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Which is fine. But you need to do this in part because you upped the power level of every other class that wears armor in 9 skills.
Actually, I made those changes before removing ACP.
I actually have no issue with these changes conceptually (Except maybe the players choice on skills) but you need to look at it in the context of the other classes.
Fighters are supposed to be the most customizable class. They're supposed to represent many different types of warriors. How come all of them have very different feats, but the exactly same skills?
I even added Perception and Heal because not only I think those should've been Fighter class skills from the very beginning, but also because they're false option. One is too good to ignore, the other is not very good. So all Fighters would pick Perception anyway, making the "choose 2 class skills" effectively "choose a 1 class skill".Pathfinder was in many ways an attempt to bump the core classes up to the level of power creep classes that had come out at the end of 3.5. When you remove ACP for everyone, that is a big change, and one I don't really agree with.
See my reasons why I don't like ACP in my previous post. Whether you agree or not is irrelevant, though
You are also functionally giving fighters all good saves, which steps on other classes toes a bit...
Who?
Monks? Everything steps on Monk's toes!
And I buffed them as well, although I'm not sure it worked... I was thinking of simply adding a Ki/Grit mechanic to Fighters, giving them all good saves instead of Bravery and turning Monks into a Fighter archetype.
Paladins? They have a bunch of unique stuff too, best saves ever, self healing, spells.... No Fighter will step on their toes.
Notice that I didn't boost Fighter's damage, only their options. So Fighters won't overshadow Paladins anymore than they already did. Which is to say, not at all.
The question is what is the power level we are seeking, how do we measure it, and what needs to change to get there.
IMHO, Barbarian, Bard, Inquisitor, Magus, Paladin and Ranger are okay for me.
Excel at their job, but are versatile enough to be consistently truly useful in different situations.If we don't set that power level, we are just going to be playing a leap frog game of power creep until CR levels are meaningless.
Which has already been reported to be the case in some people's games....
That's a huge exaggeration, IMHO.
And many of those people think Paladins are OP because they have good saves and LoH or that Gunslingers are unstoppable because they can shoot things...
A frontliner who can actually survive the front-lines?! BLASPHEMY!!! A striker who can deal damage?! OMGWTFBBQ, WHAT IS PAIZO THINKING??!!
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Ranger level = Druid level for Animal Companion (Although this one didn't come into play so far because none of my players is playing a Ranger).This is pretty cool, if minor. It's really only a difference of 1 HD in most cases. :P
I was more concerned with the pitiful selection. I just let my Rangers pick any of the valid Druid companions. Boon Companion already fixes the level issue IMO if they choose to remedy it.
Rangers don't need major buffs, IMO... I'd give them the Trapper archetype for free and scaling senses as an alternate Hunter's Bond (low-light vision at 2nd level, darkvision at 6th, scent at 10th level, blindsense at 14th level and blindsight at 18th), but I'm not sure how these senses balance out. They don't seem too much for the levels where they are acquired, but I can't be sure... So I'm still crunching that.
This is a suggestion I could get behind. I think having fighters be able to apply feats known to other weapons makes a lot of sense. Hell, they could just add a fighter feat that says exactly that.Free Martial Versatility at the levels it would apply, upgrading to Mastery for each at 16 might be a good tradeoff.
Kills another small bird with that particular stone (the Fighters reliance on a single weapon).
I like the sound of that.
For now I let them take the Lore Warden archetype and add Int to damage rolls starting at 3rd level.mmm, lore warden´s DPR is the same than a vanilla fighter.(or even higher at 13th level), consider to add the int mod to something else, like AC or will save.
Not really... Characters don't get 1.5x Int for two-handling weapons. They also don't get extra skill points (just 4 per level just like very other Fighter) because the extra focus on Int already covers that.
But you may be right. I couldn't playtest this because no one bothered to make a Lore Warden... :(
I meant, normal Lore warded do not suffer in the DPR deparment, I feel there is not need to change that.
Oh, I know. I was just tinkering around to see if I could make Int-based Fighters viable (Not even Lore Warden benefit much from Int), and they only add Int to damage rolls, anyway... They still need Weapon Finesse.
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Do I need to a build to show that a class has better saves, more skill points, access to spells, better saves and/or better list of class skills? Reading the class description should suffice in this case.Yes.
Monks have all high saves, but that doesn't mean a given monk build is going to have higher saves than another build that invests in things that boost saves.
