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What I was thinking about, was making a med BaB class with full access to all 0 lvl spells and maybe the ability to buff them a bit. Like add int to dmg spells and the like. The concept is a character who is a failed Mage, has the spark, but not the capacity to develope it further than 0lvl spells. so he pours his focus into them, increasing their potency.
How would you suggest I go about building this class? Think of the movie Dragon Slayer...
The concept seems a bit awkward to me. Why would a failed mage be so good at any spells? Maybe give them a super limited spell list, only able to cast 0 level spells up to level 4, and from 4-20 use the progression that Ranger/Paladin get?
That's not a bad idea, but I want this class to feel akward. There are two ways to look at the approach.
Player A: has the ability, drive, and dream to be an arcanist. But try as he may, cannot grapple the arcane energy a required to master 1st lvl spells. Rather than abandon the dream he develops the talents he does have to augment other avenues.
Player B: was a prodigy, but lazy. Instead of putting in the work to be a truly powerful wizard, he spends his talent maximizing what he already knows in order to con small villages and communities into treating him like a king.
This class will be built to maximize the potential of the 0 lvl spells, he will never shape worlds to his will and single handedly take on gods and dragons, but he will never run out of juice, and will have access to all of the 0 lvl spells so he will have an answer for just about any adventure.
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Well, the pathfinder definition of Hedge magician tends to be 'magic item crafter'...
If we follow the current spellcaster conventions...
Summoning...
Enchantment...
Necromancy...
Evocation....
That would make this guy a ....
cantripper?
specialising in....
Cantripping? Cantripment? Cantripmancy? Cantripation?
Cantripation? Is this guy cantripated? You know I think i've got something for that... Be careful though. You take one of these babies and in about 20 minutes whatever's got your spellcasting blocked up is liable to cut loose all at once in a furious floam... Like having a bad case of arcanarhhea.
What if they were stuck and so were limited to o level spells until forteenth level, then they progressed brilliantly with a series of breakthroughs, like a severe late bloomer. They would have to embarrassingly be carried by the party for quite a while until they quicken and pass them all.
Perhaps add a gamble that may not pay off, if they make a breakthrough they have to roll at level to resist some alignment or mental health damage from such a flow of furious floam?
any thoughts as a witch archetype?
If you don't give him other class features then yes, he is an all around gimp. "Cantripmancy" (nice term btw) is the main focus, not the only one. I am imagining having a Mage hand that can lift creatures or perform combat maneuvers at range, or 0 lvl dmg spells that do 1d4 + 1/2 lvl (or something). Full effective caster lvls so he can use wands scrolls and staves as well or better than the big boys, just can't cast them on his own. He will be able to learn how to effectively wear light, medium armor, and shields without spell failure chance. He never has to worry if he has "that" 0 lvl spell, because he has all of them.
Might want to check this out:
Link
It's a bunch of feats and spells focused on cantrips. Honestly, I think this concept is much better as feats than a class; that way, anyone who has a little magical ability can use it. A fighter that wants to be good at cantrips can take a single level of wizard and then take a bunch of feats to empower them.
EDIT: Should be noted that some of the feats are specifically for E6 campaigns and may seem weird, such as Expert Specialist.
But these should fit very well for what you're trying to do:
Prerequisites ability to cast 0th level arcane spells, spellcraft 1 rank, knowledge (arcana) 1 rank
Benefit You automatically succeed spellcraft checks to identify cantrips, and casting cantrips defensively does not require a concentration check. When applying metamagic to a cantrip, you may ignore the level adjustment for one metamagic feat on a given spell. You can not ignore the level adjustment of a heightened spell.
Special A wizard may select this as one of his bonus feats, even though it isn't an item creation or metamagic feat.
Prerequisites ability to prepare and cast 0th level arcane spells, spellcraft 1 rank, knowledge (arcana) 1 rank
Benefit You may prepare and cast an additional number of cantrips to your intelligence modifier. For each cantrip feat you possess, this number increases by one.
Special A wizard may select this as one of his bonus feats, even though it isn't an item creation or metamagic feat.
Prerequisites ability to cast 0th level arcane spells, spellcraft 1 rank, knowledge (arcana) 1 rank
Benefit You learn an additional number of cantrips equal to the modifier of your main casting attribute. For each other cantrip feat you have, this number increases by one. In addition, you learn the prestidigitation cantrip. Whenever you gain a cantrip feat, you learn one more cantrip.
Special A wizard may select this as one of his bonus feats, even though it isn't an item creation or metamagic feat.
Very nice! This maybe be what I am looking for. Thanks for sharing.
Ok, going forward, I have some ideas for 0 lvl spell buffs that may or may not get used.
Mage hand: like telekinesis but range of 25ft +5/ lvl, and 5lbs/ lvl.
