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These are thoughts I started to write down at least 2 month ago. Recent threads about the difficulty of season 4 have urged me to finish the contribution and actually to post it. I hope to get some good suggestions back - and that other GMs/players/groups who have weaker players around might also benefit from this discussion
This thread tries to stand in a little bit for some of the silent players whom you never see here around. The idea for the thread came when one of these players died twice in a row during a convention - and a third death was prevented by a four star GM sacrificing his character to prevent a party-wipe in the third game.
That player nearly quit that day - after 80+ games in the society - feeling no longer 'good enough' for society play.
So let’s start to define a weak player.
For frame of reference lets define a weak player as someone who’s characters power wise are on par with the pre-gens - or even below. In addition such a player might apply basic tactics (flanking) but isn’t aware of / hardly ever uses complex tactics. There can be multiple reasons why a player is below average
1) New to playing, possibly this is the very first character in a RPG ever. You only need 36 hours playtime to reach level 4. Some players who reach this level haven't spend more than 50 hours total on RPG - this includes learning rules, playing and generating a character.
2) Prefer to 'play' as to develop a character. I've seen multiple players - even some experienced GMs among them - who don't care much about the forward planning. This can result in a character updated just 10 minutes prior to the game or a lot of wealth not spend. Items not updated to keep up.
3) Lack of game mastery. Capable of playing a hack&slash but easily hampered by aspects like DR / hardness / SR / terrain which needs an alternative approach to succeed.
Is there power creep over the seasons?
I would definately say - YES. Take a 4 person party with Valeros, Ezren, Kyra and Merisiel at level 4 and 7 or a 6 person party with 3*Valeros, Ezren, Kyra and Merisiel at level 4 or 7. In some of the recent adventures they will just be slaughtered.
I generated a table - and I bet it won't survive the formatting. But the bottom line is - the pregens have no way to overcome several very common challenges. These are DR caused by Cold Iron, Silver, Undead Skeletons (bashing), Hardness (Valeros doesn't even have Power attack) or Good.
4 Kyra Merisiell Ezren Valeros
Cold Iron no No No no
Silver no No No no
Slashing yes dagger No yes
Bashing sling No Cane no
Hardness no No No no
Magic melee melee Oil melee
Good no No No no
7 Kyra Merisiell Ezren Valeros
Cold Iron no No No no
Silver no No No no
Slashing yes dagger No yes
Bashing sling No Cane no
Hardness no No No no
Magic melee melee Melee melee
Good Oil No No no
Generating the table was an eye opener to me. Not a single of the 4 characters can overcome hardness in a meaningful way. And these are meant to be all purpose builds made by developers (a few seasons ago).
But we expect from a weak player to be better with his build as the developers deemed good enough not too long ago. That shows a lot how expectations have risen.
Why weaker players have issues at higher level
Simple - we ask them to generate a character that is better as the Pre-Gens - characters designed by experienced developers. Without help they will fail.
What can be done?
Education
Help players to become better by educating them. This can take several different forms. One is to help them generate a good character. Beware – this can be time consuming. Teach them tactics – this works for both GMs as well as fellow players who can point out useful advice. And Paizo itself has done a great job in generating the First Steps – adventures that help to educate a player from basic level.
I’m trying to contribute my part to make players better. But there are areas that I feel that lately the gap towards strong players is rather widening – despite my efforts.
Some reasons are – lack of time on my site – especially after a fellow GM and strong gamer left the area. I don’t have the time to teach 5 players at my table all at once (before or after the game).
Another good way of teaching is having strong players on a table with weak ones. They can show by example.
Don’t take over
But I don’t want to ruin the fun. What can be done to get casual players interested in the character build process. There is a close line between teaching someone and taking over. I refuse to update a character to the next level that isn’t mine – even if that would result in ‘better results’ and save me time.
And there is a fine line between giving advice – and telling a weaker player what to do.
