I just want to clarify something; there are five dungeon levels in the Thornkeep book, and there are five chronicle sheets available for download.
Upon completion of every one of these five dungeon levels a character would receive 3XP and 4PP (or 1.5XP and 2PP on slow advancement), correct?
Thanks, that's how I understood it, I just wanted to make sure, as I was surprised because each level is only about 8 pages long.
Interesting, I haven't gotten around to reading the actual book yet. So far I've only run online and home game PFS sessions (still no venture-lieutenants in our country), and our group's sessions usually run longer, so that should be something.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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In my experience:
A brand new, 150-gold-and-a-mule PC will find Thornkeep challenging. Be sure to take treasure back to town, meet with the blacksmiths and arcane guild, and pick up equipment during the first level.
1st-level PCs with 1 or 2 XP do all right, particularly if they spend time researching clues and rumors around town so they have an idea what to expect.
2nd-level PCs walk through almost every encounter in the first level. Even the "tough fights" are just level-appropriate challenges.
--
Deeper levels are << SPOILERS >>.
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We made Thornkeep a focus for Linkscon this past weekend, and although there were a few PC deaths, overall everyone seemed to enjoy it. We ran the event in standard convention format (8am-1pm; 1pm-6pm; dinner; 7pm-midnight) and nearly every table finished on-time.
There's no reason that a group shouldn't finish each level in a standard slot - it's important to note that, with DM permission/caveat, of course, the PCs can return to town to rest and resupply during each floor.
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My group had very little difficulty in the first 2 levels of thornkeep. They were right out the gate first level PCs.
Only really one fight that had them in danger at all in the first 2. Then only the "boss" of 3 was particularly challenging.
Time wise, I have found they run in 4ish hours, the 5th level certainly ran the longest, taking about 4.5 hours.
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You should allow at least 5 hours for most of the levels. 6 would be better. The last one I would schedule at least 6 hours for. More if you don't want to be rushed.
While a group and GM that tear through each level - ignoring any roleplay or dungeon flavor - may finish in 4 hours. It is a very tight 4 hours.
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My group had very little difficulty in the first 2 levels of thornkeep. They were right out the gate first level PCs.
Only really one fight that had them in danger at all in the first 2. Then only the "boss" of 3 was particularly challenging.
Time wise, I have found they run in 4ish hours, the 5th level certainly ran the longest, taking about 4.5 hours.
How did your group handle the
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how did you handle the ** spoiler omitted **
Fairly optimized party, admittedly. with 5 PCs.
Halfling ninja with 20 dex, a chain shirt, and the +1 AC while next to only 1 enemy trait. soo 20/21 AC
Fighter with 24 HP, Toughness, Tribal Scars, 18 con, +1 AC trait, +8 from armor/shield and either 1 or two dex, can't remember. (four-mirror + heavy shield)
Druid with 18 str, a greataxe*, and a dinosaur pet. and cures
*I said greatsword two posts up, it was an axe, oops.
Blaster wizard with painful magic missiles
Bomb Alchemist, who understand targeting squares :), also with cures prepared
They did rest after the Kinevon spoiler.
I don'think the pre-gens could do it very easily (it's possible, but dangerous) Most normal parties would have to just run past the -CWheezy- .
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The Shadow, I think, did tag one of them, but oney once, and none of my players used Strength as a dump stat.
The Wight, though, especially since they IDed it, had them seriously worried.
But the fungal crickets, with their waaaay too many attacks, 3 for a full attack, 4 for a charge/jump, was pretty much a bad show all around.
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The group I ran though it. Did not have to many problems. How ever there where a few times. They where sweating some of the encounters. They where complaining about a few of the monsters. How ever a well made party should have no true problems.
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I ran the first three levels for the same group this past weekend at a con. Three of the four were 2.1 or 2.2 and one was 2.0. The party was optimized, but for a lack of missile weapons and a sorcerer or wizard. One player switched characters between level two and three (from rogue to wizard) which increased their odds in level three.
I knocked a few down on the first level. Their lack of ranged attacks hurt them in certain rooms. They needed to retreat from the second level end boss. They retreated with no idea he was
For CWheezy, they rotated people into the line of fire. I got two hits and then my dice went cold. The group's front line melee types had decent AC so the attacks were not auto hits.
The third level was a little different.
Having played through the levels first definitely helped. I knew what to expect time wise and the difficulty level. I think a five hour time slot is about right. We had eight hours scheduled. Because of this, we went at a relaxed pace and took several breaks (food, beverage, whathaveyous).
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I just ran a group of four first level PCs through The Accursed Halls. My impression is that this section of the module was not playtested against new PCs.
(2)Wight has a touch attack of +4, can totally TPK four PCs (and four is what the module states it was designed for) with only four attacks.
(3)Shadow is incorporeal, thus it cannot be harmed at all by non-magical weaponry, and only half-damage from magical weapons and spell damage. First level PCs are unlikely to have magical weaponry, and their damaging spells are equally limited.
(4) Shadows and centipedes do ability damage that requires large amounts of lesser restorations. First level PCs' only recourse is to go back to town, and beg a cleric to cast on them. The PCs had to have lesser restoration case for them nine times!
