New Player wants to make a Dwarven Bard

[Tholomyes]

Ok, so I've been trying to gather together a group for a campaign, and one of the people whose shown interest is more or less completely new to anything 3.x. He's got some of the basics of roleplaying from livestreamed TTRPGs, but that's about it. I felt confident in my ability to walk him through the system, until he threw me for a bit of a curveball. The character concept he's presented to me is a Dwarven Bard, with a kind of Skald feel. The problem is... well, teaching someone the system is a surmountable challenge, but it's much harder to do so with a class/race combination like this, that has so little synergy, they're actually detrimental to each other.

So I've thought about my options. I'm not looking for a high op game, so I'm thinking giving a few more points across the board for stats might mitigate some of this problem, but I'm afraid that this might not help as much as I'd hope, since this will bring the PC up to be more competent, but it could broaden the gap between more experienced players and the newer player, since those with more system mastery can get more bang for their buck with these points.

Another thought I had was to write up a new "Sub-race" for dwarves which keeps the majority of the class, but makes the ability scores less detrimental; not necessarily optimal, but workable. I'm thinking since he wants to be a Skald, I could write up the sub-race as "Ulfen Dwarves" from the Lands of the Linnorm Kings, and I'd swap out the Cha penalty for a Dex penalty, which is less purely detrimental, and I'd possibly swap the Con bonus for a Str bonus, but I'm on the fence. In addition, I'd change the Hardy racial feature to reflect this, providing bonuses to cold, rather than poison, and I'd probably swap out Lorekeeper for Greed. My only hesitation is that I feel this cheapens the Race a bit. Races are defined by what they're good at, but also by what their flaws are. On the other hand, I think the concept is an interesting one, and I don't want to saddle a new player with a build that even with a deal of system-mastery would be hard to salvage.

So what would you recommend for this situation? I'm leaning towards the Sub-race idea, but it doesn't quite sit right with me to just pave over the flaws of a race like that.

[Bearded Ben]

How strongly is he tied to the Bard class? Evangelist Cleric or Sensei Monk would get him some bardic performance, if that's the part of the bard that appeals to him.

[calagnar]

You really don't need to make a special dwarf to make this work. He dose not get level 3 spells until level 7. Long before then he should get a +2 Cha item to let him cast the spells. Other then that I think this build works well.

20 Point buy Dwarf
Str 16
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 12
HP : 12
Trait :
Reactionary : +2 Trait bonus to initiative
+1 more
Feat :
Lingering Performance
Skills : 7 Points per level
Knowledge : History
Knowledge : Nobility
Linguistics
Perception
Perform : Oratory
Perform : Sing
Use Magic Device

Weapon of Choice : battleaxe, heavy pick, or warhammer two handing it.

[the David]

In my experience, new players for Pathfinder are a handfull unless they are really making an effort to get to know the system. You might want to let him play one of the simpler classes first. (In other words: Fighter, or at least anything that doesn't cast spells)

[Ninja in the Rye]

3.5 featured a Divine Bard variant.

[Quandary]

I don't really see how the CHA penalty is such a deal-breaker, it doesn't really affect most Performance benefits,
and it just affects spells with Save DCs, having enough CHA to cast spell levels/get bonus spells is not really an issue,
and you can be Enchanting CHA like normal along the way...
Starting off with a 14 CHA after Racial Mods (16 normal), or even a 12 or 13 CHA is totally reasonable, IMHO.
Heck, cast Eagle's Splendor from scroll/wand when prepping a fight you want to use Save or Sucks in, that fixes your CHA problem.
With Arcane Strike and Bardic buffs, he will be solid combat support as well.
+2 CON/WIS are helping his survivability, along with Dwarven bonus vs. Magic/Poison, and Darkvision.

[Rynjin]

Keep in mind all he ever really NEEDS is 16 Cha, since he's not a full caster. If he plans to stick with mostly the performances (which have no Cha requirement and don't benefit from a high Cha for the most part) and buffing spells (not enemy debuffs, which require saves) he should be just fine.

Also, not sure how good this archetype is, but he might wanna have a gander at the Savage Skald since you said that was the flavor he was going for.

At the very least, it actually outright replaces most of the performances that rely on Cha and replaces them with stuff that is mostly Cha independent. On top of that, magic items can be used to bolster ANY weak stat, and a -2 isn't that hard to counteract for a non-full caster.

Remember, Bardic Performance is only 4+Cha once. Every level he just gets a flat 2 extra. That -2 Cha just means that, effectively, he has 1 less round of Bardic Performance than any other Bard. Not really a big hit to his effectiveness.

