Pretty much, and nothing to do with 'sleep marching', what an interesting idea THAT would be.Mostly, however, it's just the sheer amount of physical conditioning those guys do, and the Endurance feat!
Still it really does happen. Advanced special forces train themselves to do this that way they get some level of rest while marching... probably not as good as real sleep but it IS interesting. Hey you should hear some of the amazing things these guys do. It puts D&D fighters to shame.
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I'm totally itching to see what this book has to offer on the subject and on some other downtime subjects as well.Just for the record, I have got the ultimate campaign PDF two day ago, but I haven't jet read the magic item creation section (7 pages).
I will look if there is something relevant in it and post here about it.
I have just read the part on magic items. There is some useful advice there, but nothing about working on the road.
The part about downtime activities use "day" as the minimum unit of time, "with each downtime day counting as 8 hours of crafting time.", so no special rule there for people working on half shifts or overtime.The examples of player/GM interaction when creating custom magic items are between two very agreeable persons. I tried envisioning a similar discussion between you and Aelryinth ..... the result wouldn't be so pretty (no offense meant, in some thing I agree with Aelryinth, in some other with you, probably I could work with both of you [one at a time] but you two seem to be so far at the opposite end of the specrum to be irreconcilable).
I will cite the part that I think will have the largest impact on magic item crafting:
Adjusting Character Wealth by Level
You can take advantage of the item creation rules to handcraft most or all of your magic items. Because you’ve spent gp equal to only half the price of these items, you could end up with more gear than what the Character Wealth by Level table (Core Rulebook 399) suggests for you. This is especially the case if you’re a new character starting above 1st level or one with the versatile Craft Wondrous Item feat. With these advantages, you can carefully craft optimized gear rather than acquiring GM-selected gear over the course of a campaign. For example, a newly created 4th-level character should have about 6,000 gp worth of gear, but you can craft up to 12,000 gp worth of gear with that much gold, all of it taking place before the character enters the campaign, making the time-cost of crafting irrelevant.
Some GMs might be tempted to reduce the amount or value of the treasure you acquire to offset this and keep your overall wealth in line with the Character Wealth by Level table. Unfortunately, that has the net result of negating the main benefit of crafting magic items—in effect negating your choice of a feat. However, game balance for the default campaign experience expects you and all other PCs to be close to the listed wealth values, so the GM shouldn’t just let you craft double the normal amount of gear. As a guideline, allowing a crafting PC to exceed the Character Wealth by Level guidelines by about 25% is fair, or even up to 50% if the PC has multiple crafting feats.
If you are creating items for other characters in the party, the increased wealth for the other characters should come out of your increased allotment. Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats.
I am not so concerned with WBL as some GM so I don't feel that that is a major problem for me.
The book has several interesting suggestions and optional rules, a good buy from my point of view.
@Diego: To be honest, I haven't been following the thread fully. I was just replying to the comment that there are no rules that say you can gain benefits by sleeping more than once a day.
How it relates to crafting, don't really care at this point; I have my house rules for crafting, and even if it makes me 'badwrongfun' I'll stick to them.
No I like that. I totally think meeting in the middle is the right way to go. I only take the position of being staunchly for it when someone comes out as being the full swing on the other side of the spectrum. I've always been a proponent of finding a comfortable middle ground. The tougher it is to get any crafting done the more 'in game solutions' the game offers to players so that someone who wants to craft can at least get 'something' done. I'm only adamantly opposed to one far side of the spectrum. That doesnt mean i'm on the opposite side.
The reason crafting works in my game is I don't try to pull the 'travel for 8 hours then craft for 8 hours' crap, and my gm is still free to lynch me during night crafting on the road whenever he feels like it. Because i'm not cranking out magic items 7 days a week he lets me get in some crafting here and there. Meeting in the middle is the whole point.
I definitely dont take the position that 'because there are people out there like Aelryinth, you should all be Arcane builder fast crafting hedge magicians and try to craft 2666gp of items per day every day for the low low price of 1200gp of crafting materials per day. That'll show him! I'm saying gms are free to do whatever they feel like to slow your crafting down, and there are 'in game' tools to help you circumvent those difficulties. The more difficulties you have, the more tools you have to use to get anything done. Aelryinth is saying none of your tools should work ever. That doesnt mean I'm saying you should use all the tools all the time in the worst way possible. I'm saying the less rational one side is, the more irrational you have to be on the opposide side just to get to the middle. Not that either way of being irrational is good.
