i had a few crazy ideas
20 point longbow fighter
20 point knife throwing myrmidarch
but for the myrmidarch
i need the following item approved with a worthy price
a holster that produces and endless supply of throwing daggers, enchanted to provide an endless supply of +1 agile daggers that are only +1 and agile for a round apiece and disappear if not used. drawable as part of a thrown attack akin to attacking with a bow.
i imagine the holster itself would be worth 2,000 maybe 4,000 gold, before enchantments.
the idea is akin to the bracer of endless javelins or a bottomless quiver.
otherwise, the throwing knives would be too expensive otherwise.
***animal companion stats stuff***
For the Tiger I re-ran some numbers, with some druid buffs, I get 95.55 DPR from a power attack charge. Buffs are animal growth(+8str,+4con,-2dex,huge size) and strongjaw(nat attacks do damage 2 sizes larger) (both 1min/level). To be fair, those are some fairly significant uses of the druids daily spells. (Base of 2 fifth and 3 fourth levels daily). I don't think they are more significant than the monk spending ki however.
Follow up rounds after the charge (without rake) clock in at 44.46. I have no idea how to calculate the chances of a grab/grapple and then the extra rakes round to round however.
Minor edit: Switch his ghost touch AoMF to just a normal +1. Or keep ghost touch and cast the 5 greater magic fangs (which will last most of the day).
@Rynjin - Quick and dirty, so check the math
Reg
.65 X 9 + .25 * .65* 9 (2 times)
.40 X 9 + .25 * .65* 9 (2 times)Which was around 29.
Power attack I came up with 34 (more damage/lower hit)
For my personal "viability" goalpost (1/4 of HP for equal CR creature) you are on target. For Wraith's, you are very low.
Ah. Obviously I'm as good at building TWFers as I am building archers.
I.E. not very. ;)
I could probably tweak it to make it better which I'll do later.
Though with Favored Enemy it's probably a good chunk higher.
i suck at building period.
i can get down a lot of the basic stuff like essential feats. but i fall for a lot of traps.
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My initial position was that monks were viable but required significant system mastery to use effectively. I stand by that position.If monks were effective, they wouldn't need significant system mastery. Splats don't fix the class. Archetypes don't fix the class. The fact you need this sort of thing only helps prove the point. They help the class, don't get me wrong, but it didn't mean there was nothing wrong with the class. It requires someone going out of their way to find something to fix it.
We've been running numbers without archetypes using unarmed attacks.
As for systems mastery: failure to effectively use what is available does not mean the class is ineffective. I can bring a ineffectively designed character of any class.
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i suck at building period.
i can get down a lot of the basic stuff like essential feats. but i fall for a lot of traps.
Having fun is more important.
I would never actually play such a highly min/maxed character.
My initial position was that monks were viable but required significant system mastery to use effectively. I stand by that position.Why must it remain that way?
Why shouldn't it be easier for people to intuitively build the monk that lives up to what they envision?
Some people enjoy complicated class designed. Others, not so much.
Pathfinder has both, which I consider to a good thing.
Archetypes can effectively rewrite a class and are paizo's only option to "fix" a class.
If you want something to be fixed, don't complain about the solution.
***animal companion stats stuff***For the Tiger I re-ran some numbers, with some druid buffs, I get 95.55 DPR from a power attack charge. Buffs are animal growth(+8str,+4con,-2dex,huge size) and strongjaw(nat attacks do damage 2 sizes larger) (both 1min/level). To be fair, those are some fairly significant uses of the druids daily spells. (Base of 2 fifth and 3 fourth levels daily). I don't think they are more significant than the monk spending ki however.
Follow up rounds after the charge (without rake) clock in at 44.46. I have no idea how to calculate the chances of a grab/grapple and then the extra rakes round to round however.
You would just have to compare the grapple modifier to the targets CMD.
Mutliply the percentage for success by the bite or claw damage on the following round.
Take the percentage for the grapple success and multiply it by the percentage to rake the grappled target, along with average damage.
