Interesting Question about Assassins Mask and Assassin Contracts


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

So when wearing an assassins mask you are anonymous, you are immune to Bounties and Death Curses, as both theses actions require the person you killed to activate them via death log.

Assassin Contracts however require only a Name, (as far as I am aware)

So it would be logical that provided they have your Name someone could put an Assassination Contract on you.

Now if your out and about without mask and you are killed no issue they claim the contract.

However if you are wearing your mask, anonymous and are killed with someone holding a contract for your death. Do they claim the contract for killing you, or is the contract still unclaimed as they are unable to confirm your identity, and there is no way to link this anonymous husk to the individual specified in the contract.

Scenario:
Dirk Cheney is an assassin in a town, he has multiple contracts running, the current contract his is hunting is for a Abraham Lego. he also has a contract for Juan F.K. who he has been unable to find.

Coincidently Juan F.K. another assassin doning an assassins mask as well walks into town hunting down a contract for Greg W. Busch.

Now Dirk Cheney being Paranoid sees another Assassin in his hunting grounds and thinks "This assassin is trying to kill Abrham Lego before me, No way I am going to kill this guy before he gets in my way. After all he is a PvP flagged assassin so no worries with reseting my assassin flag.

Dirk Cheney Backstabs and kills Juan F.K.
Juan F.K.'s anonymous husk either lays there or burns away into ash.

Does Dirk Cheney automatically unknowingly Collect the Assassination contract?

Or does the Contract remain unclaimed until a verified kill can be made, fulfilling the contract?

Goblin Squad Member

Dirk Assassinated Juan, as long as Dirk Observed Juan first. Dirk would be on Juan's Killers list if he weren't in disguise, right?

If I'm wrong, then it might be worth Dirk's time to switch out of the Mask and report the other Assassin to the city authorities. No need to dirty your hands unnecessarily; if I remember correctly, the Assassin flag resets when you kill someone you don't have a contract for and a short term disguise is cheap.

Goblin Squad Member

No they are both wearing assassins masks, so as far as the game is concerned "Assassin" killed "Assassin"

They are both anonymous

Assassin flags reset when you gain "Attacker" flag, since they are both running PvP flags, no-one would receive "Attacker" flag thus no Assassin points lost.

But for this example lets Assume Dirk did Observe Juan, or from Dirks Perspective He observed and killed "assassin"

so He assassinated and anonymous assassin

Goblin Squad Member

How can the kill be verified? I assume that both Assassins were masked or they wouldn't show up as Assassins. Do masks degrade upon death? Upgraded masks destroy your corpse, but can someone identify you by removing a basic mask post-mortem? I hope not...

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Given the cost of the assassin's mask, I doubt that this scenario will come up in non-contrived circumstances. That said, I think that someone who holds a bounty or assassination contract for someone who is wearing an assassin's mask should not be able to collect.

My primary basis for that is that a significant portion of bounty hunting is the death curse mechanic, giving the bounty hunter more than the usual amount of equipment from the target. A significant portion of the assassin's mask is destroying all of the assassin's equipment, preventing any of it from falling into enemy hands. Those two effects are directly contradictory, and the assassin's mask requires a significantly greater investment to use.

Reasonable people might disagree with my reasoning and/or conclusion.

Goblin Squad Member

Oh, I think it might come up more often than you think, depending on how contracts work. Can anyone pick up an assassination contract? I mean, could both of us get a contract to take out a person, or is it a first-come first-served deal? Personally, if I wanted someone dead, I'd want Assassins competing for the kill.

Also, I know disguises are pricey, but are masks?

Goblin Squad Member

I am inclined to agree with you Decius, I believe that is why they made Assassins wearing masks immune to the death curse and bounties. While Assassin contracts can still be applied because you only need a name. The Contract should not be fulfill-able while the Assassin is masked and anonymous.

Goblin Squad Member

@Cartomancer

Contracts
Some contracts are offered from one character directly to another, usually when those characters are in the same area. Other contracts may be posted on centralized notice boards, and will be visible when a character visits the location of that board.

The person who issues a contract has several options that determine who can accept it. It can name a specific character, a chartered company, a settlement, or a kingdom. Further restrictions can be imposed: required or prohibited alignments, required or prohibited races, required or prohibited archetypes, etc.

Contracts cannot be available forever; they have a limited duration when they're available to be accepted. This will keep the contract system from becoming glutted with old, forgotten contracts.

Assassination Contract
The accepting party agrees to kill a target player character. Can be accepted by more than one party. No time limit to complete. No cost for abandoning the contract. The amount offered for the assassination is placed in escrow on creation of the contract. Completing this contract is a criminal, evil act that will result in an alignment shift. The contract automatically closes on completion.