Deep down I feel like Aelryinth is the same as me though. He's taking an extreme position on crafting to counteract some player who's always trying to crank out 8 hours of crafting after 8 hours of travel, so he's sort of forced to be as far to a side as he is. Deep down I don't think he agrees that 'no crafting ever ever ever! is the right way to do it either. As always, I use the word 'if'... I simply state that if he is the kind of guy who goes 100% full bore anticrafting all the time, I wouldnt join him at the table. Not that i'd be a supercrafting hellish nightmare at his table just to give him a hard time.
Hmmm... Adjusting Character Wealth by Level seems to confirm one thing to me about how the developers feel about crafting. They really don't want crafters making gear for other team mates, only for themselves.
Hmmm... Adjusting Character Wealth by Level seems to confirm one thing to me about how the developers feel about crafting. They really don't want crafters making gear for other team mates, only for themselves.
I didn't necessarily take it that way. I took it that they don't want one party member taking all of the crafting feats and then gearing up the entire party and herself.
I base it on the final line in the quote: "Not only does this prevent you from skewing the wealth by level for everyone in the party, but it encourages other characters to learn item creation feats."
The problem is if a Player makes a crafting character, and crafts everything everyone wants. WBL doubles for everyone. Then the crafter gets into a fight, and surprise, dies. That player makes a new character, inherits any "extra" equipment that was in the group, and now everyone has doubled WBL without any crafting feats expended thanks to the dead guy.
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Deep down I feel like Aelryinth is the same as me though. He's taking an extreme position on crafting to counteract some player who's always trying to crank out 8 hours of crafting after 8 hours of travel, so he's sort of forced to be as far to a side as he is. Deep down I don't think he agrees that 'no crafting ever ever ever! is the right way to do it either. As always, I use the word 'if'... I simply state that if he is the kind of guy who goes 100% full bore anticrafting all the time, I wouldnt join him at the table. Not that i'd be a supercrafting hellish nightmare at his table just to give him a hard time.
I suspect the same thing, Aelryinth is very always vehement in his positions in the forum. I hope he is a bit more flexible at the gaming table.
The problem is if a Player makes a crafting character, and crafts everything everyone wants. WBL doubles for everyone. Then the crafter gets into a fight, and surprise, dies. That player makes a new character, inherits any "extra" equipment that was in the group, and now everyone has doubled WBL without any crafting feats expended thanks to the dead guy.
If a player do that kind of things to "game" he system the problem aren't the crafting rules.
As I've noted at least four times, I'm perfectly happy with the Crafting rules as they exist...you get limited time while travelling, and it's at 50% effectiveness. I don't have any problem with following the rules made to address this very situation at all.
Getting 1000 gp of crafting per day by rules manipulation? No, I'm afraid the rules aren't quite all in your favor the way you seem to think they are...and if you want to be a tool, it's not at all hard to be a tool back, and have all the NPC's and monsters manipulate the rules just like you.
I'm not against crafting at all. I'm against people manipulating the rules to maximize crafting when they shouldn't be, and I'm very aware of how imbalancing crafting can be.
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Seebs, if nobody has crafting feats, the DM would just withold loot until WBL caught back up to where they are back.
The problem with crafters is that it will never catch up, and the discrepency just grows over time. At pre-10th, it may only be '+1', but it's +1 in a lot of places. Between 10-15, it can easily hit +2 to +3 better in a wide variety of slots, and that's the equivalent of some very nice perma-buffs...which are the stuff that break games, of course.
There really isn't any feat out there more powerful then Item Creation...except maybe Leadership, because Leadership includes the potential for it.
==Aelryinth
Maybe I just play in weird games, but downtime is often tough to come by. I don't see where letting folks craft at full speed with some cost and effort would cause a big problem in conjunction with the guidelines from UC since there's a limited WBL benefit no matter how much time you spend. I also still like the idea of lounging about on a Floating Disk all day...
The 25-50% guideline for WBL increase is kind of like what I was hoping to see though I would have preferred a more fleshed out interpretation where each crafting feat allows you to create a certain gold piece value worth of "half price" items per level gained. Any items crafted beyond that would be at full price. Using UC's 25-50% guideline I'd probably allow characters to keep on crafting after they've exceeded the limit but just make any additional crafting happen at full cost until they gain a level. I guess it is mostly a matter of taste if magic items are available for sale in towns as the rules suggest.
If the PCs are on an adventure treadmill without any appreciable downtime between adventures then it could be difficult to keep up with the suggested WBL increase. I guess if you allow the PC to benefit from both the "2 hours of crafting while adventuring" rule and an additional 4 hour block of half speed crafting each day the PC would be able to keep up with the 25% WBL guidline until around 11th level. The 50% ceiling for PCs with multiple craft feats would be impossible to meet starting around 8th level though, and both of those assume you're always taking a +5 DC to work at double speed. I was also making a conservative guess that parties might average about 3 fights per day (kind of low) and level after 15 fights (kind of high). I'd expect that in real games the rate of leveling might be a little quicker though interspersed with a day of downtime once in a while.
