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Do you enjoy the Words of Power system? Have you been interested in it but have been disappointed that no one has been supporting it? Do you like the idea of an on-the-fly magic system but were not happy with all the design choices behind Words of Power. Well your prayers have been answered. Jon Brazer Enterprises will be releasing Book of Magic: 10 Undead Spell Words on May 21st. And we have more coming in the future ... if this one does well.
That's the catch. No one really knows right now how many people are interested in expansions to the Words of Power system or even if there is any interest at all in the system. This is where you come in. We need you to download Book of Magic: 10 Undead Spell Words from either d20PFSRD, Paizo.com or DriveThruRPG/RPGNow once it is released if you want to see more of it.
So tell your friends at your Pathfinder game, on social media, at your local game store, everywhere about it. Show us your interest. And please tell us what other spell words you would like to see.
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Yes. Yes. And, yes.
I wish it weren't undead-specific, though. [How can spell words be undead? Are they for undead? Are they for making undead? Are the words themselves undead?]
I mean spell words that are the equivalent of disrupt undead, command undead, animate dead and so on. I noticed those were glaringly absent when I spell a wordcaster (in a Carrion Crown campaign) so I started there.
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I'll add my interest in the subject as well.
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Unless you're using latin...
Alright. I'll bite.
-Ben.
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I am kind of in the dark about Words of Power.
I admit to be attracted to the idea, but is the lack of "words" the primary issue with the system.
The way people carry on about it, I thought there was some other issue besides lack of support.
Am I wrong?
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The way people carry on about it, I thought there was some other issue besides lack of support.
Am I wrong?
I think another issue is that, if you try to make a copy of a published spell, it often ends up either weaker or at a higher level (or both).
This by itself doesn't upset me, as long as Words of Power have some other things that they do better than regular spells. I don't have enough play experience to know what those things might be, though.
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I admit to be attracted to the idea, but is the lack of "words" the primary issue with the system.
From what I've seen, the biggest complaint about WoP boils down to, "that is not how I would have made it." I was certainly guilty of that and I've talked with others that, when it comes down to it, have a similar complaint.
Then I actually played the system. I love it now. When I compare what is actually there to what I would have come up with, I prefer WoP. It really is a well developed system. Mind you, I don't believe it is perfect, but I'll take it over Vancian magic any day.
After having actually played it for a few months, there are, IMO, two main problems with the system as it stands right now. 1) the sum total of the spell words available don't even let you do the full breadth of spells in the core rulebook, let alone the APG, UM, UC, etc. This is easily fixed with additional support, such as Book of Magic: 10 Undead Spell Words. I'm not saying that every spell needs an equivalent spell word, but when you can't create an undead creature with the system, you're missing something. And 2) the damage spell words don't work well with the condition words. [technical] The duration of any word spell is equal to the lowest duration of any one spell word. So if you mix a spell word that has duration rounds/level and hours/level, the duration is rounds/level (sorry hours/level spell word, your spell got shortened). So when you mix an instantaneous damage spell word (like the equivalent of fireball) with a longer duration spell word (like the equivalent of slow), what happens? Slow becomes useless because it is an instantaneous duration wordspell. There are a few damage spells with duration in the rules, but no where near where it should be to really make it useful. Fixing this would actually require some of the spell words to be rewritten. Hence the longer project I am discussing. [/technical]
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You have my attention.
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Ill buy all expansions of WOP
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My issue lies in the structure of the material. I want to give it more attention, but its current format is a hot mess. It may be well developed, but its presentation makes it nearly inscrutable.
-Ben.
My issue lies in the structure of the material. I want to give it more attention, but its current format is a hot mess. It may be well developed, but its presentation makes it nearly inscrutable.
-Ben.
I won't argue with that. Noted for future development.
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Yes, I have spoken extensively with Ben / Terraleon about this. Dale, if this system is solid as you say, I'd love to see you walk through it and clarify it.
Break it down. Clean up the presentation. Make it user friendly.
And I would pay money for that. Now, you have to evaluate the return of investment on your time I realize. I'm just one guy. Yet I think that would be a great gateway product with a series of new Words.
Or if you think you can present the base concepts in a clear fashion, and pair it with Undead Words as a single product, as the first of a series—that would be cool too. Tutorial and new toys.
If you're serious about it, Dale, I'd love to share some of the comments Ben shared with me about the system so that you could address them specifically. But I don't want to do that without Ben's blessing. It was the work product of his analysis. But it was enough to make cringe and not fool with WoP at all.
I think that is the hurdle you want to overcome, and if you can, you may have found a cool niche.
The major, sweeping change is the removal of (most) target word restrictions to the effect words.
There's a whole host of minor changes I will be making as well. Among them will be the removal of the "wall" words. There's no reason for them. Any damage with a duration on the barrier target will do the same job. So yea, I'm right with you on that.
I was fairly disheartened to see a complete lack of support for WoP wince their release, by Paizo or and 3rd party publishers.
Paizo did say before they released the WoP rules they were not going to be doing any expansions for them at all. When it was announced, I fully planned to jump on them and support them and then I saw the final rules, and, well, see above.