I think you can do more damage with a full attack, but holding someone in place for the party is not a bad idea, and animal growth is a massive bump in DPR. I don't know if casting all of those spells is better than the druid just attacking on his own however.
Some may be possible to reasonably cast in advance if they are 10 min/level or more in duration.
Wtf...? I leave for a couple hours and the thread gets a bazillion posts!
I guess that's to be expected from a Monk thread...
You would just have to compare the grapple modifier to the targets CMD.
Mutliply the percentage for success by the bite or claw damage on the following round.
Take the percentage for the grapple success and multiply it by the percentage to rake the grappled target, along with average damage.
I think you can do more damage with a full attack, but holding someone in place for the party is not a bad idea, and animal growth is a massive bump in DPR. I don't know if casting all of those spells is better than the druid just attacking on his own however.
Some may be possible to reasonably cast in advance if they are 10 min/level or more in duration.
I think the full-attack vs. grapple and rake are a wash in a 1v1. Grapple applies to both you and target, so both can hit easier. If you grabbed with the bite, the damage is all the same (bite & 2 rake for grapple vs bite & 2 claw for full attack). If you grabbed with a claw, it is a whopping 2 points lower.
I do agree in a team fight, grapple has more potential, since you are now making it even easier for the other martials to hit the grappled baddie.
I'm sure the druid would add quite a bit of his own damage if he so wanted, I am trying to keep it to animal companion & a couple buffs, much like many of the monks are doing through quiggong or potions. (Benefit of using the animal companion is having the druid handy to cast them.)
i never was the character builder some of my buddies were.
Seth and Javier have me beat, though i have influenced some of their builds, and they, some of mine
Andy's barbarian was effective, because when Weekly William built it so squishy, Seth and I 8 levels later, with DM permission, collaberated and fixed it, making a far nastier melee menace, for 8 levels, it kept dropping after one rounding a handful of foes.
and when Bruce the Ronin Pirate Berserker was reconstructed without Will's traps. it became a lot more effective.
i pointed out the obvious rage powers, and Seth consulted Andy.
Superstitious wasn't chosen because he wanted to be capable of being healed.
but at 14th level, he could pounce for 3 attacks with his katana and 1 bite before haste and inspire courage. had a DR 0f 9/- 18 against nonlethal fire resistance of 4, class leveled foes were dropping in one round during the final fight when he pounced them. plus he crit on a 15-20 for double damage. other than his large uberkatana a 14th level character shouldn't have that he looted off a 16th level ninja foe, he didn't have a lot.
Human (Dual Talent) Ranger 10
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +9
AC: 24 (+9 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Deflection, +1 Shield)
Str: 22
Dex: 17
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 7
Traits: Reactionary, Indomitable Faith (Thanks Bearded Ben!)
Feats:
1.) Two-Weapon Fighting
2.) Double Slice
3.) Endurance
3.) Weapon Focus: Kukri
5.) Iron Will
6.) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7.) Two-Weapon Defense
9.) Improved Critical (Kukri)
10.) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Melee: Kukri +20/+15 (1d4+9, 15-20/x2)
OR
Kukri +18/+18/+13/+13/+8 (1d4+9, 15-20/x2)
Skills:
Acrobatics +15
Climb +10
Handle Animal +9
Kn. Nature +13
Perception +15
Sense Motive +12
Survival +15 (+20 to follow tracks)
Swim +10
Special Abilities: Favored Enemy (+6/+4/+2), Track, Evasion, Favored Terrain (+4/+2), Hunter's Bond, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker
Equipment: Belt of Giant Strength +2 (4k), +3 Mithral Breastplate (13k), 2 +3 Kukris (36k total), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4k), +1 Ring of Protection, Headband of Inspired Wisdom (4k), 1k in miscellaneous equipment
Rearranged and changed some stuff. Don't really NEED more than a 15 Dex except for AC reasons.
Let's try and run the numbers on it now, tell me if I'm doing this wrong.