Based upon the above, while The Accursed Halls section of the module might be appropriate for second level PCs, it does not appear to appropriate for first level PCs, especially those new to the Society.
By the way, skipping most of the in-town roleplaying allowed us to get right into the dungeon (with just enough as new Pathfinders to be sent to find out what was going on), the section took us five and a half hours. I see how it could be run to take only four hours, but that would require high efficiency for the GM and the players, and cutting out any non-combat role-playing.
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Ira, about one of your points:
** spoiler omitted **
You're absolutely right. I confused it (here on the boards) with the attack from the other critter. (Though it was played correctly yesterday.)
Still, an attack that can confer instant death, is a little too reminiscent of the Save or Die encounters in a certain other RPG company's first and second editions.
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Ira,
One option with Thornkeep is the party can run away, rest up and heal the old fashioned way. There's no 'time limit' with the accursed halls.
<snip>
And they did run away. Several times. But having a PC with 9 ability damage means, I believe, nine days of inactivity. Now, as a GM, I can waive that away, but, if their in-game Venture Captain has given them a mission to find out what was being searched for, PCs can be reluctant to spend that much time, in-game, out of activity.
I am tempted to "let them find" a bandolier with five Oils of Magic Weapon and twelve Potions of Lesser Restoration in it, especially if all the PCs are first level and at least two of them are newbies who cannot afford to have magical weapons, and their healer is not going to have Lesser Restoration
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Spoiler:I am tempted to "let them find" a bandolier with five Oils of Magic Weapon and twelve Potions of Lesser Restoration in it.
That sounds reasonable, but if you do that, make sure everybody at your table understands that it's a home game and that you won't be handing out any Chronicles for playing.
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** spoiler omitted **That sounds reasonable, but if you do that, make sure everybody at your table understands that it's a home game and that you won't be handing out any Chronicles for playing.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm understanding you as stating that, for there to be credit for playing, it is more important to have a good possibility to kill off multiple PCs (albeit first level), and infuriate players (who felt that the level of the challenges was set a bit too high), than to provide an challenge appropriate to the level of the PCs the players bring to the table.
Even in the modern scenarios, we are instructed to modify the challenges based upon party level.
Are the purpose of the challenges to cull the weak, or provide a fun, gaming experience to the players?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The purpose of any role-playing game is to provide a fun gaming experience.
The purpose of Organized Play is to provide a standardized play environment, as well. If your judgement, as GM, is that a party is too weak for an adventure, you should advise them thus. You shouldn't change up encounters to make them either more or less challenging, or add or remove loot.
See if you can find the post from Mike Brock about the experienced GM who was running a convention special and decided to add black dragons for a low sub-tier party, 'cause it would be cool, and then add a lot of compensatory loot, like your [[redacted]], to help them out afterwards.
"If I don't slavishly adhere to an encounter, then everyone loses the Chronicle?" Slavishly adhere? That's not what I'm talking about. But don't add to the goodies that the party finds. If you think they need that, then change things up as you please, but don't play it as PFS.
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** spoiler omitted **That sounds reasonable, but if you do that, make sure everybody at your table understands that it's a home game and that you won't be handing out any Chronicles for playing.Please correct me if I am wrong, but I'm understanding you as stating that, for there to be credit for playing, it is more important to have a good possibility to kill off multiple PCs (albeit first level), and infuriate players (who felt that the level of the challenges was set a bit too high), than to provide an challenge appropriate to the level of the PCs the players bring to the table.
** spoiler omitted **
Even in the modern scenarios, we are instructed to modify the challenges based upon party level.
Are the purpose of the challenges to cull the weak, or provide a fun, gaming experience to the players?
Ira, whatever happens behind the screen stays behind the screen. Chris is referring to your earlier spoiler. If this happens, then you have altered the module and thus it is not legal per society rules. If they want to go to town and befriend the locals then they can purchase supplies. I think one of the local clergy will offer their services and another local can brew various potions for the group. At cost, naturally.
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My opinion on the module as a player. Monster spoilers inside.
** spoiler omitted **
Number one, welcome to PFS and I hope you do decide to come back. Thornkeep is the exception and not the rule.
Honestly, I always warn players with brand new level 1s to not play this module. Of course, not all GMs do that or maybe even know of it's deadliness. Anyone who frequents these boards know, but I am willing to gamble the majority of PFS GMs do not check the boards regularly.
The first level of this module can be deadly. Thankfully, it is also replayable, so feel free to come back at a later date with another character (maybe a level 2) and "wipe the floor" with it later as revenge :)
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Also remember that there are several classes that can Channel Positive Energy to harm undead, and a Shadow is fairly vulnerable to even a first level Cleric's channels.
Also, Oil of Magic Weapon is only 50 gp, and the party would have access to money for the portions completed, just remember to add that 50 gp spent in the money spent box on the chronicle.
Additionally, the Shadow won't leave the room it is found in.
The wight is scary, but against most of the PCs who are likely to wind up near it, it has a very low chance of hitting. +4 vs an AC of 17 or higher? Then again, the wight is supposed to be scary.