Now, you have to evaluate the return of investment on your time I realize. I'm just one guy. Yet I think that would be a great gateway product with a series of new Words.
...
I think that is the hurdle you want to overcome, and if you can, you may have found a cool niche.
That's my hope. I don't have any idea if there is interest in the WoP system after all this time beyond those that have said so in this thread. (BTW, thank you everyone that posted interest on this thread; it is really making me hopeful.) I'm giving it a shot with this one. We'll see.
Oh and if you and/or Terraleon want to share specifics what needs addressed, I'm all ears.
Check your PMs, Dale.
-Ben.
reply PM sent.
I'm playing a wordcaster in Skull and Shackles, so I'm interested in Words of Power. Sadly, my GM doesn't like third party rules, so it's not likely I'll be able to use these as a player.
Doesn't mean I won't be picking them up. ;)
If he's seen the Book of the River Nations, tell him this is being done by the same guy that cleaned those rules up. ;)
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I have played them a bit and i like them, but would like to see them crossed with monty cooks d20 wod spellcasting system. Bring some of that over and words would toast bread!
Also perchance, some words can be combined into one variable level word. A variable level word couldhave incremental increase per sl increase.
I.e. Cure does 1d8+cl positive energy. Positive energy heals most living creatures and harms most undead. For increase in SL add an additional d8. Boost: increase SL by two, can use on a number of targets equal to 3+ you casting stat modifier.
Perhaps the inclusion of a target word for multiple targets. It would simplify the boost description or even remove the above boost description if it had a higher lvl to use, say 4th or 5th.
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't the Undeath effect word already do this? It seems to already be Animate Dead minus the 25 gp/hd cost.
Eh, poor phrasing on my part. I meant there is no equivalent of create undead and create greater undead.
Point of view from someone who rarely buys 3PP for use as a player, but occasionally reviews and allows it from players when GMing:
I’ve been somewhat intrigued by the WoP system since I saw it, but as described above, it seemed a “hot mess” – especially to try to explain to folks who aren’t rules or systems adept and I’m one of those folks that thinks that a lot of the flavor from D&D and its successive generations is the vancian magic system.
That said, one of the thing I’m planning on doing in an upcoming Epic Campaign is exposing players to alternate magic and planar paradigms and I was already planning on using the WoP to illustrate one type of “alien magic”, so a 3PP book breaking down the system to something more comprehensible, especially if it included additional information on “side by side” or “mixed magic” paradigms might be worth my time and $ to investigate.
-TimD
especially if it included additional information on “side by side” or “mixed magic” paradigms
One of the things I had to figure out on my own (because the rules gave absolutely no help) was Sorcerer bloodlines and how the spells granted from them fit in with the WoP rules. I finally settled on the explanation that the bloodline granted pre-made word spells that could not be otherwise deconstructed. It was a "take it or leave it" word spell.
So yes, if this is done, I will be sure to have some kind of explanation on how vancian magic and Words of Power can mix in the same game.
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I know that d20pfsrd had spelled out that any specific granted bonus spells such as those from a sorcerers bloodline or a clerics domains were to be used normally rather then converted.
I dont know where you were looking but it may be a good idea to check there if you have any questions. the editor also has sidebars for faq and clarifications. Not as many as would be liked but there are quite a few.
I know that d20pfsrd had spelled out that any specific granted bonus spells such as those from a sorcerers bloodline or a clerics domains were to be used normally rather then converted.
That's not what I was referring to. I mean, how is it that a wordcaster can cast vancian magic, even if it was only 1 spell/level? I justified it to myself as "It is not a vancian spell. It is a pre-constructed word spell that cannot be changed."
So are you still putting this out on the 21st, or has new information influenced the project?
These 10 words are coming out on the 21st. So far a total of 13 people have posted on this thread expressing interest in Word of Power. Producing a larger project for 13 people isn't feasible. The PDF coming out next week will be a test balloon. If it does well, more will come. If it does as well as, say, Book of Beasts: Ratfolk of the Ruins (which FYI, has sold to date only slightly better than 13 copies), its not going to happen. For a larger project, I need to see larger interest ahead of time.
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I'm trying to throw my money at my monitor, but it's not working!
I love WoP and I wish Paizo supported it more instead of treating it like a red headed stepchild. Consider me buying it.
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If it doesn't get the attention you want there are two suggestions for you.
First i have heard great things about Elements if Magic, though i cant open the file on my nook.
Second, i am making a game that will use magic eventually, though it is still in development, it is a chance to really build something from the base rules up.
I mean spell words that are the equivalent of disrupt undead, command undead, animate dead and so on. I noticed those were glaringly absent when I spell a wordcaster (in a Carrion Crown campaign) so I started there.See the wordspell Undeath. It does what Animate Dead does, only it's 2nd caster level and has no material cost. EDIT: Ninja'd
Back on topic, yes i'd definitely be interested in a bigger words of power system. I've got plenty of ideas of my own on how it should go but, as a few others have stated, variety is what's needed. As in, more than ten spells : /
EDIT: Okay, how'd this formatting nightmare happen?
variety is what's needed. As in, more than ten spells : /
10 Undead Spell Words isn't meant to be a rules overhaul or clean-up. It's an expansion, in the same way that Book of Magic: Signature Spells 2 is an expansion of the vancian magic system.