Two-Weapon Fighting DPR:
H 1st set Chance to hit (AC 24): 75%
H 2nd set chance to hit: 54%
H 3rd set chance to hit: 33%
D Average Damage: 11.5
S Precision damage: N/A
T Chance to threat: 25%
C Crit damage multiplier: x2
hd+tchd
12.94 x2
9.32 x2
5.7
So, 50.22 DPR normally? That's a pretty big hike up from before if this math is correct.
Now, with the strongest favored enemy, that's +6 to-hit/damage on every swing, so let's see there.
So.
Two-Weapon Fighting with Favored Enemy DPR:
Kukri +24/+24/+19/+19/+14 (1d4+15, 15-20/x2)
H 1st set Chance to hit (AC 24): 100%
H 2nd set chance to hit: 79%
H 3rd set chance to hit: 58%
D Average Damage: 17.5
S Precision damage: N/A
T Chance to threat: 25%
C Crit damage multiplier: x2
hd+tchd
26.25 x2
20.74 x2
15.23
So a total of 109.21 DPR?
Geez. Either I dun goofed somewhere or the extra hit and the Str focus instead of Dex does a LOT more than I thought.
That One That Someone Mentioned That Raises Will Saves That I Don't Know The Name Of
Indomitable Faith is one +1 Will trait, there may be others
Let me try... I'm not sure how good this guy actually is. I don't like TWF.
This is a TWF Half-Orc.
Male Half-Orc Ranger 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +2; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 21, touch 13, flat-footed 19 (+8 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 89 (10d10+30)
Fort +14 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +13, Will +10
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Cestus +15/+10 (1d4+7/17-20/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Cestus +16/+11 (1d4+8/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +13/+8 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (evil outsiders +2, monstrous humanoids +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 9):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Lead Blades, Aspect of the Falcon, Longstrider
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +16; CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Double Slice, Endurance, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Cestus), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack -3/+6, Two-weapon Fighting, Two-weapon Rend
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +12 (+8 jump), Bluff -2 (+0 vs. monstrous humanoids, +0 vs. evil outsiders, +4 vs. undead), Climb +10, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +13 (+15 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead), Perception +15 (+17 vs. monstrous humanoids, +17 vs. evil outsiders, +21 vs. undead, +19 while in forest terrain, +17 while in urban terrain), Sense Motive +2 (+4 vs. monstrous humanoids, +4 vs. evil outsiders, +8 vs. undead), Stealth +17 (+21 while in forest terrain, +19 while in urban terrain), Survival +13 (+15 vs. monstrous humanoids, +15 vs. evil outsiders, +19 vs. undead, +17 while in forest terrain, +15 while in urban terrain, +18 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc
SQ combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrains (forest +4, urban +2), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Pearl of power (1st level) (1/day), Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Breastplate, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), +1 Silversheen Cestus, +2 Silversheen Cestus, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ring of protection +1, Masterwork tool (Stealth), 340 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Two-weapon Rend You deal an additional 1d10+(STR*1.5) if you hit with both of your weapons.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
This guys uses 2 cestus to Fight... He can use Longstrider to boost his movement speed by 10ft for 9h. That's not the whole day, but it's pretty damn close. Or he can use Lead Blades if he knows a fight is coming, or Aspect of the falcon if he thinks it's time for ranged combat. Another useful spell is Resist Energy.
His 1st level Pearl of Power gives him an extra casting of any of those spells.
He can also use Barkskin twice a day, which raises his AC to 24. Each casting lasts 90min, for a total of 3h of AC 24. Not bad, may be enough to last a whole dungeon, or at least the last few encounters. It doesn't stack with Amulet of Natural Armor, though, which is why I didn't buy one... If he gets a better Headband of Wisdom or goes up a level, he gets to use Instant Enemy. That's a game changer right there.
Oh, and he can use the ever-present wands of CLW without need to make UMD checks. Awesome.
His DPR against AC 24 is 35.07 (or 42.33 with Power Attack). Against undead creatures, his main Favored Enemy, his DPR rises to an amazing 93.98.
