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All full casters are broken.
A Witch stands out because he trades the massive versatility and higher slots per day of the wizard's spell list and specialization for the ability to spam Su (ie, no spell resistance) save or dies all day long. Since a wizard can also easily save or die enemies, it isn't really more powerful it's just more jarring because the witch's offensive hexes and spell list are all built around that one single-minded purpose, while as a wizard can do many other things, too.
I was playing a game as a Witch, basic build, I really cant remember it right now but the part I DO remember is having picked the Sleep hex.
I voluntarily retired the character after we got to the leader of the band of bad guys (the boss fight), I got within 30 feet, Sleep Hexxed him, he rolled a 1 on the Will, the rest of the party walked up and coupe-de-graced him to death
Now I get you play as a spellcaster , you can get the Sleep spell, but that has a hard limit of 4 HD. The Sleep Hex doesnt.
There was another guy who made a Witch who knew every single first level spell (I cant remember how but it was all legal, our DM went over it with a fine toothed comb when he say how thick his spell list was).
This class seems to need some fine tuning to make it in line with the rest. Is that just our limited experiences?
Most of the new classes seem to have this issue. They just dont seem to scale well in comparison with the rest of the base classes
Deep Slumber goes to 10 HD. Symbol of Sleep also. There are many wizard "save or suck" spells. If a BBEG rolls a 1 on his save against them, the battle is over, too.
And, many things are immune to the Slumber hex.
I was playing a game as a Witch, basic build, I really cant remember it right now but the part I DO remember is having picked the Sleep hex.
I voluntarily retired the character after we got to the leader of the band of bad guys (the boss fight), I got within 30 feet, Sleep Hexxed him, he rolled a 1 on the Will, the rest of the party walked up and coupe-de-graced him to death
Now I get you play as a spellcaster , you can get the Sleep spell, but that has a hard limit of 4 HD. The Sleep Hex doesnt.
There was another guy who made a Witch who knew every single first level spell (I cant remember how but it was all legal, our DM went over it with a fine toothed comb when he say how thick his spell list was).
This class seems to need some fine tuning to make it in line with the rest. Is that just our limited experiences?
Most of the new classes seem to have this issue. They just dont seem to scale well in comparison with the rest of the base classes
The witch is not broken. It can be annoying for a GM that likes to use single creature encounters though, due to sleep and evil eye. As for knowing every first level spell it is possible, but he has to pay for the spells, just like a wizard would.
Ive seen some hideously broken Gunslingers for instance (I was a mage casting a 6D6 fireball, the Gunslinger was using alchemic rounds or something and douing about twice my max damage - per shot), Magus who somehow got more HP than the Barbarian in the party at the time -.-
Yeah, guns are extremely unbalanced. How good or weak they are depends on "tech level" and wealth far far more than any other combat style or weapon, and the random misfire chances are completely arbitrary and aren't felt if they never happen.
Being able to full attack touch attack and deadly aim it is just insane.
And for the barbarian...I've seen a 3E Sorc (ie, d4 HD) have more hp than the barbarian in the party. That's what happens when you roll for hp and the sorc has a higher con score thanks to not being multiple ability dependent. It's why I never DM w/o giving at least 3/4 the HD in fixed hp if not outright full HD, to ensure those d10's and d12's actually mean something.
I could kind of understand a blaster caster complaining, since he hardly benefited from the rule but pays for it in needing more spells expended to do his thing.
From the fighter, though? Yeah...
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Guns really really aren't unbalanced, complaining your fireball isn't doing as much damage is silly.
As I know 2handed builds that do the same or more than gunslingers.
Also expecting your fireball to do massive damage is failing to realize the shift in design philosophy the game has taken. Control is where it's at, and they really intentionally toned down most offensive abilities full casters have so it's more team oriented.
Witches with slumber hex is playing the game on easy mode.
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Witches with slumber hex is playing the game on easy mode.
Agreed. I play two witches, and I've adopted the habit of never casting the same hex twice in a row. Maybe two flavors of Evil Eye, but never two Slumbers. I like the feel of keeping it variable, and I like the tactical decision "do I cast Slumber now, or wait until next round?".
Witches are a solid class, they are not, however, OP.
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I was playing a game as a Witch, basic build, I really cant remember it right now but the part I DO remember is having picked the Sleep hex.
I voluntarily retired the character after we got to the leader of the band of bad guys (the boss fight), I got within 30 feet, Sleep Hexxed him, he rolled a 1 on the Will, the rest of the party walked up and coupe-de-graced him to death
What did you do versus undead, constructs or anything else immune to sleep?
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What did you do against anyone that had a decent Will save? Or even that didn't roll a 1, for that matter.