That's mostly a problem with Monks, because in their specific case, they have to spend a lot of money in something other classes pay relatively little: weapon enhancements. And it also costs them a item slot. That's not the case for Barbarians, Paladins or Rangers. They spend their gold in pretty much the same stuff a Fighter does.
Even then, Monks more often than not have better saves than most other classes, except Paladins (but being 2nd best in not all that bad in this case)
It isn't just gold. Iron Will for example, is something you are more likely to invest in if you have feats to spare. Same with toughness if you decide to skimp a bit on Con since you have a good fort save.
Every choice is a choice not made. That is the point of the build. You say classes lack options without actually looking at the choices that need to be made to have options.
The classes where this is most true are the ones that have the most glaring weaknesses that can be exploited.
Rangers don't need major buffs, IMO... I'd give them the Trapper archetype for free and scaling senses as an alternate Hunter's Bond (low-light vision at 2nd level, darkvision at 6th, scent at 10th level, blindsense at 14th level and blindsight at 18th), but I'm not sure how these senses balance out. They don't seem too much for the levels where they are acquired, but I can't be sure... So I'm still crunching that.
Oh I wasn't criticizing. Just noting that though that sounds like some huge buff it's really not. Even without any buffs I'd still play a Ranger or a Paladin in your games, though now I might consider running a Fighter for some things. :P
Fighters are supposed to be the most customizable class. They're supposed to represent many different types of warriors. How come all of them have very different feats, but the exactly same skills?
I even added Perception and Heal because not only I think those should've been Fighter class skills from the very beginning, but also because they're false option. One is too good to ignore, the other is not very good. So all Fighters would pick Perception anyway, making the "choose 2 class skills" effectively "choose a 1 class skill".
Did you know you can put points into a skill even if it isn't a class skill? You miss out on a +3 bonus. Which, as you get higher up in level matters less.
There are also traits which add skills as class skills. I would rather players utilize those traits to gain a skill as a class skill, than change the class overall.
Watch this badass 3rd level synthesist.
this is a sample of some of the stuff a fighter or other noncaster SHOULD be doing at 3rd level but for some reason can't. demonstrated by Karasu the 3rd level Synthesist.
he slaughters a horde of CR 1/2 Kappas with one toss of his blade and solos a CR 5 boss in armed combat.
It isn't just gold. Iron Will for example, is something you are more likely to invest in if you have feats to spare. Same with toughness if you decide to skimp a bit on Con since you have a good fort save.
And yet, even Mr.Monk Madness still have better will saves than Fighter. Hell, even a Sorcerer with Wis 7 has better Will save than a Fighter with Wis 12 and Iron Will.
Monks have a bunch of problems, but Will save is not one of them.I don't mind Fighters getting all good saves, that only means they get to do their job without the party worrying they'll be dominated or some such.
Every choice is a choice not made. That is the point of the build. You say classes lack options without actually looking at the choices that need to be made to have options.
Now, now... Don't tell I don't look at options. If anything, it's Fighter fanboys who claim Fighters can do anything, if only they invest in the right feat/trait/attribute, which ends up being a lot more Schrondigger than even a Wizard focused on divination!
Oh I wasn't criticizing. Just noting that though that sounds like some huge buff it's really not. Even without any buffs I'd still play a Ranger or a Paladin in your games, though now I might consider running a Fighter for some things. :P
Oh, I agree that it's not a huge buff. I'm just saying Ranger just need some minor tweaks and they'll be perfectly balanced IMO.
I see the Trapper archetype as very Ranger-ish. It does step on Rogues' toes, but what doesn't? I'm still not sure how to fix Rogues, though, just a few ideas floating around.Now I want to play a fighter in one of Lemmy's games. All of those changes sound awesome.
Glad you like it.Feel free to steal all those ideas! When it comes to houserule or homebrew, I steal everything I can carry! And if it's not nailed down to the ground, I count that as "stuff I can carry"!
Sadly, the 3 Fighter players I had in 2 different groups had to stop playing with us... :(Maybe Fighters are underpowered because they're cursed...
Did you know you can put points into a skill even if it isn't a class skill? You miss out on a +3 bonus. Which, as you get higher up in level matters less.
There are also traits which add skills as class skills. I would rather players utilize those traits to gain a skill as a class skill, than change the class overall.
What??? You can invest in skills other than class skills? There are traits for boosting skills?
You don't say...
"There is a feat/trait for that" is only a balancing factor if they are not available to everyone.