Assassinations themselves require a whole dev blog to discuss, and most of the ideas we have for them are still very formative.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Wearing an assassin's mask costs you all of your threads for the duration.

That cost is the penalty of a death curse...

Goblin Squad Member

mmhmm yes I am aware, its a death curse you put on yourself on your own terms. But it does make you immune to "The Death Curse" other players can put on you.

Goblin Squad Member

Well, I suppose the flip side is, if you're walking around, notice you're Being Observed, and put on a mask, should that effectively protect you from assassination?

Goblin Squad Member

Vereor Nox wrote:
Assassin flags reset when you gain "Attacker" flag...

I don't think that's right.

This flag gets better the longer you run it, but resets if you kill anyone that you didn't have a contract or bounty for, encouraging assassins to be precise.
Dario wrote:
... if you're walking around, notice you're Being Observed, and put on a mask, should that effectively protect you from assassination?

This is where my mind went as well. I think the answer should be "No".

If I have an Assassination Contract to kill you, and I kill you after stacking Being Observed on you, while I'm running the Assassin Flag, I should get credit for fulfilling my Contract, even if I didn't know it was you when I killed you. At least, that makes sense to me. I believe this is consistent with the following:

If a target dies while suffering the Being Observed debuff and the system would have added a masked assassin to his Killers list (if he wasn't an assassin), the target counts as being assassinated.

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon

No, the bit about it resetting on getting the attacker flag is accurate.

Goblinworks Blog wrote:

Assassin (Evil)

Assassin is for players who want to kill specific other players, or more generally kill other players (as who doesn't like a critical hit bonus?). Assassins do have a signifier of their assassin flag, so their intent may be detected, but they also have a Stealth bonus so they can remain out of sight. Some folks have voiced concern that assassins will not be able to escape since they will be marked as an assassin, but that's what Stealth is for (and if you could hide the assassin flag after completing your kill, the guy you just killed could use chat, a vent server, etc., to tell everyone who killed him anyway).

•This flag cannot be disabled while Attacker, Criminal, or Heinous (or their 24-hour versions) are active.
•While Assassin is active:
◦The player gets a bonus to Stealth and critical chance that scales up each hour they remain flagged, up to ten hours.
These bonuses reset to the minimum upon gaining the Attacker flag unless the target was the subject of a bounty or assassination contract held by the Assassin. (Remember: you don't get Attacker in wars, if the target already has a PvP flag, etc.)

I realize it's an older blog, but Underground doesn't explicity contradict Reno, and specific tends to rule over general. Particularly since the line from Underground is from a summary of Reno.

Goblin Squad Member

@Dario, thinking about it more, it makes sense. An Assassin shouldn't have to ignore people trying to kill him in order to avoid losing his bonuses.

[Edit] Makes me glad I said "I don't think that's right" rather than saying "That's not right".

Goblin Squad Member

@Nihimon you bring up a good point, If you "Observe" them BEFORE they Don the Mask and kill the AFTER they Don the mask, you should indeed get full credit for the assassination.

My quandary is a situation where neither assassin knows one another and an anonymous assassin kill another anonymous assassin and he coincidentally had a contract for the assassin.

EDIT: Originally I quoted the GW blog about assassin flags, however this was covered by Dario so I removed that portion and went on to the next statement.

Goblin Squad Member

@Vereor, yeah, you'll see me acknowledge that I was wrong about that in a post about an hour and a half before yours.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
@Vereor, yeah, you'll see me acknowledge that I was wrong about that in a post about an hour and a half before yours.

ahh your too fast, I was in the middle of editing my post, I should have read what Dario said before posting, my apologizes

Goblin Squad Member

@Vereor, mostly correct. The Champions, Enforcer, and Traveller flags are actually disabled (rather than just reset) if you get Attacker (and possibly also for Criminal and/or Heinous, depending).

Goblin Squad Member

Vereor Nox wrote:

@Nihimon you bring up a good point, If you "Observe" them BEFORE they Don the Mask and kill the AFTER they Don the mask, you should indeed get full credit for the assassination.

My quandary is a situation where neither assassin knows one another and an anonymous assassin kill another anonymous assassin and he coincidentally had a contract for the assassin.

EDIT: Originally I quoted the GW blog about assassin flags, however this was covered by Dario so I removed that portion and went on to the next statement.

Sounds like a windfall to me. Lucky assassin.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm not convinced that I should have to begin Observing my target before he dons his Assassin Mask. It may well turn out that way, but I'm not sure it should have to.