Ray of frost/ acid splash/ ray of frost: +1/2 lvl dmg
Resistance: +1 to saves/ 4 lvls
Daze: 4hd +1/lvl
Disrupt undead: 1d6 + 1/2 lvls
Virtue: 1 temp HP/ 2lvls
How should I emplement these? 1 feat? A class ability?
I dislike the idea of making changes to individual spells themselves; if the spells get strong enough to compete with higher level spells, why not simply give them higher level spells?
If you're going to do it spell by spell, it's probably better to grant the effect of the spell as a spell-like or supernatural ability.
The main method for increasing the power of spells in the game is metamagic feats. Allowing those to be applied more freely is IMO a better idea than modifying the spells themselves.
Also, stuff like adding +1/2 level damage to ray of frost is a meaningless ability, because the ray will still be so weak there's no use for it in combat. I mean, say at level 4, this character can choose between casting a ray of frost for 1d3+2 damage or simply throw an alchemist fire for about equal damage on the first round, but that splashes and burns. At level 10, the 1d3+5 damage will just be a waste of time regardless of situation. You spend a whole round to deal 7 damage average to the 130 hp monster, meanwhile the monk/wizard/barbarian lulzbuild fires it's crossbow for like 30 damage and one of the real warriors deal like 80 damage.
I could see more use for a more powerful mage hand effect, but think it's better just to implement this either as a class ability (like that arcane trickster ability) or as a new spell.
Thing is, these are _really_ weak abilities, and really shouldn't affect a class. It's not nearly enough to lower someone to 2/3 BAB - heck, you could make a class with these abilities, full BAB, all good saves, and 4+int skills and it would be a WEAK class.
I also have an issue with visualizing this character in-game. "Hey, I'm a failed mage that can cast really weak spells but they're really powerful". "So, you're like an average spellcaster then?" "No, no, I'm bad at spells, I just cast these really weak spells much more powerfully than anyone else".
It just doesn't jive very well with me. Seems a bit to much "giant miniature space hamster".
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Rather than just adding a flat bonus to damage, such as +1/2 level or +Int, perhaps the 'cantrip master' would gain the higher level spell slots, but be unable to fill them with anything other than enhanced versions of his cantrips.
For instance, he might prepare Ray of Frost in a 2nd level slot, and be able to produce a Ray of Frost that inflicts 1d3/level, up to a maximum of 5d3. Different modifications might be applied like metamagics, such as one that increases range from Close to Medium, but requires the cantrip to be prepared in a slot 1 level higher, or one that affects up to 1 target / caster level, but, again, must be prepared in a slot 1 level higher.
I (vaguely) remember a 3.X 3rd party product that had a 'Master of Small Magics' Prestige Class that was based on enhanced use of low level spells. I like the basic idea, of the would-be wizard who simply will never be able to cast fireball or haste, but has to try and come up with techniques to 'make do' with the lesser magics that are within his reach.
Designing this with the intent that its to be an NPC class, like the Adept or the Warrior, could also rationalize such a class being distinctly sub-par compared to someone with levels in a PC class like Wizard or Cleric, if you want to go that route.
Ok, I did remember something like this.
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/1854/Power-Class-Hedge-Wizard?it=1
It's honestly been a long time since I've looked at this book, so I don't remember details.
Ok, this is not a wizard or a sorcerer. This is something less and more. Think along the lines of a bard or magus, but with better class abilities to make up for the lack of spell versatility. An adventurer with access to all 0 lvl spells, with over half of them relevant if not optimal. It's a utility focus.
Hmmm... What I'd do, is first come up with what you want in terms of fluff. Then consider what the best way to meet that fluff would be.
This feels as if you started at the mechanic end, and that often tends to lead to a class feeling "unnatural" and shoe-horned in.
For example, the reason for me to create those feats where in an E6/E7 world where most of the spellcasters would never learn higher magic because they did not come across it - they where small-town hedge mages that didn't have any formal magical education; while they may be witches or wizards classwise, they'd never reach beyond 1st or second level.
The feats where at least as much for NPC's as PC's, but could provide utility for even an educated caster.
Because of what I needed the mechanics for, a class-based approach would have been really awkward (since the reason they focus on cantrips is that they are low-level and probably only ever will be), and an approach that added effects to the cantrips to make them comparable to higher-level spells would have been awkward (since it'd be more appropriate to just give the characters higher levels, or in the case of PC's, cantrips shouldn't outspell higher-level spells they know).
The fluff you've posted so far:
Player A: has the ability, drive, and dream to be an arcanist. But try as he may, cannot grapple the arcane energy a required to master 1st lvl spells. Rather than abandon the dream he develops the talents he does have to augment other avenues.