[Tholomyes]

I may suggest that, but I don't want to discourage him from playing the character he wants; My philosophy is that roleplaying is high on the priority list, and I know at least personally (especially when just starting out), when I'd make concessions of the type of character I wanted to play, I never really got invested.

Still, it's quite possible this is just one of several ideas he's been kicking around. I don't want to overly penalize him for being new to the system, but if there is a lower-complexity class he's got a thought for, that might work.

[Atarlost]

You have a bonus in one secondary stat and a penalty in another, but your second bonus is in the closest thing a bard has to a dump stat.

This is a race/class combo for an experienced optimizer trying to challenge himself or a "true roleplayer" who wears failing miserably at everything he rolls dice for as a badge of honor. The latter are almost exclusively grognards and the former are generally not new players either.

I think it's better to be told the concept doesn't work up front before he builds a backstory and starts playing.

[Matthew Downie]

I disagree - even a badly optimized bard can provide great buffs and skills. This one has good saves and hit points as well.

[Atarlost]

One should not introduce new players to the game with a pure buffbot. They're dull in combat and with a charisma penalty he's not going to have the skills to make up for it out of combat.

[soupturtle]

A dwarven bard seems fine to me. Most of the things that make a bard useful do not depend on their ability scores at all. Or very little anyway. For a 20 pt buy array, I'd go something like 16, 12, 12+2, 10, 7+2, 16-2. That gives him workable physical stats, and the cha is high enough for a +2 item to cover his entire career.

Strongly recommend your player to get at least weapon focus, power attack and arcane strike, and he'll be a competent melee combatant as well as a perfectly good bard, all while playing the character he envisioned himself. Make sure to offer him either advice or the occasional minor redo on picking spells, as that's a large part of what makes a partial spontaneous caster effective.

Also advice him to have a look at the savage skald archetype. It looks like a pretty even trade in terms of power to me, and gives some very flavorful options.

[Rynjin]

But a pure buffbot is what he wanted to play.

And I fail to see how having a Cha penalty stops him from having skills out of combat.

For one, he doesn't actually have a Cha penalty (in the sense that he has less than 10 Cha), so it's already a moot point, and second there are very few skills based on Cha that actually matter more than 2.5% of the time. He doesn't have an Int penalty so he should have plenty of skills and can quite easily play up the Knowledge monkey role and still do Diplomacy and such just fine.

[KutuluKultist]

An even moderately well built bard is not a pure buffbot.

[Atarlost]

Rynjin wrote:

But a pure buffbot is what he wanted to play.

And I fail to see how having a Cha penalty stops him from having skills out of combat.

For one, he doesn't actually have a Cha penalty (in the sense that he has less than 10 Cha), so it's already a moot point, and second there are very few skills based on Cha that actually matter more than 2.5% of the time. He doesn't have an Int penalty so he should have plenty of skills and can quite easily play up the Knowledge monkey role and still do Diplomacy and such just fine.

He's got a penalty to his casting stat. He's going to have to buy that to 15 or 16 so he winds up with 13 or 14. He has no bonus to his attack stat so he's going to need to buy that to 16 and wish he could afford 17 or 18. Because of either AC or damage issues he'll need to buy the other of strength and dex up to at least 12, likely 13 or 14. There goes intelligence.

A new player does not need a handicap and playing as bad a race/class combo as dwarf bard is like playing 10 point buy in a 15 point buy game.

[Jollyrynie Artist]

Or perhaps he is a human of short stature who has been raised as a dwarf.

With the askance looks he gets from some other dwarfs is the reason he needs to prove himself a proper dwarf by adventuring

[gnomersy]

Why not just run him into the Arcane duelist bard archetype? It works just dandy.
Rallying Cry is pretty skald-ish.

Arcane Strike? Free damage on attacks yes sign me up.

Combat Casting? Yes please bonus to casting when getting into the thick of things.

Free armor proficiency at 10 means he can get away with putting his fav. class bonus into hp which makes him less flimsy.

Free proficiency with dwarven racial weapons gets him a solid weapon choice although maybe not the best options.

Dwarves get great bonuses to saves so he's not suffering too badly without putting points into those.

16 Str, 12 Con, 13 Dex, 8 Wis, 10 Int, 15 Cha Pre-racial turns into 16, 14, 13, 10, 10, 13. Which isn't great but he's got access to spells until he's level 7ish his to hit is okay and damage is solid with the addition of arcane strike, his saves are fine, he still has oodles of skill points and he's got very solid hp/level, his AC is going to be pretty low until he levels up a bit though. He starts at 15 or maybe 16 with a shield. Sadly not having the option of cranking his dex means that he really wants to have heavy armor on but combining the armor expert trait with mithral means that by 5 or so he could be wearing a breastplate plus whatever magic stuff he could afford to get.