Issues that make it harder
Character Death and the consequences
The death of characters also adds to the burden. Weak players have an increased change to die. So they spend resources on resurrection – and fall further behind.
Good players and weak players separating
I lately noticed at some conventions that stronger player tended to gang together. They know each other, they don’t want to have a ‘burden’ at their table that could drag them down. Not sure if it just me seeing it or if this is a natural response to a tougher environment.
But if that becomes more widespread, then we get into a vicious circle that makes it more difficult to integrate the weaker player – up to a situation where weaker players feel no longer welcome.
What I want
Raise awareness that there is a problem. We don’t want to drive weak players away from our table. The society loses out when this happens.
Know what other players / GMs do to help weaker players.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Favorited.
One question that I have had is this: As a GM, how can I help with education? I have been a bit wary of making suggestions to the players about their characters after a game, lest they find my comments to be arrogant or conceited. I genuinely want to help them, but when you have a party of level 7s that can't deal with swarms, there's a problem. I certainly would be very willing to help people with their characters [so long as they don't ask me about how to build an animal-based PC, as I still haven't explored that aspect of Pathfinder], but I don't often get the chance.
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You know, I hadn't thought of that. We tell people they have to have ways of getting around DR, ways of dealing with flying creatures, blah blah blah ... and then we give them model characters that don't.
In fact, what's the number one thing we tell people they should buy after their first session? A wand of healing. Of both the 4th and 7th level pregens, only Kyra has one. Sure, someone will argue that having that option on a sheet will just confuse new players ... but I'll argue that it will model common behavior, i.e., "Now hand that to the Cleric ... good! You've just taken care of your own healing."
That said, Season 4 was a deliberate step towards catering to power gamers. The fact that I've seen people claiming it still wasn't hard enough is proof of that. If Season 5 continues this trend, we can safely assume that we are no longer interested in having "weak" players in the organized play campaign. Which will be regrettable, because we will be making it very difficult for people new to RPGs--or even experienced RPG players who are new to Pathfinder/3.5/etc--to get involved, since they will need practice before they get "good." If PFS is a marketing campaign (and it is), the decision to cater to the experienced people, instead of a new one, is problematic.
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I had an interesting thing happen in a recent game- speaking of trying to educate players on the "special circumstances" that require alternative tactics/thinking to overcome. I had a scenario which featured deeper-darkness (I am *not* bringing it up to delve in the minutia around this environmental hazard, but to illustrate a particular point). The party had two veteran characters who anticipated this in their character's preparations and so the party itself did not suffer all that much. There were players newer to PFS who were completely unprepared for this... and so I kept mentioning "good thing so and so had such and such or you would be scrambling around in the dark" in hopes that they would realize it and take such preparation in the future.
But I have a feeling that since they were "spared the rod" as it were, and didn't have to suffer the consequences (due to other players), that they will not prep for the next scenario or even give it a second thought.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I had an interesting thing happen in a recent game- speaking of trying to educate players on the "special circumstances" that require alternative tactics/thinking to overcome. I had a scenario which featured deeper-darkness (I am *not* bringing it up to delve in the minutia around this environmental hazard, but to illustrate a particular point). The party had two veteran characters who anticipated this in their character's preparations and so the party itself did not suffer all that much. There were players newer to PFS who were completely unprepared for this... and so I kept mentioning "good thing so and so had such and such or you would be scrambling around in the dark" in hopes that they would realize it and take such preparation in the future.
But I have a feeling that since they were "spared the rod" as it were, and didn't have to suffer the consequences (due to other players), that they will not prep for the next scenario or even give it a second thought.
In regards to deeper darkness specifically, I would love to see a scenario include an oil of Daylight that is later used to bypass Deeper Darkness. That would be really handy.
In fact, I'd love to see more low level scenarios include the very things you need to defeat a particular common enemy - alchemist's fires for swarms, oil of align weapon for DR/Good, etc. One of my first scenarios was The Golden Serpent, which included something similar, and that taught me a lot about how to approach scenarios.
