TWF whip knife master rogue

[Stalarious]

Ok so this toon has been running around my head for 2 weeks now. A TWF knife master(rogue archetype) he would use one knife and a whip. Using the whip he trips them and if successful stabs the crap outta them since they have been tripped they are denied there dex meaning they can take backstab dam straight to the face! And once I get greater trip them falling incurs attacks of opportunity which means more backstabs from me.

Tell me am i on the right track or am i far off base on my understanding please cause i cant get this idea out of my head!

[Stalarious]

I guess some info would be helpful LOL. It would be a 20 point buy system I am thinking of going human so the stat would go

STR,CON,INT,DEX,CHA,WIS with the racial bonus going into STR.

My human feat was going to get me exoctic weap prof whip and my first lvl feat going into TWF. Whip would go in primary hand and dagger in off hand.

3 lvl feat goes into improved trip so i wont get AOO.

So are there people out there that know if this works or if i am missing a few brick in my house so to speak.

[Karaethon]

Stalarious wrote:

Ok so this toon has been running around my head for 2 weeks now. A TWF knife master(rogue archetype) he would use one knife and a whip. Using the whip he trips them and if successful stabs the crap outta them since they have been tripped they are denied there dex meaning they can take backstab dam straight to the face! And once I get greater trip them falling incurs attacks of opportunity which means more backstabs from me.

Tell me am i on the right track or am i far off base on my understanding please cause i cant get this idea out of my head!

Being prone doesn't deny dex bonus to AC, it just gives -4 to AC so no sneak attack.

Also without the feat Whip Mastery attacking with a whip provokes attacks of oppotunity.

[Stalarious]

So i am off base i thought prone makes you defensless so you could cu du grace which if you could do that then why not snk atk or am i screwing up my thoughts again im sleep deprived at the moment.

[Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan]

PRD wrote:

Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Being Prone does exactly what it says. No defenseless, no denied DEX, no flatfooted.

[Stalarious]

Sad face! And here I thought it would be a awesome build idea

[Kazaan]

Furthermore, AoO "preempts" the triggering event so the AoO would occur "before" the target falls prone, thus you aren't attacking them with the prone penalty in the first place.

[Stalarious]

man the more i hear from you guys the more depressed i get i thought the idea of a thief making people fall and then coming in witht the knife was freaking awesome.

O well guess it is just meant to be a dream.

[Kazaan]

It's pretty hard to make someone flat-footed mid-combat. One method I know of is Shatter Defenses.

PRD wrote:

Shatter Defenses (Combat)

Your skill with your chosen weapon leaves opponents unable to defend themselves if you strike them when their defenses are already compromised.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, base attack bonus +6, proficiency with weapon.
Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.

This requires the target to be shaken, frightened, or panicked first, then you hit them and BAM, they're flat-footed to all further attacks from you for the rest of the round. So, how do you get a target shaken, etc. reliably?

PRD wrote:

Enforcer (Combat)

You are skilled at causing fear in those you brutalize.
Prerequisite: Intimidate 1 rank.
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

Non-lethal damage lets you Intimidate for free and make them shaken (and possibly frightened). So, if you're already next to them, first attack will flat-foot them with a successful intimidate, then all subsequent iteratives get sneak attack tacked on (since they're flat-footed). Very nice when coupled with a Merciful Sap or Unarmed Strike w/ Merciful AoMF. More better if you use a bludgeoning non-lethal weapon (ie. Sap, Unarmed Strike) and have the Sap Adept/Master feats.

[Jimbo Juggins]

It will take you about 4 levels to be able to do the attack you want.

Human Rogue

1st:
Feat - Enforcer
Feat -Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip)
2nd:
Rogue Talent - Weapon Training (Whip) (same as Weapon Focus)
3rd:
Feat - Whip Mastery
4th:
Rogue Talent - Combat Trick - Two-Weapon Fighting

As far as the Attacks of Opportunity go, don't let them phase you too much. You opponent has to in an adjacent square, or have a reach weapon, or have a ready, ranged weapon. If you are using the whip's Reach correctly, you should never be in an adjacent square when you do the whip attack, and you shouldn't try a whip attack against an archer. Switch weapons and rush him instead. But once you get your opponent shaken or prone, then you move in for the double whip and dagger attack, with a -2 (shaken) or -4 (prone) to your target's AC, and similar neg. modifier to any retalitory attackes he might make AFTER you have already made the successful whip attack, and avoided the mandatory AoO by not being close enough to receive it.