Anything can be great at anything with enough resources, sir. I'd rather Fighters didn't have to invest so much more than every other class and only get to be mediocre in return.
Mr.Fighty McFighter spends 2 traits and now he has a somewhat less limited list of class skills... Meanwhile, Rangers humiliate Fighters in skills with just their skill list (IIRC, the only Fighter class skill that is noa Ranger class skill is Knowledge(Engineering), which is not exactly a must-have skill), so they use those same traits to boost their saves, initiative, caster level, damage or whatever... And the gap between classes grows larger.
Barbarians still have better class skills and more skill points per level.
Paladins are equally limited in skill points, but at least they get Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills, and they don't need help with saves, so they too can use their traits to get an advantage, rather than covering up a weakness that shouldn't be there in the first place!
You'd think that a guy with no reliance on magic would be smart enough to try an learn all sorts of mundane skills, but no... They get less skill points than the hippie who can turn into a bear and channel the power of gods!
I've heard arguments saying that "Fighters should be weak, because realistically, mundane would never be able to compete with magic"
Ignoring the fact that realism shouldn't be more important than having fun with your chosen class, and that they use the words "realistically" and "magic" in the same sentence, I could almost see their point, now that I think about it...
Fighters should suck, but not because that'd be "realistic", that's a stupid argument... No, they should suck because if you're stupid enough to not use magic and not bother to learn mundane skills either, then you deserve to suck.
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Watch this badass 3rd level synthesist.
this is a sample of some of the stuff a fighter or other noncaster SHOULD be doing at 3rd level but for some reason can't. demonstrated by Karasu the 3rd level Synthesist.
he slaughters a horde of CR 1/2 Kappas with one toss of his blade and solos a CR 5 boss in armed combat.
Well, I thanks the Deves for no agreeing with you.Watch this badass 3rd level synthesist.
this is a sample of some of the stuff a fighter or other noncaster SHOULD be doing at 3rd level but for some reason can't. demonstrated by Karasu the Synthesist.
the kappas were all CR 1/2 and the boss was CR 5. these are things a fighter or other noncaster SHOULD be capable of.
and these are just classic things that don't even border into Wuxia.
the power armor is just a synthesist thing. but ignoring the transformation, they should be capable of the other stuff.
such as killing a line of 20 kappas by throwing your sword like a boomerang or taking on a CR 5 boss with merely the sword that came back to you after being boomeranged to kill 20 CR 1/2 Kappas.
I owe you one.Watch this badass 3rd level synthesist.
this is a sample of some of the stuff a fighter or other noncaster SHOULD be doing at 3rd level but for some reason can't. demonstrated by Karasu the 3rd level Synthesist.
he slaughters a horde of CR 1/2 Kappas with one toss of his blade and solos a CR 5 boss in armed combat.
it's merely my default sample of things a third level martial character should be able to do.
but your stuff is another good sample. lots of movement, feats of speed, and overall shuffling back and forth.
It is not my intention to sound rude, but It seems like you do not understand the concept of CR.
such as killing a line of 20 kappas by throwing your sword like a boomerang or taking on a CR 5 boss with merely the sword that came back to you after being boomeranged to kill 20 CR 1/2 Kappas.
a CR 3 foe should generally be quickly disposed of by a single 3rd level character. a CR5 foe would be like a miniboss to a lone level 3 PC.
CR 1/2 should die faster than rabbits breed against a 3rd level character.
EDIT: But it really does not matter, I always have beena big fan of anime (since I was 6 year old) but I am really glad D&D/PF is not as you envisioned it.
Surely there are other RPG to suit your style.
the problem with all of those RPGs, is finding a group to play them with.
Lumiere, revisit this section of the rules on how CR is supposed to work:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html
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A level 3 character vs a CR 3 monster should be a pretty even fight.
A level 3 character vs 6 CR 1/2 monster should be a pretty even fight.
A level 3 character vs a CR 5 monster should be a challengem but one they should be able to survive if the character is built well and the player knows what they are doing.
A level 3 character vs a CT 6 monster should probably be a character death.
Not according to the CR system.
A CR 3 foe is supposed to be a roughly 'normal' encounter for a group of 3 3rd level PCs, Lumiere, intended to drain about 20% of their renewable resources and have a chance of killing someone if something goes wrong.
