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So I have a friend starting a Pathfinder game soon with a party of 6, including myself. So far we have:
A Catfolk Barbarian
A Catfolk Rogue
A Hobgoblin Fighter
A Dwarven Druid
A Human Divine Hunter Paladin
I know the answer would seem obvious here, but there are 3 caveats, 2 because of the GM and one my issue.
1. Wizards and Sorcerers are BANNED. Yup, I know, but they are out. The GM said he would discuss others, but any full casters are probably going to be too close to allow. So in all likelihood Witches and Magi are out, too.
2. My initial character was going to be an Oracle, but then I was informed any Divine casters will probably be losing their power at some point. The Paladin will still be able to smite, but spell casting will be shut down. That is going to hurt a Cleric or Oracle a lot more.
3. Before anyone points it out, I know a Bard would be great in this group. But for one thing, the Catfolk Rogue is going party face and I don't want to muscle in on her territory. For another, my last 3 characters have been Bards and I really don't want to get shoehorned into that role again.
So now I am at a loss, and wondering if someone here might have a useful suggestion?
What is the focus of the fighter? Is he just going to go for damage (typical two hander or archer), or does he have plans on battlefield control? I bring this up since the party's battlefield control might be limited with only one full caster. If you cannot get a witch or magus, you might want to consider a build focused on such an effort.
Reach is often a popular method to maintain attack power while shaping the battlefield. You could also go as Kazumetsa mentioned, and focus on various combat maneuvers.
Hmmm... another option could be to go with Inquisitor. They are somewhat similar to bards, but they have a vastly different flavor. If divine casters are losing their power, having a dogmatic worshiper of a god would provide you an excellent hook to become involved with the plot since they would be seriously concerned about the matter. While they might end up losing their spell casting, you will likely be able to keep your judgments (hey, the paladin still has his smite, no?), so you will be able to maintain your role as a melee character quite easily. Maybe use all the skill points you will have to cover the four key knowledges (which you get your WIS bonus on). That would cover an important role that the party face might not have room for.
I suggest barbarian or trapper ranger(depending on DM and what the rogue is doing). Who needs magic when you've got skills and smash!
Is your GM going to adjust the game to compensate for the fact that you don't have real casters? Is he going to throw wands of cure light wounds at the group? Does someone have UMD?
Outright banning or stripping of powers of such integral classes as wizard/sorcerer/cleric/oracle is really crazy unless he's really going to change the game and eliminate those classes as enemies, as well as other enemies that are designed to be handled with magic rather than just outright damage.
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Magic isn't a rarity. Essentially it is a continuation of his last game, and a big part of the fallout from the story wrap up was a general distrust of Wizards or anything resembling wizardry. The only wizards allowed are government sanctioned ones-the rest are hunted down and conscripted or killed. He wants to make the fallout a big part of the story arc, and playing a wiz/sorc would cause a lot of plot issues.
I had considered Alchemist and Inquisitor, and while I have a Witch concept I am eager to try, I think that might seem like I am trying to squirrel out of the wizard ban. So I think it is down to one of those 2.
Go bard, and just assist the rogue with diplo. There are plenty other skills you can pick up, like all the knowledges and spellcraft. Make a sound striker archer and go arcane archer after lvl 10.
+1 for the Zen Archer since I doubt that summoners would be allowed either.
Go Inquisitor.
You get your Divine casting and a good bit of utility AND combat power. There's an archetype that'd let you use Wis to be the face of the party as well, but I can't remember the name off the top of my head.
Alchemists also make good skill monkeys and blasters (always good to have when swarms show up) but the Rogue may have the skill monkey bit covered.
I like both classes a LOT. They get a lot of bang for their buck and are versatile as well, which'd allow you to cover any weak spots left by the rest of the party, no matter how spread out those spots may be.
Go goblin alchemist. You'll have a +20 stealth check in no time, allowing you to back up the rogue so he doesn't die like scouts always do on solos. You'll have battlefield control and area of effect damage. You'll be able to buff party members if you take infusions. And very flavorful RP opportunities.
