Is the Witch broken (Op?)


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

alexd1976 wrote:

All they had to do was say it rendered the target unconscious. It doesn't say that.

I suspect it was deliberate, as a 1st level effect that renders you helpless, insensate, prone AND disarms you seems a bit much.

It probably goes without saying, but your view on this is far from universally accepted.

The 'Sleep' spell says that targets are "sleeping" and talks about conditions under which they "awaken". These words indicate a state of unconsciousness.

If we were to accept the view that the description not using the specific word "unconscious" means that is not the case, then by similar logic we would have to conclude that lack of the word "breathing" means the targets aren't doing that either. Instead, it seems reasonable to conclude that the targets are "sleeping" in the traditional sense... including both unconsciousness and breathing.


The thing is that unconscious has an in game definition defined in the glossary. The sleep spell references this condition but does not inflict it. In game terms, sleeping and unconscious are two different things. You can read the helpless entry to see they are different.

What you should be arguing is that someone sleeping is usually also prone. "Unconscious" doesn't really matter.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:

The thing is that unconscious has an in game definition defined in the glossary. The sleep spell references this condition but does not inflict it. In game terms, sleeping and unconscious are two different things. You can read the helpless entry to see they are different.

What you should be arguing is that someone sleeping is usually also prone. "Unconscious" doesn't really matter.

So... you consider, "someone sleeping is usually also prone" a valid argument. (I agree)

But find, "someone sleeping is usually also unconscious" invalid?

Yes, you are correct that there are specific game rules for "unconscious"... just like there are for "prone". :]


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

People who sleep in the traditional sense are not unconscious. That would be extremely dangerous. Sleep is an altered state of consciousness. Thus you are capable of being woken up, because while your responsiveness to outside stimuli is diminished while asleep, it is not completely lost, as it is while you are unconscious.


The unconscious condition implies you have dropped beneath a hp threshold. Sleep does not inflict that condition.

I think it's reasonable to assume a sleeping character is prone. There is however nothing in the rules to suggest this. Combine this with the fact that the sleep is not natural and it is also logical to assume the sleep doesn't work as normal sleep.

The general rule is that a spell does no more or less than stated in the spell. For instance, it's reasonable to assume a fireball would be loud and bright, but the default fireball does nothing to deafen or blind those within it.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Warning: argument from LARP incoming:

I've played a boffer LARP with sleep effects for many years, and I'll go ahead and say that in that game players tend to collapse into a squat when hit with sleep effects. Technically you should let go of weapons but generally these players pop back up ready to go when awakened. When I'm "slept" I tend to have my hand resting on my hilt, so I can grab it fairly instantly when I "wake up."

Obviously this is still an abstraction so decide for yourself whether you think it's reasonable in your game. I think declaring that every slept person is flat on their back is just as unreasonable as declaring that every such victim remains standing...I'd go situational with it.


keep in mind that a lot of things normally used to boost Save DCs don't apply to Hexes. Hexes are mostly Supernatural Abilities not spells.

So Spell Focus doesn't apply since that only applies to Spells.
While the Elf alternate Racial Dreamspeaker gives a boost to Sleep Effects so that would include the Slumber Hex.

Dark Archive

Deja Vu

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qi6d&page=1?Is-the-Slumber-hex-uniquely-ga me-changing

(my god, was it really two years ago!)

Incidentally, my GMing experiences with Witches comes down to the same problem you have with specialists in general, i.e. they make some balanced encounters easy and other balanced encounters hard, the latter if only by virtue of the fact that the PCs are one-man-down.

Richard


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richard develyn wrote:

Deja Vu

LINK

(my god, was it really two years ago!)

>LINK ADDED


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Having played with a witch for many adventures in PFS, including the entirety of level 10, 11, and a Seeker arc:

Witches can be quite powerful, just like any full caster. In witches' case, the perception can exist that they are OP because of their ability to simply spam slumber hexes at opponents all day, often taking enemies out of the entire fight in one Standard action. And that's a strong ability. I'm not going to deny that.

But, like many classes, its all in how you play it. Witches are still full casters even without the hexes, so they should never be entirely useless. But if a witch decides to coast too heavily on assuming they'll be able to slumber their opponents to kingdom come, they'll be rudely awakened whenever a construct, undead, or any other opponent immune to mind-affecting effects arises. And in PFS (which is a framework virtually immune to GMs intentionally skewing encounters to counter one ability), there were many whole adventures where our party's witch came to regret going so all-in on that one hex. Like all classes, even if they are very strong in one aspect witches still need to be prepared for anything and can still be caught with their proverbial pants down.


I think this is one of those cases where a class option is clearly overpowered compared to other similar class options (whether this class or another). It's pretty clearly, in general, the strongest Hex in the pool (even considerably stronger than some greater Hexes) but can you also imagine how great a 30' standard SoS with infinite uses against an equal number of targets would be as a rogue talent, monk ki power, or rage power, etc?

There aren't many comparable options because this one is, IMHO, out of balance.

Also - just an FYI - this is really an outlier in the full caster disparity argument. To wit - a Hexcrafter Magus can take this as on option at level 4.

I personally don't take this as a witch because I find its power disruptive to the flow of the game. I've had players take it as an option but after a few encounters where the power was clearly unfair for the challenge-level we talked it out player to GM and decided we would keep it toned down (mainly, we negotiated it down to not work on outsiders which were primary antagonists).


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I don't think witches are OP, but I do think they pose a serious threat to single creature combats. When they are faced with several enemies shutting fights down is not as easy. You just can't approach them like you can other classes. The same goes to paladins* with their boss ending smites, and some summoner builds.

You might stand toe to toe with a fighter, but not a paladin in smite mode.

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