4 CR 1/2 foes are the same. 20 CR 1/2 foes is a hopelessly difficult encounter for an entire party of 3rd level PCs.
No, that is not the definition of CR.It is not my intention to sound rude, but It seems like you do not understand the concept of CR.
such as killing a line of 20 kappas by throwing your sword like a boomerang or taking on a CR 5 boss with merely the sword that came back to you after being boomeranged to kill 20 CR 1/2 Kappas.
a CR 3 foe should generally be quickly disposed of by a single 3rd level character. a CR5 foe would be like a miniboss to a lone level 3 PC.
appearantly, my views are skewed by the level 10+ rocket tag posted on these forums.
A level 3 character vs a CR 3 monster should be a pretty even fight.
A level 3 character vs 6 CR 1/2 monster should be a pretty even fight.
A level 3 character vs a CR 5 monster should be a challenge but one they should be able to survive if the character is built well and the player knows what they are doing.
A level 3 character vs a CT 6 monster should probably be a character death
how even is a fight when winning initiative and getting the first full attack is the difference between life and death?
how even is a fight when winning initiative and getting the first full attack is the difference between life and death?
It's not unless there's something wrong going on. o.o
how even is a fight when winning initiative and getting the first full attack is the difference between life and death?It's not unless there's something wrong going on. o.o
it's usually not even due to the intense amount of rocket tag. making the first full attack could guarantee victory while being hit by your opponents first full attack could spell death for you.
there are some niche builds that can survive to be downed by a second full attack, but it usually means that full attack=death. 2 notable examples of builds that are downed on the second full attack are the invulnerable rager barbarian and the half orc scarred witch doctor.
how even is a fight when winning initiative and getting the first full attack is the difference between life and death?It's not unless there's something wrong going on. o.oit's usually not even due to the intense amount of rocket tag. making the first full attack could guarantee victory while being hit by your opponents first full attack could spell death for you.
there are some niche builds that can survive to be downed by a second full attack, but it usually means that full attack=death.
Usually the one winning initiative does not get the first full-attack unless they have an ability such as pounce.
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how even is a fight when winning initiative and getting the first full attack is the difference between life and death?It's not unless there's something wrong going on. o.oit's usually not even due to the intense amount of rocket tag. making the first full attack could guarantee victory while being hit by your opponents first full attack could spell death for you.
there are some niche builds that can survive to be downed by a second full attack, but it usually means that full attack=death. 2 notable examples of builds that are downed on the second full attack are the invulnerable rager barbarian and the half orc scarred witch doctor.
Not in my games and we're not scared of pushing the system to its limits. Part of love for the Paladin for example stems from its ability to shrug huge amounts of punishment. Survival is something I prize.
If you're following the rules the game tends to set up pretty well. Can you give me an example of rocket tag? Because honestly a battle like this is similar to the crazy s&~# my group takes on at high levels, and we do it on 15 point buy and don't use hero points.
High level combat is NOT like low level combat. It is a tactical game of dropping nukes and bio-weapons on your enemies while shielding yourself with your star-wars program and hazmat teams. A high level encounter where enemies are using their full resources is a terrifying ordeal. A 20th level party vs a Solar for example is akin to the freakin' Ragnarok on the scale of extreme terror that it would incite in normal humans, as on this scale you are literally hurling meteors at people, calling upon earth shattering storms, and cracking the land and sundering buildings, while the legions of heaven and hell descend or crawl up from their realms to join the battle.
For example...
CR 20 encounter = 307,200 XP
Succubus x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Shadow Demon x 4 (CR 7) = 12,800 XP
Nabasu x 6 (CR 8) = 28,800 XP
Glabrezu x 2 (CR 13) = 51,200 XP
Marilith x 1 (CR 17) = 102,400 XP
Vrock x 15 (CR 9) = 96,000 XP
Dretch x 5 (CR 2) = 3,000 XP
This is a demon horde led by a Marilith, who commands their fiendish legions. The entire horde can greater teleport at will, and works together. Most of them can summon more demons as spell-like abilities. Here is a quick rundown of the types of things these demons might do.
Marilith uses telekinesis at range to hurl objects or even other demons at the party, or uses it to grapple an enemy magician. If she sees an opening, she will get in and attack an opponent with her tail and constrict them. Anyone who is constricted must make a DC 25 fortitude save or fall unconscious for 1d8 rounds. At this point she moves on to the next foe, as one of the succubi coup de grace the unconscious character with a caster level 12 vampiric touch, likely killing the victim and buffing the succubus to hell and back with temporary HP. Blade barrier controls the battlefield and makes moving around a pain for those without teleportation.