He's highly MAD but not impossible or terrible and he still has inspire so he's still a huge boon for the group in a fight.

EDIT: This is not to say that this is the best build choice but you said you weren't running a high op. game and in that case this is a perfectly functional build with no heavy drawbacks later on just a bit of a rough start. But even so 16 AC isn't bad it's just not particularly good.

[Shifty]

I love the fresh perspective and new take on ideas that come with new players. A Dwarven Bard is thematic, and an interesting and fun concept.

Go for it on the Dorf bard I say!

[eakratz]

I'm with those who say let him go for it. I would drop the Wis down to 7 with a point buy, which ends up being a 9 but as a dwarf you get a bonus to saves anyway so it's not so big a deal. A dwarf bard sounds like a lot of fun.

Edit: That's it. Now to build a dwarf bard for Skull and Shackles. I've been waffling but this sounds awesome.

[CountMRVHS]

The bigger issue as I see it is this part:

Quote:

teaching someone the system is a surmountable challenge, but it's much harder to do so with a class/race combination like this, that has so little synergy, they're actually detrimental to each other.

As a GM, you have a perfectly reasonable concern about being able to present a game as rules-heavy as Pathfinder in the best possible light with a minimal amount of headaches to a completely new player who has chosen a somewhat suboptimal PC. Dwarves get a lot of situational bonuses (+1 to hit against this, +4 AC vs that, +somethingorother save vs poisons, or is it spells?). Bards have a significant amount of crunch to worry about too, from spells and all the variables that go along with those to keeping track of the rounds per day of performances. Depending on the player, that amount of detail can be a lot of fun to work with, or it can lead to utter confusion and tedium. Make sure he knows what he's in for in that regard

Be up front about your concerns with the player. If you're worried his PC will be suboptimal compared to your group, show him how - but also remember that some players don't care about winning the DPR contests. This player has an interesting concept, and if he's willing to give it a shot despite some mechanical obstacles (which seem not so large anyway IMHO), green-light it - as long as he's ready to take some responsibility for learning, and as long as *you* are willing to walk this new player through the system.

[Namtarou]

Make him a member of the Ninth Battalion (Faction Guide) ?

[jerrys]

you're the DM, right? why don't you just give him a +2 con instead of a +2con/+2wis/-2cha and call it a day? Will anyone really care?

[Theconiel]

Yes, a dwarf takes a negative modifier to a bard's casting attribute. But casting is only a portion of what a bard does! A dwarf bard can be both a fearsome melee opponent and a fount of knowledge. He can use his bardic performance as well as any other bard, but he will have fewer rounds per day to do it. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that he should play the character.

It's not as if he wanted to play a dwarf sorcerer (other than Empyreal) or oracle. I would certainly consider that a bad idea.

[Skull]

I dont really see the problem. Just like I like dwarven paladins. As long as he enjoys playing what he wants there is no issue.

I see too many "you cannot do well unless your caster stat is 18-20 at level 1" crap.

Let him play what he wants. Dwarves are awesome btw.

[sunbeam]

I don't see any problem. Personally I never depend on bards having to pump the casting stat for dc's. That is a perfectly valid way to do things, but I prefer to make bards that buff themselves and others, and fight in one way or another. Your bardic performances will be minimally affected by this, if at all really.

If he does go Arcane Duelist he will get Medium Armor proficiency at 10th level, and way down the road Heavy Armor Proficiency at 16th. Since he is a dwarf he won't be slowed (anymore than he is already) by any armor.

He won't even have to bother with Mithril, unless he likes the look.

He really doesn't have to go Arcane Duelist either. Any of the Bard archetypes would work.

[P.H. Dungeon]

It will be hard for the other PCs to hide behind a pile of dead bards if you don't have any in the party. Go for it.

[Papa-DRB]

I am running Shattered Star in my home game, and one of the guys is playing a Dwarven Bard, Archeologist archetype. His starting stats were:

S: 9
D: 14
C: 12
I: 14
W: 10
cH: 17

with the dwarf changes to ability scores in. This is a 20 point buy. He is very effective as both bard and a bit of a rogue, and a knowledge monkey.

-- david

[Torger Miltenberger]

As others have noted casting stat isn't as important for bards as it is for full casters. Just make sure to seer him away from spells that have saves and towards buffs and heals and the like and it will be perfectly playable with a charisma as low as 12.

So I wouldn't bother making a homebrew race. The vanilla dwarf can get the job done just fine.