I wasn't sure about how to account for Two-Weapon Rend, so I calculated his DPR once more, this time assuming he benefits from the feat. If that's the case, his numbers rise to 47.25, 51.45 (Power Attack) and 109.22(PA + FE).
By Odin's beard! TWF is freaking expensive!
-----------------------------------
And this is an unarmed variant of the previous build:
Male Half-Orc Ranger 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human, orc)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +21
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 24, touch 13, flat-footed 21 (+8 armor, +3 shield, +3 Dex)
hp 79 (10d10+20)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +14, Will +10
Defensive Abilities evasion
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee Heavy Shield Bash +19/+14 (1d4+18/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +22/+17 (1d3+21/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Composite longbow (Str +6) +20/+15 (1d8+13/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (evil outsiders +2, monstrous humanoids +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 9):
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Lead Blades, Aspect of the Falcon, Longstrider
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Base Atk +10; CMB +22 (+24 Grappling); CMD 29
Feats Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round), Double Slice, Endurance, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack -3/+6, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Indomitable Faith, Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +13, Bluff +5 (+7 vs. monstrous humanoids, +7 vs. evil outsiders, +11 vs. undead), Climb +10, Intimidate +14, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +19 (+21 vs. monstrous humanoids, +21 vs. evil outsiders, +25 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +19 (+21 vs. monstrous humanoids, +21 vs. evil outsiders, +25 vs. undead), Perception +21 (+23 vs. monstrous humanoids, +23 vs. evil outsiders, +27 vs. undead, +25 while in forest terrain, +23 while in urban terrain), Sense Motive +8 (+10 vs. monstrous humanoids, +10 vs. evil outsiders, +14 vs. undead), Stealth +18 (+22 while in forest terrain, +20 while in urban terrain), Survival +19 (+21 vs. monstrous humanoids, +21 vs. evil outsiders, +25 vs. undead, +23 while in forest terrain, +21 while in urban terrain, +24 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion); Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Common, Orc
SQ brawling, combat styles (two-weapon combat), favored terrains (forest +4, urban +2), hunter's bonds (companions), swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Combat Gear Wand of cure light wounds; Other Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Breastplate, +1 Heavy wooden shield, +1 Composite longbow (Str +6), Amulet of mighty fists +1, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Cloak of resistance +3, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Masterwork tool (Stealth), 843 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders).
Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Monstrous Humanoids).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Urban +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Urban).
Hunting Companions (2 rounds) (Ex) Grant half favored enemy bonus to allies in 30' as move action.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wild Empathy +9 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
I never tried building an unarmed pure Ranger. So who knows how viable this guy is... It seems okay to me. Not impressive, but decent enough.
His DPR against AC 24 is 34.02 (not as bad as I thought, actually... Thank you, Brawling armor!)... The surprising part is that when Power Attacking is DPR is actually slightly higher than his cestus-wielding counterpart: 44,55. Who knew, huh? Against FE he loses this edge, though... :( His DPR is "only" 83,70.
This version doesn't have Two-Weapon Rend, so I don't need to calculate everything twice! Yaaaay!
It's a shame he doesn't qualify for Dragon Ferocity, though... -.-'.
He could possibly save some money by selling his AoMF and just relying on his Brawling armor and Magic Fang spell. Not a bad idea at higher levels, when he gets GMF and it lasts for hours at a time.
And his AC is considerably higher than Cestus-guy because he gets to use a magic shield instead of a Ring of Protection.
None of these guys has an animal companion for simplicity's sake. Should they decide to have one, Cestus guy would have to use 2 +1 Cestus in order to buy gear for his pet. Unarmed guy would simply give his AoMF to his pet. Another possibility is investing in Spellcraft and getting the Craft Wondrous Item feat.
If he were Human instead of Half-Orc he would have both the feat and the extra skill points to do that and still keep his build mostly intact, the only losses being Darkvision and a -1 reduction to all his saves (ouch!)
Ah, thanks Gnomersy. So that drops his DPR down to 106.6 or so with FE then.