The Nebasu wander around spamming enervation at targets, especially those in heavy armor, inflicting 1d4 negative levels with each ray that hits, no save. There are 6 of them, so that's a potential for 6-24 negative levels. Every negative level inflicts a -1 penalty to all saving throws. When they are out of rays, they will spam telekinesis to hurl objects at the party, or force DC 19 will saves or be hurled about like a rag doll.
The shadow demons seep through the floor and attack anyone who is on land using their blind-fight feat to ignore the miss %, and since they have cover you can't make AoOs against them, and retaliating against them is something of a pain, since you can't ready a full-attack against them. Your best bet is to take to the air. Each shadow demon of course attempts to summon another shadow demon with a 50% success rate, so 4 demons becomes 6 more than likely. They too can also stand back and spam telekinesis.
The succubi screech about the battlefield charm-bombing enemies and taking pot-shots at downed foes with vampiric touch when they're down. Of course, they all attempt to summon Babau demons with a 50% chance, so that adds another 2 acid-coated demons into the mix as cannon fodder. They also will not hesitate to dominate animal companions, mounts, and similar creatures. They're not difficult to kill, but they will generally spread out and distract the party, and can turn ethereal at-will, allowing them very good tactics. If desired, they can fly around and drop nets on the party to entangle them, as they can comfortably carry plenty of them and still greater teleport around the field.
The vrocks all begin a dance of ruin, spreading out into groups of 4 vrocks for maximum effectiveness. Every 3rd round, each group unleashes a 20d6 blast of lightning in a 100 ft. radius, which all of the demons are immune to. So if you don't break up or crowd control the vrocks, you will be eating up to 4 instances of 20d6 electricity damage, which is an average of 280 damage anywhere the radius's overlap. Alternatively, they can keep flying around the party screeching hellishly, forcing DC 21 saves vs stun for 1 round. Becoming stunned can easily mean death in this battle, and you can get hit by up to 15 of these at once, making saving a harry business. That's not counting the auto-damaging spores they can shake every 3 rounds.
The Glabrezu play hell with the party's counters. They possess at-will mirror image, making taking them out difficult, and they can function as spotters for the team, utilizing their constant true-seeing ability. Each can cast power word stun to screw over any foe with 150 HP or less. All can cast reverse gravity and dispel magic, and won't hesitate to shut down the magic items of the party, since a CL 16 dispel magic can shut down the vast majority of magic items easily. Finally they can drop unholy blight every round without fail, dealing 8d8 damage to all good creatures in an area and forcing saves vs nausea. If pushed into combat, they have a 15 ft. reach and decent natural attacks.
Dretch simply skulk about the battlefield dropping stinking clouds into the fray. All the demons are immune to the cloud, but it forces a 5% chance per round to become nauseated for 1d4 rounds, potentially causing some PCs to lose several rounds worth of actions. They also use it because the 20% concealment it provides to people inside the cloud completely negates sneak attack, and thus ruins any chance a rogue has to sneak attack their bosses. With five of them, they should also be able to summon an additional dretch, allowing up to 5-6 stinking clouds throughout the battle.
All of the above is assuming, of course, that none of them are using any of their treasures themselves (such as the marilith using any superior weapons, or clad in armor, or any of them wearing rings or cloaks or anything cool like that, which may indeed be part of their treasure and thus added to their statblock by the GM).
Even this isn't "initiative, lulz" at even 17th level. >.>
then i have apparently never faced the CR20 Demon horde at it's fullest.
but we do spend a lot of time facing humanoids and animals, and when i say humanoids, i'm also including giants, low tier outsiders, low tier fey, and low powered abberrations with a humanoid anatomy and access to such things as templates, gear, class levels, and point buy. the animals tend to be class leveled as appropriate. examples can include housecats with rogue levels or lions with fighter levels.
Base monster CRs rarely exceed 10, but they are often augmented by class levels, gear, point buy, consumables and templates to the point they are level appropriate challenges.
and the highest we go is level 15 if we are lucky.
but decent gear is hard to acquire because "Magic Mart" requires a ludicrously high diplomacy check to utilize (DC20+item's caster level), crafting is rarely allowed, and the DM is often stingy with loot. so a handful of 10th level PCs might have a +1 common backup weapon (such as a dagger) and maybe a suit of cheap masterwork or special material armor such as a mithril chain shirt or masterwork suit of plate.
in Fact, the corpses of newly replaced PCs seems to be the primary source of treasure.
plus with the series of rolls required before a new PC can join, rolls to locate the group and survive the treck. a PC can theoretically die before they join the party.