And if you fail, Accursed Hex lets you re-try next round anyway. :)
What did you do against anyone that had a decent Will save? Or even that didn't roll a 1, for that matter.Given that slumber's DC scales with level, that it can be modified by feats and racial abilities, it isn't too hard to make a "decent" will save pretty meaningless. I'm pretty sure DC 19 (maybe 20) is doable at first level, that's dropping casting focused dwarven clerics half the time.
It's doable at 1st level, yes, but it doesn't scale THAT well into the higher levels. If you've got a DC 19 at first level, by 10th level it's still only about 25-26 (given you get Int enhancing items and/or something like Ability Focus).
By that point you have similar abilities that can do even worse to the enemy.
The Witch is a debuffer. That's what she does, and she does it well. But debuffing has quite a limit to it, in that good saves and immunities will screw them over more than any other kind of caster.
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the most powerful character in the game is a scarred witch doctor by far. i would rather play a scarred witch doctor then a summoner.
but the basic witch is a game changer in your party, i built my wife one and she would misfortune + cackle and ruin the bbegs. but on a lot of smaller enemies she would be at a big disadvantage and would have to play defensively.
i think witches are very powerful, but not OP. i mean who cares about sleep hex when i can play a barbarian,god wizard, cleric, rage prophit, or paladin. all of those classes are much much much more op then a witch... but not a scarred witch doctor.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I play a witch, and it isn't OP.
While I am able to shut down enemies, it often takes three rounds to do so, and some have taken five. You could just start right out with a slumber hex, but that only works on weaker, lower level foes. If you want to take out a foe with a strong Will save, you need debuff them. I often try to spend a round or two doing just that, and even then the hexes didn't always work.
Witches are also very squishy, more so than most other spellcaster builds. My witch has been killed once and brought close to death several other times simply because he has to be in range for his hexes and spells. My GM doesn't hold back and has no problem attacking the weakest target when the opportunity presents itself.
Lastly, the witch is very limited in what they can do, even if they do it amazingly well. Throw a construct, undead, or a plant at a witch and watch them struggle to be effective. It took some creative thinking in several fights to even be useful.
In Short:
- Can really only focus on one target at a time.
- Can take some time and resources to prepare targets.
- Very Squishy.
- Not effective against all enemies.
- Limited in spells.
- Poor defensive abilities.
- Limited buffing ability.
What did you do against anyone that had a decent Will save? Or even that didn't roll a 1, for that matter.Given that slumber's DC scales with level, that it can be modified by feats and racial abilities, it isn't too hard to make a "decent" will save pretty meaningless. I'm pretty sure DC 19 (maybe 20) is doable at first level, that's dropping casting focused dwarven clerics half the time.It's doable at 1st level, yes, but it doesn't scale THAT well into the higher levels. If you've got a DC 19 at first level, by 10th level it's still only about 25-26 (given you get Int enhancing items and/or something like Ability Focus).
By that point you have similar abilities that can do even worse to the enemy.
The Witch is a debuffer. That's what she does, and she does it well. But debuffing has quite a limit to it, in that good saves and immunities will screw them over more than any other kind of caster.
Its DC scales every bit as nicely as spells. And a DC 26 is still very difficult for anything that isn't specifically focused on will saves to make. (Your average wizard, for example, is only going to have +10 or so. That's 75% chance of failure. Fighters and rogues even less.
As nicely, but not MORE nicely.
I think everybody here knows and understands that spells that target Will saves f&@$ everything any time of the day or night in this game.
But the Slumber Hex isn't more powerful than any spell (besides, of course, the basic Sleep spell since it doesn't have the HD limit) so it's not broken in that regard. No more broken than any other caster, anyway.
I retired my character at level 15. I stopped having fun with it once I hit level 12. Things I went up against the most always had immunities to what I could cast, or I always fell victim to a poor save that something the pre-generated module had thrown at us (like a monster's stench or the dragon's fear ability).
Don't get me wrong, I love Evil Eye. Save or not, its a great hex, but after a while, if most combat fights I participate in for my group last 3 rounds and I get 1-2 chances to mess with an enemy, I'm lucky if my debuffing even mattered for the rest of the party at that point.
Slumber is a harsh mistress of a hex. My DM frowned upon me using it against single baddies, but never ruled against it. Unfortunately, it quickly ends combat for the rest of the group too, which others in the party have not shown their happy support for. I like it, but between that, Evil Eye, and Misfortune, the character had sort of become a one-trick pony.
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The witch is powerful in some areas (like the slumber hex) and weak in others.
The witch's spells and hexes are primarily enchantment-based. This means the witch is crippled when it comes to undead, constructs and abberations.
