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Tell her she has to put the game away while playing; she can either play the game, or her computer games, it's up to her. Then she can choose which she'd prefer.
Then again, I'm blunt. That's not always a good thing. :/
Playing on your phone is one thing, but playing Minecraft on your laptop at the gaming table is a little ridiculous.
I agree with Tangent - I don't understand why you didn't just tell her to put the laptop away the first time she whipped it out.
In many ways, GM'ing is exactly like being a manager at a workplace - if you let someone get away with certain behaviors the first time, its harder to get tough on it later. It is rude of her to play on her laptop, but you should have asked her to put it away the very first time it happened.
Since you seem to have never said anything to her about it before, she probably doesn't even think you're bothered by it - and that's not completely her fault.
This sounds more like a GM problem than a player problem.
It may be that she's bored or frustrated with the game, and doesn't know how to express herself with words, and so turns to her laptop in an immature attempt to display her boredom/frustration.
Or she just might not know any better, if you never asked her not to multitask while playing, as Tirisfal says.
Either way, it's on you as the DM to step up -- I'd start by asking her why she multitasks during the game, and whether she's enjoying herself. You can decide whether to boot her after you get an answer.
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Approach her alone (You are the GM, right?) and present the issue to her just like you did to us - there's nothing personal about it, but she is not really being part of the game. Ask her if she understands why you feel that way, and if she does ask her why is she not being active in the game. Is she not having any fun? does she maybe have an issue with something more specific? is she maybe just, I don't know, shy or something like that? I know my own girlfriend doesn't play roleplaying around the table (only internet games) because she gets nervous roleplaying even when it's only a bunch of friends around - even though she did have the decency to just outright say it to us instead of confusing us all like the girl your'e describing is doing.
Anyway, if during the conversation it turns out that from whatever reason the girl is not going to change her behavior, just tell her that there are other people who want in this game, and I'm sure she'll agree it makes more sense for one of them to join.
So far there's no trouble. Trouble will start only if she refuses to leave while still refusing to get more involved in the game.
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Drake, how long has she been playing with your group? Did she play with any groups before this? What is your group's general play style? Did you guys play any other APs and was she involved at that point?
Is it possibly just the boring bookkeping bits of Kingmaker that really turn her off to the current game?
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I will agree that it is time for you (or the GM) to find out the reason she is not participating in the game. I had a similar situation that came to a head during one game. The individual claimed he could multitask but never knew what had happened when it came to his turn. I finally asked him to leave the computer at home next game. He packed up and left. He hasn't been heard from since.
The point is, she cannot explain herself if you don't talk to her. You getting frustrated isn't worth it.
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So right now my group is having an issue with a player who is never really interacting or focused in playing Pathfinder. Right now she is part of our Kingmaker adventure as a ranger who from what I gather is the last member of the noble house behind Choral or something like that.
Anyway she put a lot of effort into making this character's backstory but does NOTHING in the game. She is always on her laptop playing Minecraft or Tumblr, so she never tries to roleplayer her character unless spoke to and in combat she hardly knows what she's fighting, where her character is or what to even do. Also I NEVER see her with her sheet out and I wonder how she knows her stats completely by heart.
The issue is that she is taking up a spot in the game really. All she is useful is combat, but that matters if she knows what she's doing or if she even hits since she's horrible with rolls. We have other people interested in joining and we want to find some way to have her leave, but we don't know how to break it to her that we want her to leave this game.
If anyone has advice on this please share since the whole group is still debating what to do.
How weird. I knew a player that was exactly like this, and they also played a ranger. Unfortunately, this wasn't the only player that was like this.
Now I've been pulled up and chastised for criticising this before, but tech and other games can really get in the way of a game (of D&D or PF) from being carried off successfully. It doesn't matter how much effort or time, or the depth of performance and charm a dm puts in, if people are on their phones or playing something on their laptop, it won't matter, they are not there, not fully, barely even half there. It needs to stop.