Anyhow, I'm glad there's a guideline now. It should help prevent massive variation between campaigns, which is tough on both players and DMs alike.
So in honor of the original post...
ignoring all the nuances of being interrupted and fatigue which are all completely valid 'interpretations of the gray areas within the RAW'...
Fast crafting in core specifically says you can get 1000gp of progress in 4 hours by taking the +5dc. I think most of us are in agreement about that, so 4 uninterrupted hours, not fatigued in an ideal crafting environment (whatever your table can agree that means) would get you 1000gp of progress in 4 hours with fast crafting.
Arcane builder doesnt say you can make 25% more in a time period. Its not saying that you can make 1250 in 8 hours or 1250 in 4 hours with fast crafting... The specific wording of arcane builder says you can craft 25% faster. Which is where I come up with my 1000gp in 3 hours. At least to me. It's not a HUGE difference reading it the opposite way. The difference ends up being 312.5gp per hour using the 1250/4 interpretation, or 333.3 per hour using the 1000/3 interpretation. Relatively small beans at this point.
I just personally prefer the 1000 in 3 to the 1250 in 4 mostly because thats how the specific language of arcane builder 'reads' to me, but also because the rate is just a smidge higher, I'm down to tiny little 3 hour windows, and I don't like the 'feel of crafting 1250 per day' since its not a nice round number like an even grand. What that means is that if I get interrupted during my 3 hour stint, I only get 500 instead of 625, but i'm still ok with that, because i still prefer a nice round 500 to a 625, but thats just me.
While my dm is totally free to interrupt my little 3 hour sessions, he knows i'll never put myself in a situation where i'm crafting while fatigued and typically lets me get in my 1000gp of progress in 3 uninterupted hours in my secure shelter, which my gm and I agree is plenty of room and resources and stability and security to get stuff done unless someone sets off the magical alarm. That interrupts my craft, but I still get the 500 out of it, and I'd still get 625 if someone were persnickety about the 'must be done in 4 hour blocks' rule. He doesnt make me learn recipes because I was a hedge's apprentice. My gm and I agree that I'd be quite familiar with crafting recipes after being a hedge apprentice for so long. He does make me spend the gold to buy my crafting materials before crafting can begin and we both agree this is RAW.... You should definitely have to. And that's how I personally get 1000 done ina day while adventuring without 'manipulating RAW'
We don't manipulate the raw. We interpret the raw. We come to an agreement about the raw. And it works.
That's how I get what would have been 1000gp (originally a 'full 8 hours) of crafting done in 3 hours, sleep for 2, and still have plenty of hours left per day to head out andm as Ghandi says, be the positive change that I want to see in the world. Theres no rule breaking happening or rule bending to get it done. The only thing that brings that number down is a gm making specific effort to bring it down. Only drawing a stark line in the sand that says I'll be crafting fatigued if I so much as step foot outside of town or cast a single spell or kick a field goal with a goblin would bring it down, and I only play at tables where such stark lines (still agreement and interpretation, not manipulation of the raw) aren't drawn. So thats how I do it. YMMDV.
Still it really does happen. Advanced special forces train themselves to do this that way they get some level of rest while marching... probably not as good as real sleep but it IS interesting. Hey you should hear some of the amazing things these guys do. It puts D&D fighters to shame.
Really? I'll have to remember to ask them next time we are all sitting in the pub together at the base, and enquire why they have not shared this amazing capability with me during our years working together.
Here's whats funny. When it comes to optimizing my ability to craft, I obviously set myself up as a first class crafter.
I'm a hedge apprentice so I get to make 1000 of progress by only spending 480. I'm an arcane builder so I get to not just double my crafting rate, but go 25% faster than double my crafting rate.
I've said in many posts that I make it a policy to try my level best to get in a full 1000gp per day whenever possible and that my gm has agreed to pretty much be chill about interrupting me for the most part.
This should, by all rights, sound like my character or even my party is waaay over wbl, doesnt it?
The good news is my character keeps a daily journal of his adventures. I know without a shadow of a doubt that our party has been together for exactly 89 days so far (in game)... I thought well. Lets check it real quick then....
So total value of all of my gear, cash, crafting components, value of my share of all sellable loot and spells written as a 10th level character comes out to....
92015.
WBL for my level should be 62000 according to the core book right? I'm about 48% over WBL, which according to the ultimate campaign guidelines above might suggest i'm 'pushing it'
Except for 2 things...