Still, pretty nice I think.
Heh... I just realized... I used WBL for 9th level instead of 10th. That means each of my Ranger builds has 16000gp remaining...
Oh, well, c'est la vie...
I might update the builds tomorrow.
Nicos, I'm a bit confused by your build... What are your Fighter's attack/damage bonuses while TWFing?
Why does the silversheen kukri have a smaller to-hit bonus?
Why does the silversheen kukri have a smaller to-hit bonus?Only in the iterative. The duelist vembraces give a +2 to one attack to the off hand weapon once per turn, in this case the cold iron kukri.
Ah, I see... So your attack routine with PA is +19/+19/+16/+14.
IIRC, PA only adds half the damage bonus to offhand weapons, though...
So your main hand deals 1d4+19, but the secondary only deals 1d4+16, I believe.
Here is his DPR agains AC 24.
TWF DPR: 81,84.
TWF+PA DPR: 90,56.
That's rather high.
seems like twf build do a lot of dmg once they have the feats.
Well, they do spend 2~4 feats and twice as much gold as a 2-handed warrior... So dealing lots of damage is the least they could do!
TWF does fantastic damage if you can get a full attack in. If not, then you're rather worse off than a THF. You also get less of a bonus from haste and similar effects. DR also hits you harder than a THF if you can't penetrate it, and they're (somewhat, at least) more likely to be able to given they're only buying one weapon instead of two.
It has its trade-offs, but it has great potential.
@Nicos:
There is no restriction per se, but personally I like to keep to builds that are Pathfinder Society legal. In that regard the cracked ioun stones for cheap +attack should not be present, otherwise good job.
Just an update for my Dex Build, the maths is slightly wrong, so the DPR drops by about 3 on all levels:
str 10
dex 24 = 16 + 2 racial + 2 levels + 4 item
con 12
int 10
wis 18 = 16 + 2 item
cha 8
traits - bullied (+1 trait bonus to unarmed attacks for AOOs), mikari rebel (+1 trait bonus to damage for unarmed strikes)
level 1 - weapon finesse, dodge (bonus), toughness (human)
level 2 - deflect arrows (bonus)
level 3 - mantis style
level 4 -
level 5 - weapon focus (unarmed)
level 6 - combat reflexes (bonus)
level 7 - mantis wisdom
level 8 -
level 9 - hamatulatsu
level 10 - medusa's wrath (bonus)
equipment: dex +4 (16000), amulet +2 (16000), monk robe (13000), deliquescent gloves (8000), ring +1 (2000), wis +2 (4000), potions of mage armor (2000)
HP 83
AC 30 touch 26 flat 22
Fort 8 Ref 14 Will 11
unarmed flurry +2 amulet 18/18/13/13 2d6+3+1d6(acid)
unarmed flurry +1 agile amulet 17/17/12/12 2d6+10+1d6(acid)
basic: 13.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) = 35.44
ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) = 46.07
haste ki attack: 13.5 * 1.05 * (4 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) = 60.95
basic: 0.15 * (13.5 * 1.05 * (0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.85 * (13.5 * 1.05 + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (3 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7)) = 45.59
ki attack: 0.15 * (13.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.85 * (13.5 * 1.05 + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (4 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7)) = 58.87
haste ki attack: 0.1 * (13.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.9 * (13.5 * 1.05 + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (3 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.55) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.75)) = 74.29
basic: 0.15 * (13.5 * 1.05 * (0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.85 * (13.5 * 1.05 + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (3 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7)) = 53.42
ki attack: 0.15 * (13.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.85 * (13.5 * 1.05 + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (2 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (4 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.7)) = 65.38
haste ki attack: 0.1 * (13.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.9 * (13.5 * 1.05 + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (3 * 0.8 + 2 * 0.5) + 13.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.75)) = 80.74
basic: 20.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) = 49.51
ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) = 64.58
haste ki attack: 20.5 * 1.05 * (4 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) = 86.1
basic: 0.2 * (20.5 * 1.05 * (0.7 + 2 * 0.45)) + 0.8 * (20.5 * 1.05 + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (3 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65)) = 66.12