So stop it.
Some use fruit bowls for phones, some restrict laptop usage to you may consult rules or use it to look up your sheet, and that is it. All good plans.
The players must understand that being disrespectful during the game is not on, and that the game, this game, not that other game you are playing on your phone or laptop, requires their attention.
Then if they still don't get it, boot them. Then kill their characters. Or, switch that around.
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you need to be straightforward with her. Honest. otherwise this sneaking around will just lead to greater drama, as she finds her own way over to the game, just to blow up at you all. She needs to know where she stands, you need to be sure you speak for everyone, and you need to be as concise as possible to remove any doubt. She obviously doesn't want to play, though she may think she does. It doesn't sound like you want her to play, so like it was said before, man up and speak directly. give reasons, don't be wishywashy. If you're going to give her a chance, then state the terms of her remaining in the group. If she's getting the boot, say so and leave no doubt there's no going back.
You cannot believe the level of resentment that can build among friends/ gaming groups once a schism forms. I've seen relatively nice people get to the point of lunging across the table yelling at another because of this situation. I've seen groups fall into nothing but mocking and insulting a player because they couldn't say they didn't want him there.
Like a gangrenous limb, it's just better to cut clean before the infection spreads.
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We are thinking of just silently dropping her since we normally invite her and someone goes pick her up. I think we should just go up and give her an ultimatum to either cut the laptop use, leave the game or just leave the group.
Sounds smart.
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Talk to her. Say what you said in the first post--both including "hey, you put a lot of work in your backstory" but also "you are doing nothing to participate except when you are forced to." Ask her if she is bored--use those exact words--and if there is anything you could do to help draw her in.
Listen to her suggestions. Act on them if you can, and if not, explain the reasonable reason why you cannot. And if this gives her the opportunity to say, "you know, this really isn't my thing after all," then you've given her the out to bow out gracefully without disappointing you or anyone else.
If she does say she wants to keep playing, tell her she needs to show a vested interest, or you will have to ask her to leave so you can invite someone else to play who will invest themselves in the game fully.
Also, if she does continue to play, ask her to stop playing on her computer.
I have a "during gaming sessions, electronic devices are for gaming tools and family necessities and emergencies only" rule at my table. You can have your laptop open to access your character, or use a die roller on your iPod. You can text your mom to let her know you'll be late for dinner.
You absolutely, positively, cannot play Minecraft (or listen to music, or watch amusing cat videos, or what have you) and if I had a player doing that I would ask them to stop, and if they insisted on doing that repeatedly, I would ask them to leave. The only exception is if we are all at the same time on a break and thus not actually playing.
I would suggest making a similar rule for the whole table in your games as well.
I'm not the DM for her but when we started a new AP with her in it she did the exact same thing from the VERY start of the game until we just silently dropped her since. Guessing from how she does not even ask about the game I'm running she did not care for whatever reason.
Anyway we has been part of this group for a year now, I joined it half a year ago. We have different GMs for different games and from everyone told me when they tried to tell her to get off the laptop she get annoyed and angry. Overall she is VERY immature and loud, but we sort of put up with it.
We are thinking of just silently dropping her since we normally invite her and someone goes pick her up. I think we should just go up and give her an ultimatum to either cut the laptop use, leave the game or just leave the group.
Ahh, so you are the player. I was too, in this similar situation. I tried to get the dm to see and do something. At first he ignored me and tried to keep playing. As less and less attention was paid, he eventually cracked down a bit, which was good.
After reading some recent posts:
Good good, give in to the hate!
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DEFINITELY don't just stop picking her up/calling her. That's downright hurtful.
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If they do not suffer, how will they learn respect? Lol.
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I don't think it's at all an unreasonable request that people pay attention during games. When you're in the game, you should be paying attention. Minecraft and Tumblr can wait until the game is over. There's no reason the GM shouldn't be able to ask that of the players, as long as it's done nicely. Just be sure that you're not singling out one player and allowing other players to get away with similar distractions.