FIrst that 92015 is calculating all of my equipment as purchase price. Not a single piece of gear I added up did I count as 'cost to have crafted it'... Good news though. Presuming I got away with crafting 1000gp for day for EVERY SINGLE DAY in my diary would mean I could have crafted 89000 gp of stuff by now, and if it all only counted as 'cost' my total wbl would go down to 45735. Significantly BELOW appropriate wbl for my level...
Now of course that didnt actually happen. I know for a fact that I didnt get to get my full crafting every darn night, so my correct wbl would be somewhere between 74 and 148% of what it should be for my level. if we pick a middlepoint between the two my wbls can be reasonably assumed to be 148% of wbl if I bought everything outright and didnt craft one single item, or if the stuff i crafted counts as cost then somewhere more in the 111% area.
Now for the other catch. We're a party of 3 running through an adventure path designed for 4 people. We've been following treasure to the letter. Techincally I should have accidentally wound up with about 82000 by now without crafting just from having my share of 'missing party member 4's loot'... Its probably true that I did get that share of the loot, but we've just had to spend it on perishables like cure potions and crap... And I know for a fact that the only thing I've crafted for another party member is a pair of goggles to help them see traps and identify magic items...
Bottom line is the way my character is laid out it can quite rationally be described as 'the most perfect build for breaking crafting, wreaking havoc and destroying wbl... And yet, despite that... It hasnt happened. I'm somewhere between 148 and 74% of wbl if you dont count the expendable treasure of the missing party member, and 111% if you either count half my gear as crafted or count that my wbl should actually be around 82000 from having a cut of the missing party member's loot.
Is the campaign broken? Did I 'Double the party's wealth and ruin the game?' It is possible that with crafting I might be up to 20k wealthier than my fellow party members... I have no idea since I dont keep track of their money, but that puts them in the 90-120% of wbl range and thats pretty darn good considering the 'damage' i'm allegedly capable of.
So you are actually telling us what, that the AP loot allocation was wrong? because it sounds like if it was rewarding you properly you guys would be WBL through the roof.
WBL is also not counted as cost, it is counted as PP.
We've had to spend quite a bit on healing... Missing a 4th party member has been pretty rough. Thats probably where the missing cash is. The cash you spent on emptied out cure wands is cash you can't get back... At the end of the day Its a resource management game after all.
Ok that is a huge hole.
So what you are actually doing is offsetting loss at this point, effectively paying cash to deal with the lack of fourth member, and then crafting up a storm to offset the expenditure.
Had you had a fourth member your WBL would no doubt be significantly high.
Of course, we'd have to look at the full accounting of loot to date t be sure, which is why I like to keep full spreadsheets the whole time from L1.
Yes. It woud appear the entire wbl of a 4th party member has been spent on doing his job in his absence. Does 62000gp of cure wands sound like enough to get a party of 3 through 10 levels of an adventure path without a healer? Fights tend to take a little longer since we've lost the benefit of a 4th member on offense. My 92015 calculation included the full cost of scribing the spells into my spellbook that I learned through osmosis from leveling, which oddly I don't even think you have to do... I just do it because not doing it seems odd to me. There may even have been some losses to total party wbl because we've had 2 deaths so far and neither one of them were a situation where we could loot the dead member. Of course the loss of the dead party member and his gear meant a new party member at proper wbl so thats kinda 6 of one half dozen of the other... Bottom line is that i'm only at 148% right now, which sounds bad except that its calculated as if I hadn't crafted a single thing, which isn't the proper way to calculate my WBL using RAW. The correct number is somewhere between 145 and 80 percent, very likely precisely in the 100-110 percent area. The more crafting I've done the lower my wbl actually is, and I can say I've done a fair bit of crafting. I BELIEVE i've gotten crafting in on half the 89 campaign days, or at least gotten 500gp of crafting done on MOST of the 89 campaign days. Given that, my correct WBL calculation should be right around 111.
There's no mystery at all which items in my inventory I crafted or didnt craft, so I recalculated those values properly and my official wbl is 78000. I'm roughly 25% over wbl. Per Ultimate Campaign, thats no big deal. If I had my fair share of the missing party member's loot that number might go as high as 104000, but I being a wizard I don't hold any of the cure stuff.... Our 'replacement healer' currently holds all the curative stuff we've bought with the missing 4th man's money... If we added all that onto his private wbl and counted all the curative stuff we've burnt up just by getting hurt in the last 90 days he'd probably have a wbl around 139000 right now, but we've burnt up a lot of that wbl by rendering curative magic inert as consumables so I bet if I ran wbl on him it wouldnt come close to 139000 right now.