Are the pregens 15 point buys? Someone said that at my last gameday.
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Wow, I just wrote Redward this very morning with a message about this exact issue. I was going to post this message to our June PFS online sign ups when they go live to help educate our players:
"As you level your character in Pathfinder, you should make sure they are properly prepared for challenges they will encounter! Here's a basic guide for things you should keep in mind:
LOW LEVELS (1-3)
WEAPONS: Do you have both a ranged and a melee weapon? You don’t always choose the range at which you fight.
HEALING: Do you have self-healing? A Wand of Cure Light Wounds only costs 2 Prestige Points and has 50 charges--even if you can’t use it, someone else probably can. DO NOT expect other party members to provide healing for you.
DARKNESS: Do you have a way to see in the non-magical darkness? Whether it’s a torch, a sunrod, a light cantrip or just plain darkvision, you need to be able to see in unlit areas.
DAMAGE REDUCTION: Do you have a backup weapon with a different damage type? Some monsters have DR that can only be overcome by slashing, piercing or blunt damage.
SWARM/OOZES: Do you have anti-swarm weapons or anti-ooze options? Older seasons are notorious for swarms. Even a flask or two of Alchemist’s Fire, Acid Flask, etc. can make a difference.
DID YOU KNOW: …that a knotted rope reduces a climb check to DC 5? Always have a rope handy!
MID LEVELS (4-7)
HEALING: Do you have emergency self-healing? A single potion of Cure Moderate Moderate or Cure Serious Wounds can get you back in the fight…or keep you alive long enough to run away.
DARKNESS: Do you have a way to counter magical darkness? An oil of Daylight or the ability to cast Daylight will help counter Deeper Darkness…very important as not even darkvision will penetrate supernatural darkness.
DAMAGE REDUCTION: Monsters may have damage resistance that can only be overcome by cold iron/silver/adamantine. Oil of Bless Weapon or Align Weapon are helpful for alignment based DR.
INVISIBLE/INCORPOREAL: Monsters with these abilities begin to appear. Glitterdust, Faerie Fire and See Invisibility are hard counters to invisibility. Archers should invest in the weapon blanch Ghost Salt for some of their arrows for incorporeal foes.
DID YOU KNOW: …third level potions or oils such as Fly, Daylight, Remove Blindness, Water Breathing, Gaseous Form, etc. are only 2 PP away. While you can only make a 2 PP purchase once a scenario, you can slowly build up a cache of situational potions!
HIGH LEVELS (7+)
If you have out of combat healing, emergency combat healing and ways to counter darkness/DR/abilities, you are generally prepared for most combats at high level. Here are other things to be prepared for:
FLYING: Melee characters need the ability (by potion, spell or item) to combat flyers that prefer to stay at range.
GRAPPLING: Caster and ranged characters need options to avoid or escape grapples.
DID YOU KNOW: …a level 1 Protection from Evil flat out prevents domination by an evil spellcaster. This is very important because it’s one thing when your friend’s MurderDeathKill Machine is attacking foes, it’s another thing when he fails his save against Dominate Person and attacks the party.
(blah blah outro text)"
This was something I was planning to post regardless, but last night I played a 10-11 table of "No Plunder, No Pay" that had 3 (out of 5) characters with no anti-incorporeal or anti-flying options. It was frustrating to use a 1K gp Elixir of Spirit Sight when the archer and musketmaster didn't even have Ghost Salted ammo (and the musketmaster didn't even have a wand of CLW to help with healing to boot).
We're hopefully going to re-run the high tier s4 Lissala adventures right before the s4 finale, but we really need to train and forewarn the low- and mid-level characters as they level so they are not surprised when they hit real adversity in the upper tiers.
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First steps was good to learn some low level basics - it would help to have something like second steps to deal with higher level threads.
Flying creatures
Damage Reduction
Spell Resistance
Each of these can (and does too often) neutralize an unprepared player. Non of these should be a problem for someone knowing what he is doing and playing in an experienced group.