However, if the player gets upset when anyone asks her to stop looking at her computer, perhaps a firmer approach is required. The GM could tell her that she's not allowed to bring her computer to the game, and if she can't comply with that rule then she's no longer welcome. There may be some hurt feelings, but it's her choice.
I agree with Big Lemon that there's no cause to be rude and hurtful by dropping her without explanation. Let her know what the problem is and give her the option of adjusting her behavior.
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Shut the wifi off during the game.
Talk to her. Say what you said in the first post--both including "hey, you put a lot of work in your backstory" but also "you are doing nothing to participate except when you are forced to." Ask her if she is bored--use those exact words--and if there is anything you could do to help draw her in.
Listen to her suggestions. Act on them if you can, and if not, explain the reasonable reason why you cannot. And if this gives her the opportunity to say, "you know, this really isn't my thing after all," then you've given her the out to bow out gracefully without disappointing you or anyone else.
If she does say she wants to keep playing, tell her she needs to show a vested interest, or you will have to ask her to leave so you can invite someone else to play who will invest themselves in the game fully.
Also, if she does continue to play, ask her to stop playing on her computer.
I have a "during gaming sessions, electronic devices are for gaming tools and family necessities and emergencies only" rule at my table. You can have your laptop open to access your character, or use a die roller on your iPod. You can text your mom to let her know you'll be late for dinner.
You absolutely, positively, cannot play Minecraft (or listen to music, or watch amusing cat videos, or what have you) and if I had a player doing that I would ask them to stop, and if they insisted on doing that repeatedly, I would ask them to leave. The only exception is if we are all at the same time on a break and thus not actually playing.
I would suggest making a similar rule for the whole table in your games as well.
Hard to add anything to that. It deserved more than a favourite. :)
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Sorry I missed this post earlier...
I'm not the DM for her but when we started a new AP with her in it she did the exact same thing from the VERY start of the game until we just silently dropped her since. Guessing from how she does not even ask about the game I'm running she did not care for whatever reason.
Anyway we has been part of this group for a year now, I joined it half a year ago. We have different GMs for different games and from everyone told me when they tried to tell her to get off the laptop she get annoyed and angry. Overall she is VERY immature and loud, but we sort of put up with it.
Well, if you are enabling her poor behavior, and then wondering why her poor behavior continues....
You have to set boundaries--this is true whether you are player or GM. If someone is disrespectful of those boundaries, and then you just go, "Okay, I guess we have to put up with it," then the problem player has successfully changed YOU -- you have opted to put up with unacceptable behavior rather than assert your boundaries -- rather than you changing the problem player.
I would suggest having a chat with the GMs and other players about what to do about this, and then ALL of you talk to her, per my post above.
We are thinking of just silently dropping her since we normally invite her and someone goes pick her up.
If you want to take the childish, passive aggressive route that will ultimately not solve problems nor avoid similar problems with other players in the future, sure. And god, if you're terrified of hurting her feelings simply asking her to stop using the laptop, but you're not terrified of what repercussions there might be if you all just ditch her?
Make a choice. She is the childish one. Do all you can not to join her camp. This includes learning to handle problem people by confronting them head on, not running away.
I think we should just go up and give her an ultimatum to either cut the laptop use, leave the game or just leave the group.
That's better. But I would also, per my earlier advice, give her the opportunity to air whatever concerns she might have about the game.
But there is absolutely no reason you should tolerate her behavior--but it behooves you and will help her perhaps be a better person if you confront her head on and make sure she understands exactly why she is being asked to leave (if it comes to that), rather than all of y'all disappearing. And if you handle the situation civilly and openly, you might even at the best result get a better player out of this..
Yeah, great ideas. Fb, flash game sites, full games on laptops.
Banhammer it all!
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Well, i can't ban and uninstall full games from my friend's laptops, but i can sure as hell ban anything that might distract them. Including youtube, 9gag, cat video sites and similar stuff.