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then i have apparently never faced the CR20 Demon horde at it's fullest.
but we do spend a lot of time facing humanoids and animals, and when i say humanoids, i'm also including giants, low tier outsiders, low tier fey, and low powered abberrations with a humanoid anatomy and access to such things as templates, gear, class levels, and point buy. the animals tend to be class leveled as appropriate. examples can include housecats with rogue levels or lions with fighter levels.
Base monster CRs rarely exceed 10, but they are often augmented by class levels, gear, point buy, consumables and templates to the point they are level appropriate challenges.
and the highest we go is level 15 if we are lucky.
but decent gear is hard to acquire because "Magic Mart" requires a ludicrously high diplomacy check to utilize (DC20+item's caster level), crafting is rarely allowed, and the DM is often stingy with loot. so a handful of 10th level PCs might have a +1 common backup weapon (such as a dagger) and maybe a suit of cheap masterwork or special material armor such as a mithril chain shirt or masterwork suit of plate.
in Fact, the corpses of newly replaced PCs seems to be the primary source of treasure.
plus with the series of rolls required before a new PC can join, rolls to locate the group and survive the treck. a PC can theoretically die before they join the party.
So basically, you are saying because of your GMs specific limitations they place on your home game, fights become win initiative or die?
Do you think this would still be a problem if your characters had appropriate Wealth By Level for their levels?
then i have apparently never faced the CR20 Demon horde at it's fullest.
but we do spend a lot of time facing humanoids and animals, and when i say humanoids, i'm also including giants, low tier outsiders, low tier fey, and low powered abberrations with a humanoid anatomy and access to such things as templates, gear, class levels, and point buy. the animals tend to be class leveled as appropriate. examples can include housecats with rogue levels or lions with fighter levels.
Base monster CRs rarely exceed 10, but they are often augmented by class levels, gear, point buy, consumables and templates to the point they are level appropriate challenges.
and the highest we go is level 15 if we are lucky.
but decent gear is hard to acquire because "Magic Mart" requires a ludicrously high diplomacy check to utilize (DC20+item's caster level), crafting is rarely allowed, and the DM is often stingy with loot. so a handful of 10th level PCs might have a +1 common backup weapon (such as a dagger) and maybe a suit of cheap masterwork or special material armor such as a mithril chain shirt or masterwork suit of plate.
in Fact, the corpses of newly replaced PCs seems to be the primary source of treasure.
plus with the series of rolls required before a new PC can join, rolls to locate the group and survive the treck. a PC can theoretically die before they join the party.
That explains a lot. What you are playing is barely anything like the Pathfinder described in the books. And it sounds like it is being ran by a Chaotic Evil GM.
I'm more Lawful Evil myself when it comes to encounters, Lawful Neutral when arbitrating, and Lawful Good when helping players make choices for their characters.
:P
then i have apparently never faced the CR20 Demon horde at it's fullest.
but we do spend a lot of time facing humanoids and animals, and when i say humanoids, i'm also including giants, low tier outsiders, low tier fey, and low powered abberrations with a humanoid anatomy and access to such things as templates, gear, class levels, and point buy. the animals tend to be class leveled as appropriate. examples can include housecats with rogue levels or lions with fighter levels.
Base monster CRs rarely exceed 10, but they are often augmented by class levels, gear, point buy, consumables and templates to the point they are level appropriate challenges.
and the highest we go is level 15 if we are lucky.
but decent gear is hard to acquire because "Magic Mart" requires a ludicrously high diplomacy check to utilize (DC20+item's caster level), crafting is rarely allowed, and the DM is often stingy with loot. so a handful of 10th level PCs might have a +1 common backup weapon (such as a dagger) and maybe a suit of cheap masterwork or special material armor such as a mithril chain shirt or masterwork suit of plate.
in Fact, the corpses of newly replaced PCs seems to be the primary source of treasure.
plus with the series of rolls required before a new PC can join, rolls to locate the group and survive the treck. a PC can theoretically die before they join the party.
So basically, you are saying because of your GMs specific limitations they place on your home game, fights become win initiative or die?
