a little divination can prepare the right spells for a situation. It is much better to prevent 80-90 points of fire damage with a single spell than to have to heal it with 3 spells.

Sovereign Court

You should look at two things. Which one you think will be the most fun to play, and which one allows you to do more then just being dead weight until someone needs a band-aid.

That's my advice.


Pew pew your pages of spell knowledge! Have fun spending all that dough cancelling one of your class selling points doing so. Doubt if you are anywhere within orbit of wbl you still don't touch what a wizard has in his spellbook. But I digress again falling into x vs y trap again.


Remember, clerics get every spell one level sooner. They can cast Heal at level 11 instead of level 12. Oracles need advantages to balance that out.


Charender wrote:

The problem is that the oracle will suffer in the preventative department.

This is part of the reason why I wrote up the Dual-Cursed oracle version.

The ability to force a foe to reroll a critical hit, a key save, or to force a fellow party member to reroll a failed save or skill check is nothing short of amazing. Further, Ill Omen is a gargantuan debuff spell all up thru the levels for a level 1 spell.

My oracle might have to use scrolls to bypass your volcano example, but it can seriously mess with the boss in the bowels of that mountain (and that's without knowing what it is).

Morgen wrote:

You should look at two things. Which one you think will be the most fun to play, and which one allows you to do more then just being dead weight until someone needs a band-aid.

Indeed. Heed this advice.

Anyone who makes a healer that can contribute nothing but healing is on the road for a boring long term game. Healing can be very powerful as a character theme, but always, always pick something else to go with it. This can be as simple as picking a few spells for control or damage, or as involved as pouring resources into getting/maintaing a decent melee attack. Just plan to give yourself something to do.


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Matthew Downie wrote:
Remember, clerics get every spell one level sooner. They can cast Heal at level 11 instead of level 12. Oracles need advantages to balance that out.

Almost every spell; Oracle of Life gets Mass Heal as an 8th level spell instead of a 9th level spell. =D


I think one of this issues with clerics is that in Pathfinder, the classes are defined by their class features, and that clerics have less. Oracles can be way more customizable because they get more class features and you can select the nature of more of the class features. Pathfinder did add more class features to the cleric with the second domain powers, but it still falls a little short.

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