Point being that if a player starts playing minecraft on his laptop, either he is being an inconsiderate prick, or my game is boring him. Either way, i need to talk to the player.
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Some people just think they're good multitaskers, no matter how many times they get caught with their pants down, so to speak.
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The phone bowl thing has worked wonders for me. My players and I are all relatively young. 24-26 with one guy who is 35. We are a bit what is called the 'smartphone generation'. It's almost a reflex to check in on stuff once in a while. So, we put the phones in a pretty bowl near the gaming table so that anyone can pick the phone up if someone calls (people know that they are gaming so they will only call and text if it's really important or an emergency). Even i am guilty of checking up on my phone from time to time.
As for banhammering sites, it's a tad extreme, but it also works. I can run and tell an engaging story, but i can't keep it incredibly interesting 100% of the time. Sometimes there is a lull, or a character gets separated from the rest and does his own thing. (yes, sometimes it works to split a party) some of the players will listen to what happens to the character who wandered off, and others will check up on rules and spells (because they can't do anything else, they've become more productive).
And once again I thank God I've never had to resort to any of these. I had to talk to a player once about just not being able to get into the game, but beyond that they've all been able to pay attention when they need to (if the group is split in half and I can only focus on two at a time, they can laptop to their hearts' contents, since their character wouldn't know what was going on anyway.
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Some people just think they're good multitaskers, no matter how many times they get caught with their pants down, so to speak.
Yep, and addiction can come into it.
"What are you doing?"
"I'm just checking fb."
"I've watched you check fb ten times in the last half hour."
*Resumes gaming*
*Twenty minutes later, checks fb again*
*Later someone is rping, so they open a game on their com and pay little attention to PF*
*Their body is never found*
Some people think this is fine, to carry out their typical computer habits during a game.
We have a similar problem to this in our current weekly game. A couple of players, actually, are habitually distracting themselves with electronic whatever. Ordinarily, this pisses me off to no end, but we have an extenuating circumstance: Our group is gigantic. We currently have eight players, in addition to the GM. Frankly, in combats, or scenes they're not in, it is really difficult to tell people they're not allowed to do something else, because there's a really large span of time where they have nothing to do. That being said, we have made a point of mentioning that when people need to pay attention, they have to put the damn thing away immediately. It works okay, when six people jump on you if you're holding things up.
I agree Hama, and Sho, a gaming group can be too large.
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In our current game, we have a "no cell phone during play" rule. We had one player that up until recently thought he was slick and would not get caught. He was wrong of course, because, as our DM put it - "Everyone who is trying to hide the fact they are on their smartphone has the same stupid semi-hunched pose."
Needless to say, the DM called him out on it and subsequently had a conversation with him privately later that evening.
If you cannot live without your smartphone for 5-8 hours, then you have a problem.
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Everyone already had great input, but let me say this.
Whatever you do, don't be "sneaky" about booting her, for example not inviting her to the next session. It just leads to more misunderstandings, more resentment. Be upfront about it. If you're sneaky about it, eventually she will try to contact you guys again and ask if there's a session, and since you guys were too weak to tell her in the first place she couldn't use her labtop, you'll let her play with you again. And the cycle starts again. It's time to tell her the truth and stop letting her ruin your game.
Personally, I would just drop her and tell her why the group is dropping her (assuming the group agrees). She's been asked numerous times to not use her labtop and play games during sessions and ignored them or raged at everyone, so f%&# her. This crap should have ended a LONG time ago, and no one put their foot down. I can't believe people allow other players to ruin their sessions and do nothing about it. So she doesn't deserve a second chance imo. Time is precious, life is short.
Whatever you do, don't be "sneaky" about booting her, for example not inviting her to the next session. It just leads to more misunderstandings, more resentment. Be upfront about it. If you're sneaky about it, eventually she will try to contact you guys again and ask if there's a session, and since you guys were too weak to tell her in the first place she couldn't use her labtop, you'll let her play with you again. And the cycle starts again. It's time to tell her the truth and stop letting her ruin your game.