Take a closer look at the witch's spell list, and you'll see a lot of spells you loved on your wizard that aren't there for a witch.
A wizard's spellbook can be destroyed, but it can be a lot easier for a witch's familiar to die, which is catastrophic.
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our PFS GM would always have some baddie nearby or going poison to damage their guys, or some other bs rational to negate sleep like (he fell due to suddenly falling asleep while standing and takes 1d6 damage, he's awake now... but hey he's prone!)
...Did you ever happen to report this to the people who run the local group? Seems blatantly against the rules and really dickish.
It isn't that witch is OP compared to other spellcasters: it's that it is very easy to optimise a witch due to their monobuild structure. Most of the trap choices are obvious, and the great options are absolute no-brainers (slumber, evil eye, fortune, cackle).
Wizards are better than the witch, with a better spell selection, less fragile spellbook and more ranged options. However, wizards are reasonably difficult to optimise if you aren't an experienced player: the fact that one of the players here was talking about fireball damage is a pretty clear indication of that.
Thus, in unoptimised parties, witches often appear to be significantly more powerful than other spellcasters, purely because these parties/DMs usually never deal with control/SOL/debuff wizards. It's like a wakeup call to Tier 1.
RE new classes being oddly balanced: I don't really understand this argument at all. The CORE classes are not balanced against each other in the first place. None of the new classes fall outside of the balance curve: Wizard is at the top, Monk is at the bottom and everything else falls in-between.
Actually, let's have a (very rough) look at the spread of non-core classes in terms of power level.
TIER 1:
Witch
TIER 2:
Oracle, Summoner
TIER 3:
Magus, Inquisitor, Alchemist
TIER 4:
Ninja, Gunslinger, Cavalier, Samurai
TIER 5:
None?
A rough ranking here, some of these may move around depending on your preference (please keep in mind that damage potential is a poor indicator of overall performance). It is pretty clear even from this rough assessment that the new base classes have a pretty decent spread throughout the tiers.
I only consider classes (or combinations thereof) up to about level 12 for the same reason, with the bulk of play in the 7-10 range
We give out full Hp per level. But its funny when the players in the game complain when I give the monsters full HP (especially when theres a two handed fighter doing 2d6+13 damage a hit)
See, these are the kind of things one needs to take into account when discussing class balance.
If monster HP is maxed, it takes 25-75% more time for the martials to kill someone. The amount of full attacks to kill a mook might go from one to two, and for bosses it might go from 2-3 to 3-5. Meanwhile, save or sucks can still kill anyone in a single action with a little luck.
When playing with maxed HP (which we sometimes do and sometimes don't), it's IMO necessary to give everyone a bonus to saves to to match it. That doesn't solve no-save-you-suck spells but at least balances it somewhat.
The Slumber and Cackle hexes are the only real outliers in terms of power, IMO. I don't like using the word "broken", though.
Evil Eye is pretty powerful. Then you cackle after that so it never ends. :)
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I have two main problems with the Witch. 1: Unlimited Hex's (A full caster with an unlimited resource? What? Wizards dont even get thier first level school ability at will for crying out loud), 2: Hex's such as Slumber/Icy Tomb/Evil Eye being SU instead of SP... Strongly feel SR should apply to those types of abilities.
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How do you rank it with all the classes? IE how do the newer classes (relatively speaking) stack up against the core book classes? And is tier 1 the best or 5 lolActually, let's have a (very rough) look at the spread of non-core classes in terms of power level.
TIER 1:
WitchTIER 2:
Oracle, SummonerTIER 3:
Magus, Inquisitor, AlchemistTIER 4:
Ninja, Gunslinger, Cavalier, SamuraiTIER 5:
None?A rough ranking here, some of these may move around depending on your preference (please keep in mind that damage potential is a poor indicator of overall performance). It is pretty clear even from this rough assessment that the new base classes have a pretty decent spread throughout the tiers.
The tier system is a very rough and approximate way of classifying various classes into power brackets, purely as an aid for DMs to help assess the likelihood of power gaps in their party composition. It is and will never be a fool-proof method of determining if a class is 'better' than any other: that depends entirely on the campaign and circumstances. All it does is give an estimate of how many tools a certain class has for completing a series of encounters, assuming some combat and some non-combat. It also assumes optimisation and no archetypes: obviously a blaster wizard isn't Tier 1 and a zen archer isn't tier 5.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=oe3mbasgps5ladr u5ddfnjsjn5&topic=5293
Here is the link for the system is 3.5. As a quick rundown for the classes in Pathfinder:
Tier 1: Best classes, have "I win' buttons in combat and utility that can completely bypass most encounters or invalidate other classes. In Pathfinder core these are wizards, clerics and druids.