Even if it were, and even If we got to count all our expendable cure magic that we have, have ever had, and used up as part of our wbl, and I took my 1/3 share of it which bumped me up to 104000, or 167% of proper wbl for my level, that number would still be appropriate since I should have 4/3 of appropriate wbl for my level considering we're running on a skeleton crew. The extra cash is 'supposed to' make up for the absence of the 4th man on the field, and that would mean 104000 at this level is almost exactly also at 125% of 'appropriate adjusted wbl, because a 4/3 share of proper wbl would be almost 83000 instead of the 62000 in the book.
Still it really does happen. Advanced special forces train themselves to do this that way they get some level of rest while marching... probably not as good as real sleep but it IS interesting. Hey you should hear some of the amazing things these guys do. It puts D&D fighters to shame.Really? I'll have to remember to ask them next time we are all sitting in the pub together at the base, and enquire why they have not shared this amazing capability with me during our years working together.
Then maybe you really SHOULD ask them before implying someone else is lying since you come off as a ...
Since this was told to me by Vietnam era special forces veterans I can only presume they know what they are talking about. But just doing a quick google search just now turned up a 2010 page where non special forces military guys were talking about sleep marching so clearly YOU need to talk to these special forces friends of yours since you clearly know nothing about this.
I am fairly sure the 25%- 50% WBL increase suggestion is intended for new characters as a way to stop the worst sort of abuse of crafting. To apply this IN PLAY seems extreme and would only serve to cause the crafter to be at LOWER WBL than everyone else since the typical use for it is making disposable wands cheaply.
@LazarX:
No offense taken nor intended, but what do you really know about what I want out of the arrangement?
And come on, what use is there in words like "lopsided?" I mean, you already noted that you run magic item creation very strictly. That might well seem "lopsided" to some, but I wouldn't apply that term because I believe its only purpose in this kind of discussion is to be dismissive and to shut down a line of reasoning with which one disagrees. What's the point in that?
I'm not trying to win any arguments here; I just thought discussion of some "middle ground" options might be more interesting than the continual back and forth about 8 hours of rest, fatigue, and wagons (again, no offense intended for those who enjoy those particular bits).
Sometimes I think I'm not cut out for these forums...
Happy gaming to all!
@Tarantula:
I may not have been clear (or I may have misunderstood or conflated some other posters' comments). I was aware of the equipment requirements for crafting various types of items. I meant to address the fact that for most magic item creation, the PC buys the masterwork item, rather than having to craft it himself, and thus the PC only needs the equipment you listed in your post, and not all of the equipment that is necessary to craft the masterwork item. In other words, I buy the breastplate, and all I need are the materials that are used to infuse magic into the breastplate. If I had to craft the breastplate myself, then the amount of equipment needed would be far greater. In the former case, it seems reasonable to me that one could do the work in a Rope Trick. In the latter case, it is somewhat less reasonable. Note that my language is vague in both cases; different people will judge for themselves what constitutes "reasonable enough."
And to your other point, I routinely accept the +5 to DC for accelerated crafting, as well as for all the prerequisites that I routinely lack. Which gets at what is my biggest complaint with the magic item crafting system: it's too easy to make items that are pretty powerful for the character level. I do it anyway, since the GM runs it RAW, but I would actually prefer if they made it harder (or impossible) to avoid the prerequisites. As it is, the only real obstacles to crafting most items are money and time.
I did some accounting for my 11th level PC with Craft Wondrous Items, and he's pretty much right at the 25% guideline. That's in a Second Darkness campaign where we've had very limited downtime ever since I got the feat but I've been moonlighting as a crafter to keep up (using methods some DMs here might find unacceptable)
Our Kingmaker game might be a bit more out of whack. I'll have to check with the party crafter to see how we're doing. Her PC is built largely around crafting and has 5 crafting feats if you include Scribe Scroll. Mine also has 1 crafting feat, and we sometimes have months of downtime. I also somehow convinced the Kingmaker party to let me keep a ring of freedom of movement we found, which put my WBL way above the norm all by itself.