ki attack: 0.2 * (20.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45)) + 0.8 * (20.5 * 1.05 + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (4 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65)) = 82.40
haste ki attack: 0.15 * (20.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.85 * (20.5 * 1.05 + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.65 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.35 * (5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.75)) = 107.46
basic: 0.2 * (20.5 * 1.05 * (0.7 + 2 * 0.45)) + 0.8 * (20.5 * 1.05 + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (3 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65)) = 74.39
ki attack: 0.2 * (20.5 * 1.05 * (2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45)) + 0.8 * (20.5 * 1.05 + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (2 * 0.7 + 2 * 0.45) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (4 * 0.9 + 2 * 0.65)) = 91.35
haste ki attack: 0.15 * (20.5 * 1.05 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5)) + 0.85 * (20.5 * 1.05 + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.45 * (3 * 0.75 + 2 * 0.5) + 20.5 * 1.05 * 0.55 * (5 * 0.95 + 2 * 0.75)) = 118.44
As a side note, if you allow cracked ioun stones (a la Nicos' TWF fighter), then the DPR increases by roughly +3 for the +2 amulet, and +4 for the +1 agile amulet.
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@Nicos:
There is no restriction per se, but personally I like to keep to builds that are Pathfinder Society legal. In that regard the cracked ioun stones for cheap +attack should not be present, otherwise good job.
Cracked ioun stones are PFS legal, they just don't have resonant powers when placed in a wayfinder.
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Ah. Obviously I'm as good at building TWFers as I am building archers.I.E. not very. ;)
Here is the thing. I don't think your build is "bad" I think your build can remove 1/4 of the hit points of an equal CR expectation enemy, meaning 4 of your build on average take out an equal CR enemy in a single round.
Which I wouldn't describe in as "Bad"
The problem as I see it is we often set the bar at the "ideal" and give the benefit of the doubt for best case scenario for some classes.
Your ranger is a high skill, versatile (ranged and TWF), party member. That build would be very able to survive and welcome in most parties I've played in.
We've now shown you can have a high damage monk, a high AC monk, a monk that can do both, and even more powerful monks using archetypes.
We've literally produced the builds that show these various possibilities.
But the same people who produce no evidence are still saying "No you didn't, because I believe "x" is true, so "x" is true.
I came into this thread believing that the AoMF change was meh, and unarmed monks are still really weak.
I've been pleasantly surprised, and looking at the boots of speed working with ki (which prior to the FAQ was in doubt) and applying the Agile weapon property, they are actually potentially pretty bad ass offensively in the right build.
This is why we test our beliefs.
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My initial position was that monks were viable but required significant system mastery to use effectively. I stand by that position.Why must it remain that way?
Why shouldn't it be easier for people to intuitively build the monk that lives up to what they envision?
If you move the entry level bar up, you then also move the mastery bar up.
Creep ensues.
System mastery rewards people who put more effort in. That isn't a bad thing.
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TWF does fantastic damage if you can get a full attack in. If not, then you're rather worse off than a THF. You also get less of a bonus from haste and similar effects. DR also hits you harder than a THF if you can't penetrate it, and they're (somewhat, at least) more likely to be able to given they're only buying one weapon instead of two.
It has its trade-offs, but it has great potential.
Agree 100%. The THF is a better mobile fighter. The TWF can't move and melee nearly as well, but the bonuses to damage help more, as they occur more often in the attack cycle, and the higher Dex makes them likely better switch hitters.
I'm surprised a monk Dex build is so effective. It makes the monk switch hitter seem more viable than I had thought (beyond taking scorching ray from Quiggong...)
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The Dragon Style Chain is pretty sweet. Let me swap out spring attack and Combat maneuver Defense in the earlier build for Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity.