Tier 2: Has "I win" buttons for some combat or non-combat situations, but is more limited in scope than tier 1. Can always contribute meaningfully to situations if built correctly. In core the sorcerer is the only Tier 2 class (alongside summoner and oracle outside of core: see above).
Tier 3: Has one strong ability and the ability to contribute meaningfully in several situations. Tends not to have 'I win' buttons. Considered the most balanced tier to play with. Pathfinder has made a serious effort to put most classes in this category: the ranger, paladin, bard and barbarian all fit in this tier. Most good archetypes for the weaker classes also power up to about this point.
Tier 4: Has one strong ability (such as damage dealing) but cannot contribute outside of his or her niche; or, contributes in most situations but never shines. The core fighter and rogue sit in this tier.
Tier 5: Doesn't even shine in his or her own niche, or has poor focus that limits meaningful contribution. The poor monk (without archetypes) sits alone down here.
Now I'm definitely not advocating this system as a be-all and end-all for 'which class is better'- certainly we've seen some powerful barbarian builds that cause wizards issues, for example, and we could argue forever about where certain classes fit in that spectrum. However, this system is useful as a general guide. Usually, in parties where all members are within 2 tiers of each other, noone will feel over or under-powered. Thus, if your witch (a Tier 1 class) is in a party with a sorceror, cleric and barbarian, it is likely that she'll feel powerful but not horribly overpowered. However, if that same witch is in a party with a fighter, rogue and monk, she will probably feel 'broken'.
Remember guys, 'broken' or 'OP' classes must always be considered in relation to the relative ability for other party members to contribute. Hope this extremely long post helps you, OP.
I don't think that they are overpowered, but they do ignore a lot of the rules with their hexes. I'm alright with the lack of SR, but its the lack of descriptors on them that makes me slighly unhappy with the class. For example, the Death Curse doesn't have the Death descriptor, and Forced Reincarnation can be used on Constructs because its a Will save, despite the fact that there has NEVER been a Save-or-die will saving throw spell in PF without it being mind-affecting.
-Dexion: That's entirely situational. If you only face four opponents in a day, the witch is only using the hexes four times (one for each opponent). The wizard, can choose to use all of his alloted powers at once on one opponenent or spread them around.
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I like it, but between that, Evil Eye, and Misfortune, the character had sort of become a one-trick pony.
I am currently playing a witch & I find I do almost the same thing every fight. There are so many useless hexes so multiple witches end up taking the same hexes.
I can understand why the witch spell list is limited but lack of so many utility spells really catches up when you hit 7th lvl & up. My witch is the primary caster in the group - it is really frustrating to find spellbooks that contain NO spells I can use. Yes I am using Use Magic Device but I only have a +12 so there is a very good chance I will fail using the item especially scrolls. We are not near a town very often so hard to buy more magic items.
Sorry no Prot vs Evil, Minor Globe of Inv, Rope Trick,etc.
While there is nothing wrong with the witch, the class really needs more support:
Patrons - I would love to see more mechanics for Patrons - have them be more like Domains
Hexes - more non-evil ones please!!
Prestige Classes - more please!
I am actually considering retiring my Witch.
Witches with slumber hex is playing the game on easy mode.Unless undead, constructs, oozes, dragons, elves,half-eleves plant monsters etc. Sleep immunity is incredibly common.
Those monsters are rare enough that sleep is not normally an issue, and half-elves are not immune to sleep. They don't get "everything" elves get. They should however get the immunity to the ghoul's paralysis since it calls out elves.
Those monsters are rare enough that sleep is not normally an issue, and half-elves are not immune to sleep. They don't get "everything" elves get. They should however get the immunity to the ghoul's paralysis since it calls out elves.Witches with slumber hex is playing the game on easy mode.Unless undead, constructs, oozes, dragons, elves,half-eleves plant monsters etc. Sleep immunity is incredibly common.
They actually are immune.
Half-Elf Racial Traits
+2 to One Ability Score: Half-elf characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation to represent their varied nature.
Medium: Half-elves are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Normal Speed: Half-elves have a base speed of 30 feet.
Low-Light Vision: Half-elves can see twice as far as humans in conditions of dim light. See Additional Rules.
Adaptability: Half-elves receive Skill Focus as a bonus feat at 1st level.
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities: Half-elves are immune to magic sleep effects and get a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells and effects.
Keen Senses: Half-elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks.
Multitalented: Half-elves choose two favored classes at first level and gain +1 hit point or +1 skill point whenever they take a level in either one of those classes. See Classes for more information about favored classes.
Languages: Half-elves begin play speaking Common and Elven. Half-elves with high Intelligence scores can choose any languages they want (except secret languages, such as Druidic).