I wonder if the crafting guideline is supposed to look at total WBL based on accrued treasure or just the benefit gained by crafting. I'd lean towards basing it on the WBL gain from the crafting itself. I think that would make the benefit of crafting feats a little more uniform instead of making crafting very good in games with low treasure and much less useful in games with high treasure. Using total WBL as the benchmark also might encourage "wand smugglers" to effectively bypass the guidelines by crafting lots of expendable items and using them up quickly (kind of like charged items end up being unbalanced in one shot games)
@Tarantula:
I may not have been clear (or I may have misunderstood or conflated some other posters' comments). I was aware of the equipment requirements for crafting various types of items. I meant to address the fact that for most magic item creation, the PC buys the masterwork item, rather than having to craft it himself, and thus the PC only needs the equipment you listed in your post, and not all of the equipment that is necessary to craft the masterwork item. In other words, I buy the breastplate, and all I need are the materials that are used to infuse magic into the breastplate. If I had to craft the breastplate myself, then the amount of equipment needed would be far greater. In the former case, it seems reasonable to me that one could do the work in a Rope Trick. In the latter case, it is somewhat less reasonable. Note that my language is vague in both cases; different people will judge for themselves what constitutes "reasonable enough."
That's just it though. You need to have "a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools" as appropriate to the armor being made magic. You also have to have the breastplate already. The main inhibitor of crafting in a rope trick, is how do you have a heat source? And, for the table to come to agreement on, what is an "appropriate" heat source? Campfire? Forge? Torch?
Shrink Item and Heat Metal could easily combine to create a wondrous item that, upon being commanded, would expand into a full-sized anvil that would heat any metal placed on it.
As noted before, the description of a Rope Trick is that it expands to fit people, regardless of size, but not objects of any size.
You can stick Gargantuan Storm Giants in a Rope Trick, but it makes no allowance for an anvil not on a person, or crates of goods.
==Aelryinth
As noted before, the description of a Rope Trick is that it expands to fit people, regardless of size, but not objects of any size.
You can stick Gargantuan Storm Giants in a Rope Trick, but it makes no allowance for an anvil not on a person, or crates of goods.
==Aelryinth
Actually, the description does not say that it "expands to fit people, regardless of size". The note you reference was GM interpretation\RAI, not RAW.
It does say that it will fit eight creatures of any size, but the mechanics of how it functions to fit those eight creatures are wholly up to the GM and the player until such a time as the text of the spell is changed to state specifically how it functions.
[edit]
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (powdered corn and a twisted loop of parchment)
Range touch
Target one touched piece of rope from 5 ft. to 30 ft. long
Duration 1 hour/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
When this spell is cast upon a piece of rope from 5 to 30 feet long, one end of the rope rises into the air until the whole rope hangs perpendicular to the ground, as if affixed at the upper end. The upper end is, in fact, fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the usual multiverse of extradimensional spaces. Creatures in the extradimensional space are hidden, beyond the reach of spells (including divinations), unless those spells work across planes. The space holds as many as eight creatures (of any size). The rope cannot be removed or hidden. The rope can support up to 16,000 pounds. A weight greater than that can pull the rope free.
Spells cannot be cast across the extradimensional interface, nor can area effects cross it. Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is invisible, and even creatures that can see the window can't see through it. Anything inside the extradimensional space drops out when the spell ends. The rope can be climbed by only one person at a time. The rope trick spell enables climbers to reach a normal place if they do not climb all the way to the extradimensional space.
At minimum, we can say with absolute certainty that regardless of the size of the creature in question, the dimensions of the Rope Trick space are at least 3'x5' - because that's the size of the 'window' that acts as the entrance to the space.
That's just it though. You need to have "a heat source and some iron, wood, or leatherworking tools" as appropriate to the armor being made magic. You also have to have the breastplate already. The main inhibitor of crafting in a rope trick, is how do you have a heat source? And, for the table to come to agreement on, what is an "appropriate" heat source? Campfire? Forge? Torch?@Tarantula:
I may not have been clear (or I may have misunderstood or conflated some other posters' comments). I was aware of the equipment requirements for crafting various types of items. I meant to address the fact that for most magic item creation, the PC buys the masterwork item, rather than having to craft it himself, and thus the PC only needs the equipment you listed in your post, and not all of the equipment that is necessary to craft the masterwork item. In other words, I buy the breastplate, and all I need are the materials that are used to infuse magic into the breastplate. If I had to craft the breastplate myself, then the amount of equipment needed would be far greater. In the former case, it seems reasonable to me that one could do the work in a Rope Trick. In the latter case, it is somewhat less reasonable. Note that my language is vague in both cases; different people will judge for themselves what constitutes "reasonable enough."
Yes, I agree, it does remain vague, and thus gameplay experiences around this mechanic will differ tremendously from one table to another. My essential point is simply that I have no trouble whatsoever selling everybody at my table on the idea that I can have a "heat source" in the Rope Trick, while I doubt I could sell a single person on the idea that I can have a full-on forge in the Rope Trick. I suspect my group is similar to many out there in terms of how they collectively rate whether something is "reasonable enough." And for those groups, the distinction I was making initially becomes salient.