The fungal crawlers are the real problem, but I think I may have run themwrong the first time I GMed this level.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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An observation regarding difficulty.
Like many Pathfinder modules, the Thornkeep levels sort of expect that normal, non-Organized-Play parties will rise in level part-way through the adventure. Recall that the first level of "Crypt of the Everflame" is much easier than the last couple of encounters. I've run "From Shore to Sea" several times, and it's the same way: once you get past the midway point, it gets a lot tougher.
In PFS, we don't level-up in the middle of an adventure. So either the early encounters are easy, or the later encounters are pretty tough.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Very few fresh characters have 50 out of their 150g left over after buying armor and such. Which is assuming the GM is kind enough to give us hints on what is in the halls in advance.
First, it sounds like you're just not going to be happy 'bout this, and there's not much we can do 'bout it. That's fine; there's room for grumpy people, too.
But these aren't the first encounters in the place. You have already cleaned out a batch of goblins and taken their gear. You've already found stuff at the bottom of a trapped pit. That's all and above the gold your PC started with. Walk back into the sunlight, talk to the Thornkeep priest of Gozreh, and arm yourself.
As to the GM being generous and giving hints: hardly. Talk to the Blue Basilisks, they have a very good idea what's going on. Talk to Chief Groolsk, he has reports from his agents in there.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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When you run through a module in PFS, you follow all the rules of the module. For example, "From Shoe to Sea" uses random encounters. When you run it in PFS, use the random encounter table. This past weekend, I played through "Ruby Phoenix Tournament", although Performance Combat rules aren't legal for PFS in general, the module uses them, so you use them when you play through the module in PFS.
Having said that, you always have the option in Pathfinder Society to spend gold as you find it. The Chronicle sheet simply lists the total amount you received throughout the adventure. If you're running through, say, Sewer Dragons of Absalom and you want to spend loot you gathered in Act One to buy something before Act Three, there's nothing stopping you from doing so.
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Very few fresh characters have 50 out of their 150g left over after buying armor and such. Which is assuming the GM is kind enough to give us hints on what is in the halls in advance.<snip>
But these aren't the first encounters in the place. You have already cleaned out a batch of goblins and taken their gear. You've already found stuff at the bottom of a trapped pit. That's all and above the gold your PC started with. Walk back into the sunlight, talk to the Thornkeep priest of Gozreh, and arm yourself.
<snip>
Your assumption is that the PCs go that route, and clear out the easy stuff first. If, instead, they go the other route, they hit the hard stuff, without the goblins' gear or the other helpful things they can find if going the easy route.
While, as a player, I make fun of how railroading some scenarios are, I can understand why they should be that way (and most times, even welcome it). It makes sure that key items (or information) are acquired prior to their being needed.
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Ira,
Unless you somehow allow 1st level PCs access to higher level spells like Teleport or Dimension Door, there is no possible way that they cannot have faced at least one batch of goblins. No possible way.
Along with the normal goblin gear, the following is given for defeating the goblins:
Treasure: One of the goblin archers has a pouch containing
60 gp, a potion of cure light wounds, and a small gold ring with
an emerald worth 100 gp.
That gives the PCs access to both a free potion of CLW for the duration of the module, until used; but 160 gp that can be used immediately for additional materials.
It is only after dealing with the first batch of goblins that the PCs have any choice in where they go next.
And there are both no time limits, and no penalties, for the PCs leaving the Accursed Halls at any time, resting up, stocking up, and coming back later.
It isn't like any of the goblins really communicate with each other while down there, after all.
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Ira,
Unless you somehow allow 1st level PCs access to higher level spells like Teleport or Dimension Door, there is no possible way that they cannot have faced at least one batch of goblins. No possible way.
** spoiler omitted **
It is only after dealing with the first batch of goblins that the PCs have any choice in where they go next.
Agreed. Except that the consumable was used before the PCs could acquire it. Then they went the hard way.
And there are both no time limits, and no penalties, for the PCs leaving the Accursed Halls at any time, resting up, stocking up, and coming back later.
It isn't like any of the goblins really communicate with each other while down there, after all.
And from this, I now know to hint (very strongly) to the players that retreat and recuperation are always an option.
It just seems a bit odd that PCs could spend a week recuperating, and reenter the Accursed Halls, and nothing would have reacquired the space made empty by the PCs.
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My last group were having very bad dice rolls, and mine as GM were fairly good. No PC deaths, but massive use of PC expendables (not consumables, but things like Channels and 1st level spells). The PCs kept having to rest after almost every room for the first few rooms.
As to things moving in:
No new goblins are available, the goblin leader involved brought all her minions when she first arrived.
And, for animals and such, the entrance to the Accursed Halls is, just about literally, in the center of town.
So, unless the PCs take an extended vacation (a month?), nothing new is likely to be able to move in in the interim.
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One thing about that shadow
That being said, groups that I had run through that part of the dungeon seem dead set on defeating the Shadow. We had one interesting debate that nearly turned ugly with one group. Fortunately they got lucky with rolls and didn't take too much damage.