- Torger

P.S. I'm now tempted to look into making a dwarven dervish dancer (bard achetype). Dervish dancer with an axe!

[Eryx_UK]

Sounds to me like it is the character he wants to play, so I say let him. He'll soon see whether it works for him or not. if not, let him retire it and see what he comes up with.

[Morgen]

Absolutely nothing wrong with a Dwarven Bard. Sounds like a fun character, hope they enjoy playing Pathfinder. :)

[Xuttah]

May I suggest that you ask the player to start with a level of fighter for first level, just to get the hang of things, then to multiclass into bard or allow a PFS-style rebuild at second level? First level goes by fast, so it's not a.huge sacrifice.

[Pan]

Of all caster classes Bard is the most workable with a penalty stat. This is totally doable and Id say it even should be encouraged because bard isn't that difficult a class to play.

Tell us about the other players and we can even help pin point a decent build.

[Petty Alchemy]

Atarlost wrote:

One should not introduce new players to the game with a pure buffbot. They're dull in combat and with a charisma penalty he's not going to have the skills to make up for it out of combat.

Oh nooo, a -1 penalty to social skills relative to most other characters, or -2 relative to races with a charisma bonus. What a truuuuly insurmountable challenge!

Being a Bard without a max'd Charisma is easy, as others have said you can just use spells that don't rely on saves. He's still an excellent buffer, and he's tough enough to stand on the front lines.

I disagree that buffing is boring, though YMMV. I consider healing boring, but when I cast Haste and see 3 extra attacks per round doing damage, that's basically my damage. I can take some joy from that.

I agree with either Arcane Duelist arch, or vanilla bard.

[gnomersy]

sunbeam wrote:

I don't see any problem. Personally I never depend on bards having to pump the casting stat for dc's. That is a perfectly valid way to do things, but I prefer to make bards that buff themselves and others, and fight in one way or another. Your bardic performances will be minimally affected by this, if at all really.

If he does go Arcane Duelist he will get Medium Armor proficiency at 10th level, and way down the road Heavy Armor Proficiency at 16th. Since he is a dwarf he won't be slowed (anymore than he is already) by any armor.

He won't even have to bother with Mithril, unless he likes the look.

He really doesn't have to go Arcane Duelist either. Any of the Bard archetypes would work.

The real reason for Mithril isn't because he doesn't get the proficiency eventually but because when he has it the armor is downgraded a weight tier for all purposes except proficiency, as a result that means that his fullplate would be medium or his breastplate would be light armor and so if he got the full plate at 10+ or the breastplate before 10 he could cast in it without penalty(and if the check penalty is 0 he doesn't take any minuses to hit etc.) and since the build I made wasn't maxing out dex it could help him eek out a little extra AC at a flat cost albeit a fairly high one.

[Chymist]

A dwarf may not be the optimal race for a bard, but the role playing aspect is fun. Picture him as an apprentice in the mines and the boss constantly on his case for pounding out songs with his pick. Give him performance(percussion) and a hammer (or two) and let the fun begin.

[Fergie]

jerrys wrote:

you're the DM, right? why don't you just give him a +2 con instead of a +2con/+2wis/-2cha and call it a day? Will anyone really care?

I have to second this idea. Dwarf bard is a really cool character concept (same with dwarf paladin, sorcerer, oracle etc.) and shouldn't be substandard due to restrictive race rules. If you had experienced players trying to exploit the system, I would obey the race rules to the letter, but for a new player, let them make what they want without arbitrary penalties.

Also, as experienced gamers, you should make an effort to help the player come up with a build that won't seem lame once the player understands the rules better. Figure out what the player wants to do, and help them come up with the stats that will let them do that. Some concepts will be woefully underpowered (gnome monk) so you either need to bend the rules to make it happen, or tell the player that they will struggle to contribute in a meaningful way.

Again, a starting player is the perfect opportunity to bend the rules so they can enjoy the game more.

[DrDeth]

jerrys wrote:

you're the DM, right? why don't you just give him a +2 con instead of a +2con/+2wis/-2cha and call it a day? Will anyone really care?

Right, there's even a rare 3.5 race called a "Dream dwarf".

But anyway, the class is perfectly playable with a CHA penalty. I have a great Dw Paladin- who now has a 17 CHA (found a +2 cha item).

And, you can even perfectly legally "drop" a +2 CHA item early, why not?

[eakratz]

Chymist wrote:

A dwarf may not be the optimal race for a bard, but the role playing aspect is fun. Picture him as an apprentice in the mines and the boss constantly on his case for pounding out songs with his pick. Give him performance(percussion) and a hammer (or two) and let the fun begin.

I've been workin' in a coal mine...