I was really hoping this whole magic item creation mess would get cleaned up in Ultimate Campaign, but from what I've read on the forums that did not happen. Too bad, as I would have paid up for just that one thing. Without that, my interest is tepid.
Then maybe you really SHOULD ask them before implying someone else is lying since you come off as a ...
I'll take 'first hand' over 'some guys told me' and 'I read on the internet'. Cheers, but I am fairly across the subject matter.
I never implied you lied, just that what you were saying was not the case, which is a significantly different conversation, funny how you chose to make it personal and accuse people of calling you things when they never did... so I guess you come off as a ...
As noted before, the description of a Rope Trick is that it expands to fit people, regardless of size, but not objects of any size.
You can stick Gargantuan Storm Giants in a Rope Trick, but it makes no allowance for an anvil not on a person, or crates of goods.
==Aelryinth
It also doesn't say they can wear clothes in the Rope Trick.
Could a character lay out a bedroll in a Rope Trick?
How about take off his armor in order to bed down?
Can he bring his backpack? If so, can he remove items from it? If he's gargantuan, can he bring in his gargantuan backpack? Can he remove the medium anvil from his gargantuan backpack?
Where do you draw the line, and how do you make that decision? Do you really believe there is some rules-based justification for asserting that the line is exactly here and not just over there? With the current RAW, it's never going to be better than a judgment call at each gaming table. Arguing that somebody is doing it wrong -- even that they are not following RAW -- just doesn't work in this particular matter.
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Shrink Item and Heat Metal could easily combine to create a wondrous item that, upon being commanded, would expand into a full-sized anvil that would heat any metal placed on it.
Shrink Item work on non magical objects. If you are speaking of crafting a magical anvil that shrunk down to a small toke item and magically heat what is put on it you are speaking of a highly customized item breaking a few spell rules.
Beside that Heat metal heat the whole item, not always what you want while you are working on it.|
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Then maybe you really SHOULD ask them before implying someone else is lying since you come off as a ...I'll take 'first hand' over 'some guys told me' and 'I read on the internet'. Cheers, but I am fairly across the subject matter.
I never implied you lied, just that what you were saying was not the case, which is a significantly different conversation, funny how you chose to make it personal and accuse people of calling you things when they never did... so I guess you come off as a ...
This report from the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research don't seem to think that sleep deprivation is a "small" thing.
Sleep marching isn't a conquest, it is a sign of some serious problem. While sleep marching your level of attentiveness is way lower, you react by reflex without judgment and your capacity to evaluate something is impaired. Decidedly not the ideal conditions for crafting a magic item.
This report from the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research don't seem to think that sleep deprivation is a "small" thing.
Sleep marching isn't a conquest, it is a sign of some serious problem. While sleep marching your level of attentiveness is way lower, you react by reflex without judgment and your capacity to evaluate something is impaired. Decidedly not the ideal conditions for crafting a magic item.
I think the idea was you would craft immediately after your 8 hours of sleep while you are "fresh", then sleep march with your party while you travel, sleep again and then craft when you wake up. Repeat.
This report from the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research don't seem to think that sleep deprivation is a "small" thing.
Correct, you aren't sleep marching, you are pushing on through sleep deprivation and trying to stay awake and alert well beyond normal capacity. Hallucinations and significant impairments of judgment become routine, and reaction times become measurable in seconds - the thought of then siting down and engaging in high mental function exercises, like making techincal, fiddly, or something like magic items is well and truly improbable - its hard enough to do the basic drills you have executed a thousand times and do almost by muscle memory.
Sleep marching is a complete misnomer, and has nothing to do with sleeping or resting, the marching bit is the only true part.
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I think the idea was you would craft immediately after your 8 hours of sleep while you are "fresh", then sleep march with your party while you travel, sleep again and then craft when you wake up. Repeat.This report from the Walter Reed Army Institute of Research don't seem to think that sleep deprivation is a "small" thing.
Sleep marching isn't a conquest, it is a sign of some serious problem. While sleep marching your level of attentiveness is way lower, you react by reflex without judgment and your capacity to evaluate something is impaired. Decidedly not the ideal conditions for crafting a magic item.
Read the report, it is only 6 pages and interesting. It is not so easy to recover from sleep deprivation if you suffer from it routinely.
Beside that I (don't) want to know a person whose idea of life is work 8 hours, march/fight 8 hours, sleep 8 hours.
To me it seem the sign of some big personality problem.
Again, doing that on a emergency for a few day is possible and even reasonable, living that way forever is horrible.
I had this kind of discussion some time ago on these forum: "For my immortal wizard it is nothing to spend 16 hours every day for years casting create major plane and permanency to create his personal plane. Thanks to my ring of sustenance I will even have 6 hours every day to memorize my spells and socialize."