RULE 1: Don't whip someone who is standing next to you. Move way (5 ft step), and then whip them.

You will need to put some Skill ranks into Intimidate to make this really effective. If you put 2 ranks per level, by the time you reach 4th level, you should have

Intimidate = 8 ranks + 3 class + ? Trait + ? CHA = 11+

Intimidating a lion would be a DC 17 = 10 + 6 HD + 1 WIS die roll. If you roll a 6 or better, the lion is shaken, and your next attempt to hit wil be easier. If you roll a crit. 20 to hit, the lion is frightened and tries to runs away.

If you want to trip the lion, who has a CMD of 26, you will need to get Weapon Finesse as a Feat or Finesse Rogue as a Rogue Talent, hope you have a good DEX bonus (you are a rogue, right?), and a high BAB. A 5th level DEX 17 Rogue with Weapon Finesse has a +3 BAB, with a +3 DEX mod., and rolls with a total to hit bonus of +6. A crit. 20 to hit would take him down, or an 18+ if he was already shaken.

Sounds doable, especially after level 5, and if you have some help, they can do the follow up attack instead of you.

So, while the "whip'em, trip'em, and stab'em in the back" scenario doesn't quite work out, you can come pretty close, as long as you don't come "too close".

[Shadoven]

You cannot put more ranks in a skill than you have hitdice. Other than that, the idea sounds really cool!

[Stalarious]

Dude guys your awesome! Its not what i was imagining but those tips make me happy enough to still attempt the build! I will have to put somthing together.

But since intimadate is on the table now I wonder if I shoudl play a Half-orc and get the feat that adds STR and CHA into inimidate and build him that way?

Suggestions?

[blackbloodtroll]

Toon?

[Dekalinder]

Quote:

A crit. 20 to hit would take him down, or an 18+ if he was already shaken.

If that's your standard of doable (15% chance of success) i think you need to rethink your standard.

To recap you idea, you first need competency with wip, focus for shatter defense, then wip mastery and then 2WF, plus enforcer. 6 Feat, even if human, you can't get before level 5. Then, to make enforcer work you need to deal nonlethal damage, so you can't use trip attack since it doesn't deal damage. So, even if you hit with the whip and you succed on the intimidate roll, you are still making a standard attack with a knife with -2 for 2WF and no bonus of any kind. And you don't even have yet weapon finess. Good luck with that.

[Hecknoshow]

This build is kinda interesting. I wouldn't go for a knife master though as it seems to be built more around the whip rather than the blade. Might also think of going for a str based rogue instead of a dex based one, helps cut down on feat requirements.

The Thug archetype might be something worth looking at, though I'd discuss how Enforcer and Frightening interact with your GM before playing. Cuts down on arguments at the table.

Jimbo Juggins wrote:

As far as the Attacks of Opportunity go, don't let them phase you too much. You opponent has to in an adjacent square, or have a reach weapon, or have a ready, ranged weapon.

You can't make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon.

[Silent Saturn]

Stalarious wrote:

Dude guys your awesome! Its not what i was imagining but those tips make me happy enough to still attempt the build! I will have to put somthing together.

But since intimadate is on the table now I wonder if I shoudl play a Half-orc and get the feat that adds STR and CHA into inimidate and build him that way?

Suggestions?

If you go Half-Orc, take the Beastmaster alternate racial trait (from the APG). That way you treat whips as a martial weapon. Since you'll be needing so many feats anyway, take a single level in Fighter for an extra feat and free whip proficiency.

Shatter Defenses, the key to this whole build, requires a BAB of +6. The earliest you'll be able to sneak attack foes by intimidating them is level 7, and that requires a few more levels in Fighter. If you start with two levels of Fighter, you can have Whip Mastery at level 2. Still, making enemies shaken is pretty good, and it neatly cancels out the attack penalties from TWF.