Combat maneuvers can be extreme game changers. You don't need Mr. trip everything - but how do you make weaker players aware of such options.
Good large groups should have enough experienced players to ensure the strong players train up weaker ones. It seems to me St.Louis is doing a great job here to ensure above average players.
But here in the UK we are less competitive. And I'm in the far South-East of Kent. Players can learn a lot by traveling to conventions and experience different play styles, different tricks. This is where it helps a lot being a GM. You become at least aware of new options.
If you are secluded and don't mix often then this becomes a harder issue.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It might be useful to have a training session, something like "Bonekeep with Training Wheels". Break out a retired-because-it's-deadly Season 0 scenario, update some of the common threats (hardness, demonic resiliance), and call it a "danger room". Have people send their PCs through for practice. No Chronicle, no penalties for "dying".
We could design something like this and offer it at conventions during my off-sessions.
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In addition to helping out players off the table, I created a Bard to help players at the table in game. The character does nothing but buff, flank, aid another, and cast a useful spell now and then. He also carries a bag of holding with EVERYTHING (common items, consumables, crossbows, hammers). If you don't have it...I probably have an extra (or 7). I use the character as a lead by example. Most of the time the player only needs to borrow from me once.
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It might be useful to have a training session, something like "Bonekeep with Training Wheels". Break out a retired-because-it's-deadly Season 0 scenario, update some of the common threats (hardness, demonic resiliance), and call it a "danger room". Have people send their PCs through for practice. No Chronicle, no penalties for "dying".
We could design something like this and offer it at conventions during my off-sessions.
I really like the this idea- good one, Chris!
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Lab Rat
I do have a Pathfinder chronicler 1 Wizard 9. An item up to 100 gp - let me just look into my bag.
And yes - a bard is one of the most useful characters to help others. I have a mid-level bard which I use in my 'junior-league' - a group of friends of my son.
This allows my son to GM and me to stay in the background and help (either the GM or the players) while not trying to steal any of the glory or undermine the GM.
Good point on the pregens not being able to handle the standard things we say everyone should be able to handle. Never noticed that before.
1) New to playing, possibly this is the very first character in a RPG ever. You only need 36 hours playtime to reach level 4. Some players who reach this level haven't spend more than 50 hours total on RPG - this includes learning rules, playing and generating a character.
If you are new to playing, everyone is usually willing to give you some advice or assistance. But by level 4 most would expect that you are starting to understand the basics. But you might have never tried to sunder a spell pouch. So you don't know how to do and it might not even occur to you as a possibility. I prefer for other players to make suggestions to inexperienced players. But if no one will step up, I will try to help out a little.
2) Prefer to 'play' as to develop a character. I've seen multiple players - even some experienced GMs among them - who don't care much about the forward planning. This can result in a character updated just 10 minutes prior to the game or a lot of wealth not spend. Items not updated to keep up.
This really bugs me. I understand and to a certain extent agree with character growth as it occurs rather than a plan. "Failed several will saves so I will take iron will." But that doesn't mean you can't think about it and work on it before you sit down to play. If you are failing because you can't be bothered, that's your own fault.
Just a few weeks ago we had trouble hearing the scenario intro because one player kept asking everyone what spells he should learn and what he should buy. I know for a fact he was there for at least 30 min prior to game time. So he could have asked any of us that were present.3) Lack of game mastery. Capable of playing a hack&slash but easily hampered by aspects like DR / hardness / SR / terrain which needs an alternative approach to succeed.
This could get either response depending upon why.
If you haven't been playing long enough to understand how hardness works, someone is usually willing to explain it. I have sometimes given a hint to someone that I know is new, "You might want to consider if you have a way to hurt a lycanthrope since the cover shows one attacking the party, but maybe that's a trick and you won't need it."If you've been playing for year, repeatedly encounter monsters with DR, and still haven't bothered to remember/understand/read about it - well again, not much sympathy.