If I have a hunch that the Assassin in front of me is one of my targets, I should be able to begin Observing them even if I don't know who they are.

Goblin Squad Member

I think you should be able to Observe anyone you feel like. I'm just not certain of it being useful without a contract.

Goblin Squad Member

My reading of the blog is that assassins can use their Observe ability on anyone. In point of fact, it doesn't seem like an assassination contract is actually required for anything an assassin does. So I don't see why it would matter whether or not your target put on a mask. If you kill someone while you're wearing the mask, and they have stacks of "Being Observed" on them, then it counts as an assassination. If you assassinate a target, and you hold a contract for them, it should be fulfilled.

Granted, I also think that if you're killed while wearing a mask that doesn't auto-destroy your husk, then players should be able to unmask you as part of the looting process and learn your identity. I doubt that will happen, though.

Goblin Squad Member

If a target dies while suffering the Being Observed debuff and the system would have added a masked assassin to his Killers list (if he wasn't an assassin), the target counts as being assassinated.

I keep coming back to that quote. If I put the Being Observed debuff on you, then I kill you while I'm flying the Assassin Flag, then I've Assassinated you. If I Assassinate you while I have an Assassin Contract on you, then my Contract should be fulfilled.

Goblin Squad Member

Yea I see your point, especially if you've been following him and although he isn't unmasked so he is anonymous if you are confident that you've tracked down the right assassin and kill him, then don't get credit it would be frustrating.

Perhaps it would be best to go with the less logical choice and regardless of if the target was anonymous or not the assassin contract should be fulfilled. That way we can avoid any frustrating scenarios on the hunters behalf.

The target assassin wouldn't care hes did either way.

Besides I find this situation to be a very rare occurrence in the game, unless two companies of assassins go to war with one another and mass contracts on the known members of the enemy assassins group.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
I also think that if you're killed while wearing a mask that doesn't auto-destroy your husk, then players should be able to unmask you as part of the looting process and learn your identity. I doubt that will happen, though.

I would like to see this happen, too.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Dario wrote:
I also think that if you're killed while wearing a mask that doesn't auto-destroy your husk, then players should be able to unmask you as part of the looting process and learn your identity. I doubt that will happen, though.
I would like to see this happen, too.

+1

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Dario wrote:
I also think that if you're killed while wearing a mask that doesn't auto-destroy your husk, then players should be able to unmask you as part of the looting process and learn your identity. I doubt that will happen, though.
I would like to see this happen, too.

I would disagree with this. It would be as frustrating as your contract not being fulfilled just because your target is masked. The assassin's mask is supposed to grant anonymity.

Goblin Squad Member

Your all right, you can observe anyone freely, no contract needed. You can observe other assassins to your hearts content.

Normally when you kill someone while wearing an assassins mask it counts as an assassination.

I am just bring to the point that wearing the mask makes you anonymous and thus immune to death curse and bounty, would this also extend to assassination contracts by way of the contract being noncollectable while wearing mask.

So if you have no way of identifying the body are you able to collect the assassination contract, using observation was merely as a time-stamp or indicator that you knew his identity before he was anonymous and was keeping tabs on him, as a way to confirm his identity on an anonymous husk.

Goblin Squad Member

And it would, if you get out alive. Further preserving your anonymity if you die would be an advantage of the advanced masks that auto-destroy your husk.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
Dario wrote:
I also think that if you're killed while wearing a mask that doesn't auto-destroy your husk, then players should be able to unmask you as part of the looting process and learn your identity. I doubt that will happen, though.
I would like to see this happen, too.
I would disagree with this. It would be as frustrating as your contract not being fulfilled just because your target is masked. The assassin's mask is supposed to grant anonymity.

I agree with you it grants anonymity, if they try to unmask that skinsaw mask off your husk they should find that the flesh mask has fused to your face destroying the non-masked face beneath.

Goblin Squad Member

Vereor Nox wrote:

Your all right, you can observe anyone freeing, no contract needed. You can observe other assassins to your hearts content. Normally when you kill someone with assassins mask it counts as assassination. I am just bring to the point that wearing the mask makes you anonymous and thus immune to death curse and bounty, would this also extend to assassination contracts on you being noncollectable while wearing mask.

So if you have no way of identifying the body are you able to collect the assassination contract, using observation was merely as a time-stamp or indicator that you knew his identity before he was anonymous and was keeping tabs on him, as a way to confirm his identity on an anonymous husk.

The alternative is that you give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:


The alternative is that you give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination.