But it is more than that. It is the first expansion of these rules. This is the first real test of interest in these rules. I've worked on enough projects where people expressed major interest online that sold so terribly that doing anything more with it was just throwing good money after bad (I'm not going to name specifics). I'm not doing that again.
Variety is what is needed, and it is getting that with this (albeit in a small way). But a major upgrade is not what it is going to get until it is proven to be commercially viable. I want to make a major upgrade. Help me do it by buying Book of Magic: 10 Undead Spell Words when it comes out next week.
I'm interested...I don't like the vancian magic system & I was thinking of making my next character to use WoP.
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If I were allowed to completely redesign Words of Power, it would be a very different animal. It would have one word per school of magic, and a few different modifier words. The actual effects would hinge largely on the spellcaster's intent and the GM's interpretation of a fair translation of that intent. Of course, this is leaning heavily into GM fiat, which is the antithesis of "modern" gaming.
It would me kind of like a somewhat broken-up version of BESM's Dynamic Sorcery power.
If I were allowed to completely redesign Words of Power, it would be a very different animal. It would have one word per school of magic, and a few different modifier words. The actual effects would hinge largely on the spellcaster's intent and the GM's interpretation of a fair translation of that intent. Of course, this is leaning heavily into GM fiat, which is the antithesis of "modern" gaming.
From what I've seen, the biggest complaint about WoP boils down to, "that is not how I would have made it."
What you are saying, Kthulhu, is exactly what I was talking about before. Everyone has their own idea of what the system actually should be. Heck, I shelved the rules for over a year after they came out. When I finally tried them, I realized they are a pretty good set of rules.
My group has never used the WoP because of the time it would take at the game table when you have someone wanting to change their words every round to find the "Perfect" combination for that round.
We have toyed with the idea of allowing it if the person had pre-made words ready when they sat at the game table. None of us have actually sat down and tried to play with them though,
I thought the same thing beforehand, but it really is no different than choosing burning hands vs fireball. As a 6th level sorcerer, you choose burning hands for the nameless numbskulls and fireball for the boss. As a 6th level wordcaster sorcerer you choice comes down to choosing to do damage of a 1st level spell (i.e. 5d4 fire damage) or 3rd level spell (i.e. 6d6 fire damage). Mind you, when you choose to do 3rd level damage, you can choose to use the 3rd level damage word or you can use two 1st level damage words (i.e. 3d4 fire plus 3d4 electricity). Using the mixed words deals less damage than using the full level word, but it is really nice to have if you do not know if the boss you are facing has fire resistance or electricity resistance or both or neither.
The system looks complex but it really is quite simple once you get the hang of it. See above on how the presentation of the WoP system gets in its way.
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My group has never used the WoP because of the time it would take at the game table when you have someone wanting to change their words every round to find the "Perfect" combination for that round.
We have toyed with the idea of allowing it if the person had pre-made words ready when they sat at the game table. None of us have actually sat down and tried to play with them though, so this has just become one of those optional rule-sets that we don't look into.
This could be a very interesting way to bring them into the game though. Might have to take a look at them when they come out.
If you really want to avoid changing things up every round, play prep casters first since all their spells are prepped at the beginning of the day. It gives you a chance to learn an know about the system without the combat confusion, then when your comfortable with it, you can expand to spontaneous casters.
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What you are saying, Kthulhu, is exactly what I was talking about before. Everyone has their own idea of what the system actually should be. Heck, I shelved the rules for over a year after they came out. When I finally tried them, I realized they are a pretty good set of rules.
Oh, I agree that it's a pretty decent set of rules. It's a shame that Paizo seemed to get bored of the system after only doing blasting words. My other complaint would be that the words seem to be a bit too specific in their effect. With more generalized words, being a wordcaster would be a no-brainer for a sorcerer (with his limited number of spells/words know). But with the words being as specialized as they are, it's actually a no-brainer in the other direction, which is sad, as sorcerers could use a bit more variety in their casting ability. (I'm personally of the opinion that limiting the number of spells know alone would have been a good balancing factor against the wizards, the delayed spell progression is unnecessary.)
But regardless of my problems with the system as it is, I'm still looking forward to seeign your Undead words (as well as any other future Words of Power products you release).
(I'm personally of the opinion that limiting the number of spells know alone would have been a good balancing factor against the wizards, the delayed spell progression is unnecessary.)
I have adjusted the spell progression for both Sorcerer and Oracle to be equal to their prepared counterparts in my games and noticed absolutely zero balance issues.
Bit off-topic but:
One thing I really want to do with a Wordcaster is play as one in a long-ish running game purely for the excuse to create physical cards or runes or something to cast with. I just want to cast spells as if I'm casting bones or reading a fortune.
Interesting idea for an archetype. Maybe even a new class. Anybody elese have other ideas for archetypes/prestige classes/new classes that you feel is perfect for a wordcaster.