So I lose spring attack, but I gain the ability to charge through allies and difficult terrain, in addition to +6.5 damage per attack (3 from dragon, 3.5 from elemental fist). And as always, please check my math.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pswo&page=11?Why-do-people-keep-saying-mon ks-are-underpowered#531
Original Build. All attack numbers are the same, damage goes up by 3 (1/2 strength).
Regular flurry: 49.68
Ki Flurry: 64.8
Ki/Haste/Flurry: 79.9 (10 times a day)
I also have been doing power attack wrong, so ignore those numbers on previous builds (I told you to check my math...) This is without power attack, and actually looking at it, power attack isn't that great and I might swap that out as well...in fact, take out power attack, take Dragon Style at 5, dragon ferocity at 9 and I get to keep spring attack :)
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My initial position was that monks were viable but required significant system mastery to use effectively. I stand by that position.Why must it remain that way?
Why shouldn't it be easier for people to intuitively build the monk that lives up to what they envision?
If you move the entry level bar up, you then also move the mastery bar up.
Creep ensues.
System mastery rewards people who put more effort in. That isn't a bad thing.
Just giving up on playing a monk that feels right is not effort.
I did put effort into my monk. It was still an exercise in misery.
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The Dragon Style Chain is pretty sweet. Let me swap out spring attack and Combat maneuver Defense in the earlier build for Dragon Style, Dragon Ferocity.
So I lose spring attack, but I gain the ability to charge through allies and difficult terrain, in addition to +6.5 damage per attack (3 from dragon, 3.5 from elemental fist). And as always, please check my math.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pswo&page=11?Why-do-people-keep-saying-mon ks-are-underpowered#531
Original Build. All attack numbers are the same, damage goes up by 3 (1/2 strength).
Regular flurry: 49.68
Ki Flurry: 64.8
Ki/Haste/Flurry: 79.9 (10 times a day)I also have been doing power attack wrong, so ignore those numbers on previous builds (I told you to check my math...) This is without power attack, and actually looking at it, power attack isn't that great and I might swap that out as well...in fact, take out power attack, take Dragon Style at 5, dragon ferocity at 9 and I get to keep spring attack :)
I assume haste is from boots of speed?
Generally I don't buy them since haste is one of the best buffs relative to spell level as it hits the whole party more or less and lasts a decent amount at the level you get it and as a result it's not unreasonable to expect an arcane caster to have picked it which would be more cost effective(not to mention you could just all pitch in a share of money for a pearl of power of the right spell level if the caster was really a butt about it and still come out ahead.)
But if we start to include haste in general you'll see that it heavily favors the conventional classes running TH builds off the top of my head it added around 39-40 dpr to the barbarian I posted earlier. Which probably makes me an idiot for not buying boots of speed I guess XD.
Yes, sorry, boots of speed swapping +2 off the bracers and the cloak of resistance. AC down to 22, 26 with barkskin.
Good catch, thanks!
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I just realized I forgot to add the +1 to attack from haste.
New DPR is 86.4...so close to Wraith's 88, and I still have spring attack :)
Edit: Throwing that +1 into the power attack formula, I think I made it!
My numbers are PA/Ki/Haste 89.28 10 times a day, AC 22 (26 with barkskin)
Base is +18 (8 Base +6 str, +2 AoMF, +1 WF, +1 haste) 2d6 (7) +6 Str, + 3 Dragon, +2 AoMF 18. 4 of this level attack (2 Flurry, 1 ki, 1 boots) and 2 more at +13
PA is -3 to all the attacks, but +6 to damage to take me to 24.
Throw in Improved crit (.05 becomes .10)
Unless I am missing something, I hit the goal with a base monk.
I went through this thread too. I haven't seen a "good" monk. Any similarly opt fighter still does a better job in most situations and the fighter isn't all that great either.You also have not defined good.
good
/go͝od/Adjective
To be desired or approved of.
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I went through this thread too. I haven't seen a "good" monk. Any similarly opt fighter still does a better job in most situations and the fighter isn't all that great either.You also have not defined good.good
/go͝od/
Adjective
To be desired or approved of.
RDRR
Wraith set a goal post. You haven't.