Arcane Archer on bard is terrible. You lose performance and don't have any good spells to use with imbue arrows.
Go bard, and just assist the rogue with diplo. There are plenty other skills you can pick up, like all the knowledges and spellcraft. Make a sound striker archer and go arcane archer after lvl 10.
This group doesn't need performance as much. You have plenty of melee brutes for the rogue and Druid to flank with. At lvl 10 the bard is doing 10d8 x cha mod anyway, and there is more to the AA than imbue arrows.
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Sounds like your dm is a dick. Don't play.
Magic isn't a rarity. Essentially it is a continuation of his last game, and a big part of the fallout from the story wrap up was a general distrust of Wizards or anything resembling wizardry. The only wizards allowed are government sanctioned ones-the rest are hunted down and conscripted or killed. He wants to make the fallout a big part of the story arc, and playing a wiz/sorc would cause a lot of plot issues.
I had considered Alchemist and Inquisitor, and while I have a Witch concept I am eager to try, I think that might seem like I am trying to squirrel out of the wizard ban. So I think it is down to one of those 2.
Hmmm...so clerics are allowed, but they will not be very powerful? Have you considered the Razmiran Priest archetype for sorcerer? The entire point of the class is that you are an arcane caster trying to pass themselves as a divine caster.
While it might seem to be trying to weasel out of your GM's fiats, it might work well in the setting. Such individuals have legitimate reasons to hide if they do not want to work for the state. A sorcerer also has the advantage that they do not need years of training to gain their powers, but merely flukes of chance and blood. That would provide plenty of reason for an individual to want to hide themselves instead of being whisked away to some government internment camp to work on enhancing weapons or something all day.
A witch may have a similar position, but they might have never had the option of becoming a state servant. Thus they would have strong incentive not to reveal their powers lightly. How you would actually accomplish that might be harder than the tailored archetype for sorcerers though. My general point is that you might be able to pull off a full caster if you make the fallout an integral part of its conception and execution.
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DM doesn't like full casters. sounds like he has control issues.
especially when the game assumes, that half your party will be full casters. either arcane or divine.
without magic, every PC dies a lot faster, and healing becomes a lot slower.
but forcing wizards to become government conscripts means they still exist, unless the government is your main enemy.
look at how expediently group members will die without magic.
and to get away with banning magic, it is essentially begging for a campaign of nothing but 0HD PC races.
which will eventually devolve into human or bust unless you can get a physically inclined race more tailored to your build approved. which is anything with a strength bonus and a charisma penalty.
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There was a post a while back were the person was playing a no magic game that looked fun and i offered him the following build with the stats he rolled. Enjoy.
-Race / Class-
Human, Paladin (Hospitaler / Warrior of the Holy Light)
-Stats-
STR 14 (Base 14)
DEX 12 (Base 12)
CON 16 (Base 16)
INT 08 (Base 08)
WIS 10 (Base 10)
CHA 25 (Base 18)(Racial 2)(Leveling 5)
-Feats-
01 Fey Foundling, Toughness
02
03 Word Healing
04
05 Greater Mercy
06
07 Ultimate Mercy
08
09 Extra Lay on Hands
10
11 Extra Lay on Hands
12
13 Extra Lay on Hands
14
15 Channeled Revival
16
17 Extra Lay on Hands
18
19 Extra Lay on Hands
20
-Misc-
32 uses of LoH, 9 Channel Positive Energy Attempts, and +7 to all saves. Can expend 10 uses of LoH to perform Raise Dead and expend 3 channels to cast Breath of Life. Character is a healer only but can act as a decent meat shield for early to mid level. If taking divine bond with a weapon u would have a to hit of 27 (20 BaB + 2 Mod + 5 DBWeapon).
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Another option that may work is the following Alchemist though i will say it does need 1 magic item being the blade of his weapon being enchanted with a perma daylight spell.