Yeah, don't fall into Geek Social Fallacy #1.
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"Dead weight" is one thing. But when it comes to mobile phones, they're unfortunately here to stay and very much integrated into life now. Either a group consensus needs to be reached, or things can get ugly real awful quick.
I'm somewhat frustrated by the requirement of my company that folks in my position carry their work provided cell phone at all times, as hourly employees even, so if we're "suddenly needed" we can be reached. I gotta lug that stupid thing to game. (Don't get me started on the fact that I had to carry it to Iron Man 3, too.)
And sometimes it goes off. But normally I just get the group paging intended for whoever is scheduled to be on-call for that night/weekend, so it's not a huge deal.
But it can be a pain. Especially when we're paged multiple times in a few minutes due to an outage. Since I love what I do, I try not to stay frustrated. It's just part of an otherwise awesome job I get to do!
Also a pain: teenaged offspring who call to complain about something just because they're bored/lonely and Facebook isn't available at the moment. More than one group member has had to step away from combat for a few to answer those calls.
If the player cannot see the point and refuses to put his phone into a bowl out of a misguided sense of pride or "you can't tell me what to do"-ism, I'll be more then happy to show them the door.You are not their daddy. You can't tell them what to do. You're control over players ends at the edge of Golarion (or the Outer Planes I suppose). If it's not distracting from the game and they're an engaged player in the game, then who cares? I use my phone, especially at times when the party is split..and when it comes back to me I put the phone down. Obviously I'm not putting my focus on FB in combat either, so am I a bad Player?
Again, I understand if people all put them in the bowl because they agree that it distracts them and they have more fun without them. But to kick out a good player because he occasionally uses his phone is silly.
You are a bad player IF the group has mutually agreed upon a "no phone use" policy, which I believe is what Hama is talking about. In his group, if I understand it correctly, everyone has agreed to put the phone in the bowl. If you were hypothetically in this group, you presumably agreed to do so as well, or you would hypothetically not be playing with the group. You are a bad player because you are disrepecting, therefore, rules of the house which you agreed to follow. You are also a bad player in this case because the other players/GM has declared that phone use is distracting to them, so you can't say it isn't, no matter how much you would like it to not be true.
Also, the GM may not be the person's daddy, but a GM--and the group as a whole--has every right to invite and disinvite players to his or her game as he or she see fits.
NOW: if your actual gaming group doesn't mind your using your phone? Fine. That's your group. Every individual group has different and often unique rules, expectations, and limitations. Some people cannot abide any electronic device use whatsoever. Others can. Neither are wrong--but if one goes from one kind of group to the other, they have to be willing to adjust and adapt, or understand they may otherwise find themselves unwelcome. Just because we are all geeks doesn't mean we all work and act and behave the same way, nor should we.
(For me, if I just see someone just picking up a device and twiddling their fingers, I find it distracting [I also hate it when people knit in our church business meetings, where I am recording secretary, for the same reason]--it's just a form of movement that really breaks my focus, so if you were doing that in a group where I was GM, I would also ask you to stop. I also prefer players pay attention to what's going on at all times in the party anyway, even if the party's split--which I try to avoid--because information may be given that ultimately the whole party will know that I do not want to have to repeat. Generally speaking, I find the best groups are ones that are engaging in absolutely nothing but the game.)
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Getting away from the phone argument for a moment, let's discuss this bit:
Anyway she put a lot of effort into making this character's backstory but does NOTHING in the game. She is always on her laptop playing Minecraft or Tumblr, so she never tries to roleplayer her character unless spoke to and in combat she hardly knows what she's fighting, where her character is or what to even do. Also I NEVER see her with her sheet out and I wonder how she knows her stats completely by heart.
Player's completely disengaged. How do you handle?