That would be silly, I think the solution (and likely how it is now)

regardless of if the target was anonymous or not the assassin contract should be fulfilled. That way we can avoid any frustrating scenarios on the hunters behalf.

The target assassin wouldn't care hes dead either way.

Goblin Squad Member

I was under the impression that only high grade masks granted postmortem anonymity, but I could have easily misunderstood.

Goblin Squad Member

cartomancer wrote:
I was under the impression that only high grade masks granted postmortem anonymity, but I could have easily misunderstood.

Higher tier masks destroy your husk on death, preventing the opposition from looting your gear (which is all unthreaded). Nothing has been said one way or the other on postmortum anonymity, leading me to believe that if you die while masked, you stay masked.

Goblin Squad Member

The mask should preserve the anonymity of the assassin to keep the mystery alive. Advanced versions grant other things such as corpse poofing.

"Anyone" evil can't have a mask. Just PCs that learn the correct skills. It would cause all kinds of trouble if they were able to be looted, traded, and used by anyone.

Goblin Squad Member

Anyone evil *can* have a mask. Some might choose not to, but if you're leading a settlement, then immunity to assassination is pretty powerful.

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

The various NPC alliances of assassins (Red Mantis, Church of Norgorber, Daggermark, and others) can teach many useful things, including:

A utility feat called Observation
How to craft and improve an assassin's mask
Various weapon attack feats appropriate to the alliance

Yes, anyone evil that has the connection and trains the skills can have the mask. But not just anyone that is evil.

Goblin Squad Member

And since anyone evil can have the faction and skills required to make a mask, my point stands. If wearing the mask means you cannot be assassinated, then this will "give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination."

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Dario wrote:
And since anyone evil can have the faction and skills required to make a mask, my point stands. If wearing the mask means you cannot be assassinated, then this will "give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination."

If you are wearing an assassin's mask, you are anonymous. You name stops being your name and becomes a random one. So it stands to reason that any benefits tied to your character being logged in would be null while you are masked. You can be immune to assassination from wearing the mask, but you are not granting the benefit of your leadership to your settlement while you are masked, so you are basically doing the assassins job for him.


^ EDIT @ Imbicatus: Word.

I would like to wonder aloud, 'What intentionally anonymous assassin is knowingly donning the mask that grants them anonymity while being observed and thus effectively rendering it useless forever more?' It seems to me that simply making it impossible to don an assassins mask while you have that debuff is the logical answer to this quandry.

Dario; postmortum anonymity has been addressed. When you kill a person normally, you show up on their 'kill list.' When you are wearing an assassin's mask you show up as 'assassin' instead of your normal name. Premortum, it will be dependant on disguises and cleverness, I suspect... since the assassin's mask was only said to effect communication channels and metagame bits unless I'm mistaken?

And, in order to get the mask you are required to build up reputation with one of the larger assassins guilds like Red Mantis or the Daggermark Assasins Guild. That means that your reputation with other groups (probably big ones, too, like Iomedae and Hellknights) is going to go suffer. Particular skills/abilities have not actually been mentioned as a requisite -- if you think you can 'fighter' your way into a settlement and out on an assassination contract, I see no reason to stop your efforts. 'Evil' has also not been mentioned as a prerequisite in PFO... still, the mask is not a freebie to all-comers.

Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:
And since anyone evil can have the faction and skills required to make a mask, my point stands. If wearing the mask means you cannot be assassinated, then this will "give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination."

We are disagreeing about the same thing. As well, we are in agreement about the same thing. I think that I misinterpreted your meaning.

My apologies.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Tertiary wrote:
'Evil' has also not been mentioned as a prerequisite in PFO... still, the mask is not a freebie to all-comers.

Actually, Evil is a requirement to use the assassin pvp flag, and all the abilities learned from assassin groups require the flag to be active in order to work.


Imbicatus wrote:
Tertiary wrote:
'Evil' has also not been mentioned as a prerequisite in PFO... still, the mask is not a freebie to all-comers.
Actually, Evil is a requirement to use the assassin pvp flag, and all the abilities learned from assassin groups require the flag to be active in order to work.

I stand corrected. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
Dario wrote:
And since anyone evil can have the faction and skills required to make a mask, my point stands. If wearing the mask means you cannot be assassinated, then this will "give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination."
If you are wearing an assassin's mask, you are anonymous. You name stops being your name and becomes a random one. So it stands to reason that any benefits tied to your character being logged in would be null while you are masked. You can be immune to assassination from wearing the mask, but you are not granting the benefit of your leadership to your settlement while you are masked, so you are basically doing the assassins job for him.