Do you think this would still be a problem if your characters had appropriate Wealth By Level for their levels?
it probably would. but Weekly William is very treasure stingy. but yes, in a low wealth game, fights become win initiative or die.
it probably would. but Weekly William is very treasure stingy. but yes, in a low wealth game, fights become win initiative or die.then i have apparently never faced the CR20 Demon horde at it's fullest.
but we do spend a lot of time facing humanoids and animals, and when i say humanoids, i'm also including giants, low tier outsiders, low tier fey, and low powered abberrations with a humanoid anatomy and access to such things as templates, gear, class levels, and point buy. the animals tend to be class leveled as appropriate. examples can include housecats with rogue levels or lions with fighter levels.
Base monster CRs rarely exceed 10, but they are often augmented by class levels, gear, point buy, consumables and templates to the point they are level appropriate challenges.
and the highest we go is level 15 if we are lucky.
but decent gear is hard to acquire because "Magic Mart" requires a ludicrously high diplomacy check to utilize (DC20+item's caster level), crafting is rarely allowed, and the DM is often stingy with loot. so a handful of 10th level PCs might have a +1 common backup weapon (such as a dagger) and maybe a suit of cheap masterwork or special material armor such as a mithril chain shirt or masterwork suit of plate.
in Fact, the corpses of newly replaced PCs seems to be the primary source of treasure.
plus with the series of rolls required before a new PC can join, rolls to locate the group and survive the treck. a PC can theoretically die before they join the party.
So basically, you are saying because of your GMs specific limitations they place on your home game, fights become win initiative or die?
Do you think this would still be a problem if your characters had appropriate Wealth By Level for their levels?
Low wealth doesn't help but it also sounds like he's just strait out ignoring rules whenever it suits him. I imagine he probably didn't take into account that sneak attack on a cat is almost assuredly useless in anything other than a surprise round charge since cats have no reach.
There's also the nature of being unable to purchase magic items but granting NPCs access to them in the form of consumables is kind of a huge steaming pile of auroch patties. Either be consistent with your lack of magic marts or don't. (Pet peeve here)
Also, while I'm actually not opposed to the idea of animals with class levels but within reason. If you wanted to represent a particularly awesome war-animal, I wouldn't mind if someone tossed a level or two of an NPC class like warrior onto it to represent its ferocity or combat training, but animals with heroic class levels just rubs me the wrong way something fierce.
Frankly I wish I could GM for you just a few times.
Witch...
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Frankly I wish I could GM for you just a few times.
Ditto.
But there is no golden pass to DMing, if you want to have a go at it, do so and show him how it's done.
Low wealth doesn't help but it also sounds like he's just strait out ignoring rules whenever it suits him. I imagine he probably didn't take into account that sneak attack on a cat is almost assuredly useless in anything other than a surprise round charge since cats have no reach.
There's also the nature of being unable to purchase magic items but granting NPCs access to them in the form of consumables is kind of a huge steaming pile of auroch patties. Either be consistent with your lack of magic marts or don't. (Pet peeve here)
Also, while I'm actually not opposed to the idea of animals with class levels but within reason. If you wanted to represent a particularly awesome war-animal, I wouldn't mind if someone tossed a level or two of an NPC class like warrior onto it to represent its ferocity or combat training, but animals with heroic class levels just rubs me the wrong way something fierce.
Frankly I wish I could GM for you just a few times
he ignores rules whenever it inconveniences him. but none of us hold any power against him because he can't even be arsed to Run an AP by the book.
but getting used to a new DM on another day of the week would be nice.
and now he moved on to his bastardization of fallout Savage worlds where every NPC we fight is also a wild card and has access to the very edges he banned.
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Find another DM, or learn to DM, and vote on his game with your feet.
Low wealth doesn't help but it also sounds like he's just strait out ignoring rules whenever it suits him. I imagine he probably didn't take into account that sneak attack on a cat is almost assuredly useless in anything other than a surprise round charge since cats have no reach.
There's also the nature of being unable to purchase magic items but granting NPCs access to them in the form of consumables is kind of a huge steaming pile of auroch patties. Either be consistent with your lack of magic marts or don't. (Pet peeve here)
Also, while I'm actually not opposed to the idea of animals with class levels but within reason. If you wanted to represent a particularly awesome war-animal, I wouldn't mind if someone tossed a level or two of an NPC class like warrior onto it to represent its ferocity or combat training, but animals with heroic class levels just rubs me the wrong way something fierce.
Frankly I wish I could GM for you just a few times
he ignores rules whenever it inconveniences him. but none of us hold any power against him because he can't even be arsed to Run an AP by the book.
but getting used to a new DM on another day of the week would be nice.
and now he moved on to his bastardization of fallout Savage worlds where every NPC we fight is also a wild card and has access to the very edges he banned.