People living that kind of life in the past was old at 30 years. Even today there is people that claim to work 14 hours every day, but if you look closely to their actual schedule you will see plenty of pauses in it.
I know this is a little cheesy and a manipulation of RAW, but I'm curious if it works.
I saw someone mention a detailed plan of how to legally (RAW) get 8hrs of crafting even while adventuring. I can't find it anywhere, but I'm wondering if anyone else knows of this.
It started by doing nothing for 24 hrs then something using rope trick. There were more steps, but I forget what they were.
Is anyone familiar with this plan and does it actually work by RAW?
Yes, as a matter of fact, I came up with a way to do so myself. Dunno if it worked by RAW, but it makes sense that it would. I was the one who came up with the Ring of Sustenance combined with a Portable Hole. Bear in mind that approximately 6 hours gained per day for using the ring, and then since you won't be taking a 2 hour watch, the rest of the group will have to rest for 10 hours instead of 8. That's where you get the extra 2 hours for a total of 8 in crafting on the go.
In a case like this I tend to take the provided guidelines at face value. We have a handy rule for how much crafting can be accomplished while adventuring. I like it for simplicity as much as balance. As a DM, I can understand that a certain type of player would enjoy getting around the guideline, and I'm sure such a player can do so in a pretty credible way within the rules. There's nothing wrong with that but I guess you could say I'm relieved to run a table where no one would have a problem with my simple ruling so we can get on with the adventuring already.
Nice idea.
The new 125% WBL limits for crafters in Ultimate Campaign should keep it under control though.
Shrink Item and Heat Metal could easily combine to create a wondrous item that, upon being commanded, would expand into a full-sized anvil that would heat any metal placed on it.Shrink Item work on non magical objects. If you are speaking of crafting a magical anvil that shrunk down to a small toke item and magically heat what is put on it you are speaking of a highly customized item breaking a few spell rules.
Beside that Heat metal heat the whole item, not always what you want while you are working on it.
Again, I'll point toward the Field Scrivener's Desk, which magically replenishes the contents of its ink pot and paper. Maybe a minor magical effect, but no matter how you swing it, it's a RAW item that depends on Shrink Item, yet that has built-in magical effects. Another example is the Collapsible Tower item, which is a +2 enhanced shield that can expand into a tower shield via Shrink Item.
Taking that into factor, it appears that magical items don't have to rely on the spell's description or restrictions verbatim, which would also allow for a Heat Metal spell that only heats the part of the item actually placed on the anvil itself.
In a case like this I tend to take the provided guidelines at face value. We have a handy rule for how much crafting can be accomplished while adventuring. I like it for simplicity as much as balance. As a DM, I can understand that a certain type of player would enjoy getting around the guideline, and I'm sure such a player can do so in a pretty credible way within the rules. There's nothing wrong with that but I guess you could say I'm relieved to run a table where no one would have a problem with my simple ruling so we can get on with the adventuring already.
As long as you say so before a player spends resources trying to craft full 8 hours, i see nothing wrong with this.
I've personally never seen what the issue with crafting is. Maybe it's just that our group has a pretty laid-back gaming style, but in any game I've run, I generally allow crafting, and I'd allow most of these methods of getting in the full day's work. Yes, it can throw off WBL. But so what? The players get their shiny new items, and they're a bit more powerful, so I adjust. Maybe throw some slightly tougher encounters at them because they can handle it. Have them be away from civilization for a long time to strain their supplies of consumables. But it's really not like it ruins the game to have PCs that are slightly more powerful than other PCs of the same level might be because they've got 25% more gold.
And I really don't think there's any issue with control or anything here, because I at least have never tightly controlled what items PCs can get when and where. Now, that's not to say I wouldn't mess with them now and again for it (though I like to think I can avoid being as heavy handed as constant distractions in the crafter's crafting area). Things like putting them on a tight schedule, maybe so much so that they have to make forced marches and can't craft, or other things to challenge their dependence on their magic items. The players using the rules to craft more than the general rules allow for is hardly removing the GM's ability to challenge the players or to control the adventure, and unless the crafter is causing problems in the party, it really doesn't throw off the game or ruin the fun of it.
Now, as for the original question, I believe that method should work, although I would prefer the players use something like Secure Hut, if only to avoid grey areas. The fatigue question is interesting, but while one could argue whether or not working after a day of travelling would fatigue a person IRL, in the end it boils down to that you only become fatigued when the rules say you become fatigued, so unless there's a rule that says you become fatigued by crafting after a day of travelling, you don't.