Half-elf
Alchemist (Bramble Brewer)(Internal Alchemist)
-Stats-
STR 10
DEX 16 (+4 leveling) = 20
CON 13 (+1 leveling) = 14
INT 14 (+2 racial) = 16
WIS 10
CHA 08
-Feats / Discoveries-
01 Martial Weapon Prof Scimitar, Weapon Finesse
02 Tanglefoot Bomb
03 Dervish Dance
04 Spontaneous Healing
05 Combat Expertise
06 Healing Touch
07 Dodge
08 Preserve Organs
09 Combat Reflexes
10 Enhance Potion
11 Mobility
12 Greater Mutagen
13 Spring Attack
14 Extend Potion
15 Whirlwind Attack
16 Eternal Potion
17 Lunge
18 Grand Mutagen
19 Weapon Focus Scimitar
20 Preserve Organs, True Mutegen
-Extracts-
1- Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Ant Haul, Expeditious Retreat, Detect Secret Doors
2- Cure Moderate Wounds, Barkskin, Aid, Blur, Cat's Grace
3- Cure Serious Wounds, Fly, Heroism, Elemental Aura, Draconic Reservoir
4- Cure Critical Wounds, Stoneskin, Greater Invisibility, Freedom of Movement, Greater Darkvision
5- Elemental Body, Spell Resistance, Sending, -, -
6- Heal, Elemental Body, Caging Bomb Admixture, True Seeing, -
-Method-
Character will have a 50% chance to ignore sneak attacks and turn crits in2 regular attacks, 5x character level in rounds of fast healing 5, ability to make a potion permanent (displacement is best option), double the duration of potions and make them work at character's alchemist level (mage armor and shield of faith is best option), make a single attack against all in a 10ft radius,and get additional fast healing from mutegen thanks to Bramble Brewer.
-Needs-
The character will need the blade of his Scimitar perma enchanted with the daylight spell to take full advantage of mutagen at any time in the day / night and a Dex stat item when possible.
I would play a cleric or an oracle anyway and deal with the casting nerf. Cleric is an extremely powerful class, you ought to be just fine. Specifically, if he's going to nerf your *spells* than your channeled energy should still work just fine, which might well be invaluable.
Don't go full on caster-mode, that's asking for trouble. Play a nicely balanced beat-down cleric with about a 13 wis or so. There's a pretty sick cleric archer cleric build out there that could be just the ticket. Of course you could go melee too, and that's sure to bring the pain if you do.
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Now if Paladin is not ur shtick or the science of alchemy seems cheep then go generic fighter specializing in what ever the existing fighter is not.
I had thought of that, but between them the Paladin is laying down the archery, the Hobgoblin Fighter is going DPR (new player so they just put together a simple character that hits hard), and the Barbarian is maneuver master. Pretty much all the combat roles are filled, so any sort of martial is going to be operating with a bit of redundancy at this point.
I like that alchemist build, and honestly magic equipment won't be a problem-just BEING a caster is the issue. I am going to see about an Inquisitor, with Alchemist as my standby if he says inquisitors are still too divine(brew potion could end up invaluable to this group.)
I might just go Beastmorph Alchemist for utility, and since I find very little use for poisoning.
So did the OP edit his post after the Bard suggestions?
I would not count a magi as a full caster, might be worth asking the GM.
Also, what if the caster class were just to qualify for something else? Say a single level of sorc, summoner, or bard to qualify for dragon disciple. Keep the casting stat down and you will not be functioning as a primary caster.
Will inquisitor get to keep everything except the spell casting? If yes, I would be inclined toward that.
If no I would probably attempt a monk.
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Sounds like your dm is a dick. Don't play.
Judgemental much?
Maybe the GM has a specific world that doesn't have Wizards in it? Maybe he wants to keep arcane casters as NPC's? Maybe there is a good plot reason that Sorcerers and Wizards don't exist that will be revealed in the course of the plot?