[Stalarious]

OK this is sounding more and more interesting the more you guys talk and help me out.

@blackbloodtroll
I have alot of friends that play MMO's so the term toon rubbed off on me when i talk about my characters. LOL horrible i know.

For the sake of simiplicity i was not going to go for a Prestige class since i cant think of one that would really help the overall concept.(aside from shadowdancer or other iconic rogue favored prestige classes).
But if you were going to build a Str built rogue with this build in mind is there one you guys may shoot for that has benifits that off set this nicely that i just dont see(or understand) why they fit nicely?

[TimrehIX]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Toon?

Toon is short for cartoon. Its a term for a cartoon likre figure you control in most MMOs. It is not 100% accurate in table top play but it basicaly means Character.

[Stalarious]

So to let you guys know i built him, Used the vanilla humans though and i gotta say he is fun to run you should have seen the look of frustration when I went double whip and went behind and to the side of the fighter and tripped everything he was fighting.

O it was *whispers* priceless! LOL it wasnt my original idea but because of the tips and ideas you guys gave me its turned into a very cool character ;) almost said toon there for a second had to pause my typing to stop myself.

[blackbloodtroll]

I should EV train my high IV Human as a Physical Sweeper, for my Sandstorm party.

[Stalarious]

Well funny thing was he house ruled that if i hit but could beat the CMD but was within 5 and had someone next to me they could "help" and give me a boost but they had to have a readied action to do so. Havent really used it yet but itll be fun when i do!

[Alexander Augunas]

Some things to remember:

1) Your build is very feat-intensive. It requires Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Enforcer, and Two-Weapon Fighting. You might even want to invest into some of the whip-based feats, but it isn't required.

2) Shatter Defenses requires a Base Attack Bonus of +6. If you go straight Rogue, you will not qualify for the feat until 8th level.

Looking at the list of feats you will definitely need:

Weapon Focus (Whip)
Enforcer
Two-Weapon Fighting
Dazzing Display
Shatter Defenses
Whip Mastery

Whether or not you want to do this is up to you, but there is an archetype you might want to consider: the Rake.

Rake Rogue wrote:

Bravado’s Blade (Ex): When a rake hits an opponent and deals sneak attack damage, she can forgo 1d6 points of that damage and make a free Intimidate check to demoralize the foe. For every additional 1d6 points of sneak attack damage she forgoes, she receives a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. This ability replaces trapfinding.

Rake’s Smile (Ex):At 3rd level, a rake gains a +1 morale bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks. This bonus increases by +1 for every 3 levels beyond 3rd. This ability replaces trap sense.

The Rake will let you make super charged demoralize attempts at the cost of sneak attack damage. Bravado's Blade will be very helpful against enemies that you can either A) attack first during a surprise round or B) flank.

Another option is to take the Thug archetype:

Thug Rogue wrote:

Frightening (Ex)" Whenever a thug successfully uses Intimidate to demoralize a creature, the duration of the shaken condition is increased by 1 round. In addition, if the target is shaken for 4 or more rounds, the thug can instead decide to make the target frightened for 1 round. This ability replaces trapfinding.

Brutal Beating (Ex): At 3rd level, whenever a thug deals sneak attack damage, she can choose to forgo 1d6 points of sneak attack damage to make the target sickened for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 her rogue level. This ability does not stack with itself—only the most recent duration applies. This ability replaces trap sense.

Thug combos very well with Enforcer and Brutal Beating will allow you to inflict two negative conditions onto your enemies; sickened and shakened, for a total of –4 against most things. Unlike the Rake, it will require that you take the Enforcer feat, however. Considering that you use a whip, though, its hardly a weakness and it will allow you to go bananas with frightened or shaken or whatever.

My final suggestion: Go Hobgoblin if your GM allows you to. They get tons of wicked whip-based demoralizing tricks, such as:

Demoralizing Lash
Taskmaster
Terrorizing Display (requires Taskmaster)

Other tricks you might want to pursue include:
Improved Whip Mastery
Combat Expertise & Tripping abilities (the whip is a trip weapon)
Combat Reflexes
Boar Style Feats

Hope this helps!