I have to say it also bugs me when the people with little system mastery insist on running the most complicated builds they can find. Then of course they whine when it doesn't all go their way. Thankfully I don't see that too often anymore.
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I think part of the issue is you have three different groups that you are calling weaker players. Each needs addressed differently.
1) Lack of experience/knowledge.
- This is easiest to correct with another helpful player.
2) Won't bother learning the system or making andy kind of plans or intelligent choices.
- To be honest, it wouldn't upset me to lose these.
3) Don't want to build powerful characters due to the concept they have in their mind, what is mistakenly called 'organic growth' instead of planning, want to me a support/skill character, etc...
- To me this is the tough one. I like playing with these people and to a certain extent, I are one. However, if you sit down with a whole table of support and/or odd concept builds, things can get tough. If asked (which is rare) I will say everyone should be able to at least contribute to combat better than a 50% chance to aid another.
I once played beside a 'utility mage' that had litterally nothing he could provide better than a aid another with a long spear with a +0 modifier. He refused to take any spells that could be used in a fight. Then he would get upset if everyone wasn't devoting their efforts to keep him alive. But that is a rare extreme.
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Sammy T
Yes - these lists are very good. I know that some of my players won't like them (feels too much as a tick list exercise) but they are good for someone like me trying to help them to ensure I covered all the bases and don't forget anything.
Something that also helps - if you GMed a lot before you can try to select a scenario that has one new challenge that the group is unprepared for.
Slowly ease them into it - allow them to find out information - and allow shopping. My 150th credit was for Dawn of the Scarlet Sun. I had a single player when I started able to overcome the DR.
I ensured there was enough RP to gather information and what looked like a sure TPG on paper turned out to be a very enjoyable game. Well - I frightened them from the outset and predicted doom - and no soft balling - if they didn't pick up their level of play.
They listened to the advice and some hints - albeit partly interpreted wrongly - ensured a well prepared party by the time it was necessary. And I hope they learned for later adventures and are now better prepared reaching level 7.
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My bard is kind of cheesy but I'm ok with it because it's for a good cause. The goal is really to take a table of non-optimized characters and make them shine. It's actually pretty gratifying to see other players get excited when they hit on a die roll of a 4. They completely forget about all the bonuses I'm handing them but I sure know it was my buffs that did the job.
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Favorited.
One question that I have had is this: As a GM, how can I help with education? I have been a bit wary of making suggestions to the players about their characters after a game, lest they find my comments to be arrogant or conceited. I genuinely want to help them, but when you have a party of level 7s that can't deal with swarms, there's a problem. I certainly would be very willing to help people with their characters [so long as they don't ask me about how to build an animal-based PC, as I still haven't explored that aspect of Pathfinder], but I don't often get the chance.
Hey! The entire party wasn't level 7! Two of them were levels 8 and 9, and my character was only level 6. Yet somehow, I was the only one packing alchemist's fire. Unfortunately, I didn't have quite enough to make up for the rest of the party not having any. The funniest was the fire based character who could only target single enemies, so he couldn't do anything about swarms.
Of course, it's possible that's not the session you're talking about...
I wouldn't be reluctant to make suggestions. Be sure to let people know if there's stuff you think they should be aware of.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Favorited.
One question that I have had is this: As a GM, how can I help with education? I have been a bit wary of making suggestions to the players about their characters after a game, lest they find my comments to be arrogant or conceited. I genuinely want to help them, but when you have a party of level 7s that can't deal with swarms, there's a problem. I certainly would be very willing to help people with their characters [so long as they don't ask me about how to build an animal-based PC, as I still haven't explored that aspect of Pathfinder], but I don't often get the chance.
Hey! The entire party wasn't level 7! Two of them were levels 8 and 9, and my character was only level 6. Yet somehow, I was the only one packing alchemist's fire. Unfortunately, I didn't have quite enough to make up for the rest of the party not having any. The funniest was the fire based character who could only target single enemies, so he couldn't do anything about swarms.