The GM has warned the players that divine magic may be lost in the course of the campaign. Warnings of this nature are not the actions of a dick GM.
I think that judging a person that you don't know based on no information is a really nasty thing to do. This was a really horrible thing to say.
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So did the OP edit his post after the Bard suggestions?I would hope so, but you and I both know that is not the case...
What about a Gunslinger? Or are firearms also not allowed?
OP here. Afraid I didn't reconsider the Bard. To add a little more depth, in addition to not wanting to step on the rogue's toes, I just played a Bard. And not entirely by my choice. (It is a long story, but short version is thay again I hae replaced another player who was playing a Bard and the group needed someone who could fill that niche, so although Bard wasn't my first choice I rolled with it to be a team player. I enjoyed the character and it was a good game, but I don't want to have it happen every game.) I want to do something else. I am aware the Bard is a good fit, but in 7 major campaigns this would be my 4th Bard. I want to stretch my wings a little.
Also the AA idea is interesting, but this campaign will be ending in the 10th level range so I wouldn't get a ton of mileage out of it anyway.
Also I do have to defend my GM on this one. He has no beef with prepared casters, and I played a Gnome Cleric in one of his previous games to great effect. It's nothing to do with hang ups about any particular class. It's simply a story hook. A frustrating one, certainly, but one that he feels necessary for the game he's running.
Edit: Almost forgot to answer the question. He had said he was not banning anything he hadn't specifically mentioned, so I would think so. But with the Paladin already covering Archery how useful would a Gunslinger be?
Okay. Any bets that someone else will suggest bard within the next page or so?
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I don't think you can have too much range in a party.
With such a large group I think a Gunslinger could come in very handy.
They reliably hit at low levels and with 4 skill points they are still able to take a few extra useful skills.
I would just make sure the rest of the party and DM is okay with it. The touch AC to hit aspect has lead a lot of people to believe that the Gunslinger is overpowered.
EDIT: BTW, I believe Lamontius and I were just marveling at all the Bard suggestions after you specifically stated that you DID NOT want to play another Bard...
But with the Paladin already covering Archery how useful would a Gunslinger be?
The gunslinger can be a damage machien if built properly (once you get to level 5 and can add dex to damage). You already have a barbarian and a fighter to go melee it up, and you even have a rogue out there. All of whom will be out in front of you face to face with the enemy. You could add another melee character to the mix, but you'll probably get more milage out of being able to full attack at range and never miss. It is a bit expensive it terms of having to purchase paper cartidges etc so that combined with Rapid Reload you can get reloading down to a free action, but your party will probably appreciate your damage output.
EDIT: BTW, I believe Lamontius and I were just marveling at all the Bard suggestions after you specifically stated that you DID NOT want to play another Bard...
yes I feel like Captain O'Hagan from Super Troopers who is just waiting for someone else to say Shenanigans
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EDIT: BTW, I believe Lamontius and I were just marveling at all the Bard suggestions after you specifically stated that you DID NOT want to play another Bard...
Oh my bad lol.
I will have to give the gunslinger some thought. I don't own Ultimate Combat so I haven't spent as much time looking over it as other classes.
I'm gonna go with 'another game'. This sounds messed up to me.
I also think the Razmiran priest is a good idea. You can keep pretending to be a cleric after the divine magic vanishes and claim your faith is super strong. Start a cult. Become the new Razmir :)
I think Alchemist might be a great idea.
They're technically not spellcasters and would fit a campaign where magic is scarce or downplayed. There's also tons of ways to build them. You can play them for battlefield control, AoE damage, an archer, or be a fighter-type that augments his strength with mutagens.
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Check out d20pfsrd.com if you want some more info on the Gunslinger.
I don't mind a super low magic game so this seems like a nice opportunity to play something you might not otherwise play.
Also, are 3PP sources allowed? There is a Swordmaster class from Dreadfox Games that looks like a lot of fun...link below.