So, an assassin can't be in a settlement leadership position without his settlement's DI pogoing? I don't think that's the desired outcome.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Dario wrote:


So, an assassin can't be in a settlement leadership position without his settlement's DI pogoing? I don't think that's the desired outcome.

Why not? Assassins are best used outside of the settlement, and leaders are best used inside. An assassin's skills will likely be focused on stealth and combat, while a leaders will be aristocratic ones to maximize production or morale. There should be little overlap unless someone was specifically trying to game the system to allow un-assinatable leaders.


Dario wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dario wrote:
And since anyone evil can have the faction and skills required to make a mask, my point stands. If wearing the mask means you cannot be assassinated, then this will "give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination."
If you are wearing an assassin's mask, you are anonymous. You name stops being your name and becomes a random one. So it stands to reason that any benefits tied to your character being logged in would be null while you are masked. You can be immune to assassination from wearing the mask, but you are not granting the benefit of your leadership to your settlement while you are masked, so you are basically doing the assassins job for him.
So, an assassin can't be in a settlement leadership position without his settlement's DI pogoing? I don't think that's the desired outcome.

I disagree; it is the nature of RPGs that you make decisions and those decisions have consequences. For some, being a assassin leader will be extremely desirable. They will micro-manage their DI and let their crafters/defenders know when it will pogo... they will schedule the pogo appropriately so that just before they need to assassinate someone is when they will don the mask... and before the massed assault against the target's town is when they will remove it and join the legions. Will that be for everyone? Certainly not, that's a lot of work! But, I do not think it is an unfair system.

EDIT: Also, I don't recommend this for those who wish to be SUPER-TOP-SECRET about their assassin schtick. Anyone closely monitoring your DI for long enough will probably notice the pogo.

Goblin Squad Member

Tertiary wrote:
Dario wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Dario wrote:
And since anyone evil can have the faction and skills required to make a mask, my point stands. If wearing the mask means you cannot be assassinated, then this will "give anyone evil the ability to become completely immune to assassination."
If you are wearing an assassin's mask, you are anonymous. You name stops being your name and becomes a random one. So it stands to reason that any benefits tied to your character being logged in would be null while you are masked. You can be immune to assassination from wearing the mask, but you are not granting the benefit of your leadership to your settlement while you are masked, so you are basically doing the assassins job for him.
So, an assassin can't be in a settlement leadership position without his settlement's DI pogoing? I don't think that's the desired outcome.

I disagree; it is the nature of RPGs that you make decisions and those decisions have consequences. For some, being a assassin leader will be extremely desirable. They will micro-manage their DI and let their crafters/defenders know when it will pogo... they will schedule the pogo appropriately so that just before they need to assassinate someone is when they will don the mask... and before the massed assault against the target's town is when they will remove it and join the legions. Will that be for everyone? Certainly not, that's a lot of work! But, I do not think it is an unfair system.

EDIT: Also, I don't recommend this for those who wish to be SUPER-TOP-SECRET about their assassin schtick. Anyone closely monitoring your DI for long enough will probably notice the pogo.

I disagree with this Tertiary. I see such an abuse of the system as requiring to much nonsense to be implemented. Assassin loses his leadership skill bonuses for donning the mask. Does he lose all his skills when donning the mask? Too much gobbly gunk to be worth it to implement.

Edit: My goodness. I used a slur and didn't even realize it. Changed word from naughty to "gunk"


Fair enough; and I do see that. But, from my perspective... the mask was never intended to be a permanent piece of gear. You put it on when you need it, you take it off right after. To be honest, though, the time frame we're looking at before we're seeing people who are reliably able to act as top-tier commanders + leaders + assassins is probably nearly half a decade from now. So, sure... don't take anything away. Their penalty can be their lack of focus. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Indeed. Completely agree with that. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Vereor Nox wrote:
I am just bring to the point that wearing the mask makes you anonymous and thus immune to death curse and bounty...
Imbicatus wrote:
If you are wearing an assassin's mask, you are anonymous. You name stops being your name and becomes a random one. So it stands to reason that any benefits tied to your character being logged in would be null while you are masked.

I think both of those quotes are making a similar assumption that I don't think is valid.

In the first case, the Assassin's Mask makes you anonymous. It also makes you immune to Death Curses and Bounties. I don't believe it's logical to assume the immunity is a result of the anonymity.

In the second case, there's a similar conflation of being anonymous with being logged out that I don't think is really supported.

I don't see any reason why wearing an Assaassin's Mask should make you immune to being Assassinated, or make you an ineffective Leader.

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