Player B: was a prodigy, but lazy. Instead of putting in the work to be a truly powerful wizard, he spends his talent maximizing what he already knows in order to con small villages and communities into treating him like a king.
Honestly feels MUCH more like multiclass characters. Or, well, the first one seems weird regardless as someone who cannot grapple arcane energy and cannot learn to do so shouldn't be an arcanist regardless; why should a cantrip that deals 8 damage require less energy than a 1st level spell that deals 5?
But honestly, if I were to create these characters, I'd make a wizard/rogue or bard/rogue. And, if the feats above where allowed, maybe take those.
But I don't see why someone who's lazy should be able to optimize her cantrips so much that they outshine proper wizards 1st and 2nd level spells, either with time. Researching and improving spells beyond their normal power level should require quite a fair bit more work than just learning established spells of higher level.
So so far, this feels like a solution lacking a problem, kinda.
Yes, there is not alot of fluff, but this is concept phase...
Yes, but the thing is, concept phase should be about how it works in-world, rather than mechanics. That's at the core of the issue.
Like, when in the concept phase of the barbarian, the thought should be "what rules do we need to allow representing a character that's a wilderness fighter, lacking in civilized training but competing by cunning, instincts and brute force anger?"
rather than
"how would we create a base class that uses a rounds/day mechanic to get combat bonuses?"
The second method will lead to a class that feels mechanical and uninspiring.
I see. Great point, thanks for your input and patience thus far.
The concept is a skilled, utility character who never runs out of juice. I want him too be skilled with a variety of magical items if not the actual spells themselves. I don't know if that helps, but that's what I have in mind. I know I tend to do things backwards, but that is how my brain is wired. I see the flavor come from the mechanics, rarely the other way around.
So tell us what makes this class different than a UMD-based rogue.
All 0 lvl spells, and a full caster lvl. Imp arcane strike: +1 hit and dmg/ 4lvls. Other mechanics that I want to work out after the flavor issue is solved. Maybe int to saves or AC, imp 0lvl spells. Hell, we can throw in a spell filching ability and make it an alternate rogue base class. The spell thief, that would open up more flavor and mechanics, but that was not my original intent... Doesn't mean it couldn't work though.
How about after suffering/ or benefiting from the effects of a spell, he receives a charge bonus = to 1d6/ spell lvl to his next successful attack. Later he could convert it into a healing surge instead of a dmg bonus. This would work even if he saves vs the spell effects. It's a mechanic that writes its own flavor. Also if you gave him up to 4th lvl spells like the original spell thief, he could use charged spell lvls to decrease the cost of any meta magic feat he knows. Just some ideas...
I think this would be best made as an archetype to either the rogue or the alchemist.
EDIT: Or as a feat chain. I mean, about three feats for "cast all sor/wiz cantrips unlimited times per day with caster level equal to character level" wouldn't seem unbalanced at all.
You don't like the alternate base class idea? I thought the "spell battery" idea ala Bishop from x-men fame was pretty sexy... But I've been known to be wrong... We could leave all the 0 lvl spells alone, and a fireball (for instance) could cause a ray of frost or melee attack do an extra 3d6 dmg. This mechanic + imp arcane strike would replace SA and evasion for instance.
Generally, abilitues tied to specific spells (other than granting them) are avoided, the same is true for specific items.
I dont think this fits for a whole class concept, but i'm known to be generally anti on new baseclasses. Others will probably disagree. My knowledge of xmen is limited, but have you looked at the abilities of the magus (and its archetypes)? Sounds a bit like that.
Here is a crash course an who Bishop is and what he can do. Not the best video, but it works.
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If I wanted to play a failed magician who was sneaky and could stab people, I'd probably take one level of Sorcerer, then just go rogue and never look back.
I think the term "failed mage" was a tragic error on my part. The idea has evolved somewhat...
Ok, so the idea has moved from the aforementioned "failed mage" to an arcanist who can channel raw arcane energies to his purpose. I like the idea of converting spell energy into a tool. I think I am going to stick with an alternate base class of the rogue.
What I was thinking about, was making a med BaB class with full access to all 0 lvl spells and maybe the ability to buff them a bit. Like add int to dmg spells and the like. The concept is a character who is a failed Mage, has the spark, but not the capacity to develope it further than 0lvl spells. so he pours his focus into them, increasing their potency.
How would you suggest I go about building this class? Think of the movie Dragon Slayer...
I am really weirded out right now because this is a class I built a couple of months ago. I abandoned it 80% of the way into a first draft. I did make it a four level arcane caster though.
Link me, maybe we can tag team it.
Awesome more progress. :)
Byrdology, have you checked the 3.5 warlock? That could provide some useful rules for comparison.
Actually, I was just thinking about that. I'll have to go into demo mode and see if I can put something together. Thanks again for all the input.