My face and my palm are going to need some alone time together.
@Lemmy- I've used the phrase Schrodinger's Fighter on a number of occasions.
Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of not saying "Schrodinger" often enough.
The build call isn't to prove one side or another right or wrong. It is to get people looking at the same thing.
That's actually a pretty good point. Although I'm still not exhilarated with the idea of a building competition.
I like making and sharing creative builds, but building run-of-the-mill Barbarian #73 is simply not fun for me, even if playing the build might be.
I haven't posted anything in my build thread because I didn't come up with anything unusual or creative. I have a great Oracle of Battle build I'd like to use some day, but despite its effectiveness and fun-to-play aspect, it's not a very inspired build...
So, yeah, I'm just not thrilled with the idea of posting level after level of a ordinary build so I can compare it to yet another ordinary build.
Low wealth doesn't help but it also sounds like he's just strait out ignoring rules whenever it suits him. I imagine he probably didn't take into account that sneak attack on a cat is almost assuredly useless in anything other than a surprise round charge since cats have no reach.
There's also the nature of being unable to purchase magic items but granting NPCs access to them in the form of consumables is kind of a huge steaming pile of auroch patties. Either be consistent with your lack of magic marts or don't. (Pet peeve here)
Also, while I'm actually not opposed to the idea of animals with class levels but within reason. If you wanted to represent a particularly awesome war-animal, I wouldn't mind if someone tossed a level or two of an NPC class like warrior onto it to represent its ferocity or combat training, but animals with heroic class levels just rubs me the wrong way something fierce.
Frankly I wish I could GM for you just a few times.
To be fair, I believe Lumi's gaming group includes over 10 players, so being somewhat undergeared might not be such a problem... Not that I think that is the reasoning in her GM's head.
And hey, looting dead people is just as valid as buying stuff. A character should have access to appropriate gear even if she never sets foot inside a market!
Finding weapons, armor, potions and all sorts of mundane gear and magical trinkets on the corpses of previous adventurers is a classic way of getting shiny stuff.
12-15 players at it's height
but 8-10 is especially common.
12-15 players at it's height
but 8-10 is especially common.
I still can't even fathom how you guys can run such a game!
I struggle with anything over 6 players!
"Luckily" my group averages 4~5 players (GM included)...
12-15 players at it's height
but 8-10 is especially common.
I still can't even fathom how you guys can run such a game!
I struggle with anything over 6 players!
"Luckily" my group averages 4~5 players (GM included)...
it is complete and utter chaos. the DM has to ignore rules for the sake of Expedience and kill a few characters every session for the sake of making combat more managable.
i didn't even include the DM in those calculations
but it allows for some redundancy and extreme hyperspecialization.
Have you guys ever considered splitting the group in 2~3 smaller ones? It'd make the GM's work much easier, and reduce the time players spend waiting for their turns.
I'm sure you guys enjoy each other's company, but you can always play side by side, but at different tables, so at lunch break you can still hang out.
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@Lemmy- I've used the phrase Schrodinger's Fighter on a number of occasions.Don't worry, I'm not accusing you of not saying "Schrodinger" often enough.
The build call isn't to prove one side or another right or wrong. It is to get people looking at the same thing.That's actually a pretty good point. Although I'm still not exhilarated with the idea of a building competition.
The whole point is it isn't a competition. If there is a problem I want to find out so we can address it.
When we did it with the monk, what we learned was the defensive arguments were all pretty much BS, but damage (and damage reduction specifically) was a problem specifically because no one could address it in any build.
It isn't me vs you. I'm going to make suggestions to make your build better and hopefully you will do the same, as well as anyone else participating.
The whole point is to get away from the whole "e-peen" competition that usually happens and actually work the numbers.
Have you guys ever considered splitting the group in 2~3 smaller ones? It'd make the GM's work much easier, and reduce the time players spend waiting for their turns.
I'm sure you guys enjoy each other's company, but you can always play side by side, but at different tables, so at lunch break you can still hang out.
That's not a bad idea if possible. Though honestly I've run for some pretty large groups. In a sense it's pretty fun if you're good at moving your actions along (larger groups means I get to include much, much larger and more dynamic encounters and that makes me giddy).
PS. Done the build thing. It gets old. I stopped posting builds after I saw them repeatedly ignored. I've got better things to do with my time, like listen to Lumiere tell me about this bizarre game.