Of course, it's possible that's not the session you're talking about...
I wouldn't be reluctant to make suggestions. Be sure to let people know if there's stuff you think they should be aware of.
*chuckles* No, not your session...there were alchemists's fires on the pregens, and there was one AoE spell on Kyra that affected this swarm, but nothing nearly big enough to fight this thing.
...
Have you played at one of my tables?
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Kydeem
I agree with your different kinds of weaker players.
The true difficulty happens if 1 or 2 gets combined with 3. The first character my daughter wanted to play was a gnome druid - she liked Lini on the cover of the books.
My advice for another character was backstabbed when my wife insisted I should let her play what she wants to play (instead of something that would make it easier for her and me).
I generated spell cards for her to ensure at least the spell casting and selection can be handled. But this is not a concept for a beginner.
Unfortunately the very first character is the one that you get most attached to - and this is the one where you need to know most to avoid a concept that doesn't work / doesn't work for your own play style.
In this regard it is great that you now can do level 1 rebuilds. I try to take extra care on advising new players on their very first character. Keeping it simple is one of the bits I attempt.
And play style is something very important as well. I have a young player with a barbarian who is afraid to go into the font line. he would be better served with a ranged based character. On the other hand I know players who always go into the front. A range based character or utility character is just wrong for them.
... Unfortunately the very first character is the one that you get most attached to - and this is the one where you need to know most to avoid a concept that doesn't work / doesn't work for your own play style...
Yeah, my first and highest level PFS character is a sorcerer that isn't really built they way I would do it now. So he tends to have a rough road when I play him. But I still do.
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The only problem I see with your premise, is that you don't explore the possibility of the GM factor:
- Are they capable or willing to adjust their difficulty factor to suit the power/experience factor of the table?
- Are they capable or willing to help a new table with ideas?
- Are they willing to dial back the “hard-o-meter” a tad for the sake of fun?
I try to do my best to gauge the table I’m GM’ing for, and just how intense my “help” will need to be. For a very experienced and powerful group, I tend to throw everything I have at them within the scope of the scenario. I’m pretty tactically and rules savvy, so the experienced players, in some cases, really have to work to survive and succeed at the primary mission.
If I have a mixed group, I do my best so that everyone feels challenged, but not overly so. This is the most difficult table to GM in this style, because you can have characters that simply overpower the table, while others sit back and enjoy. Or you end up accidentally killing the newby and then the Veterans can’t cope with the loss of hit points and it ends in a TPK. You have to be really careful here.
If I have a table of newbies or less experienced players, I try to teach them how to survive the challenges presented by suggesting some knowledge rolls based on what they know about the scenario (V-C briefing, blurb, whatever), and give them time to go shopping to meet whatever they think the challenge might be. And during combat, I will point out why certain tactics might be poor, and ask if they really want to do that. In turn, I dial back my “hard-o-meter” just enough to make it challenging, but not stupid-deadly.
I think a large way to solve this perceived problem is to educate our GM’s how to do three things:
1) Run to the table
2) Educate new and in-experienced folks
3) Ensure fun over stupid-hard
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Andrew
Thanks for adding the GM factor. I had lots of ideas / thoughts originally when I started the document I posted today. Only to find out that I hadn't yet added a single solution - only framed the problem.
Here is one more aspect how a GM can help
4) Knowing the group the GM can suggest a scenario that fits the group and play style
I avoid to have a group of five weak players running a tough season 4 scenario. And I check what changes are done before I have a group of 4 players entering a season 4 scenario.
The APL is 4.2 - look for a tier 3-4. The APL is 3.5 - newer let a group of weak players attempt a tier 4-5 with such an APL.
Off course - this won't work in a convention or shop environment.
The only problem I see with your premise, is that you don't explore the possibility of the GM factor:
- Are they capable or willing to adjust their difficulty factor to suit the power/experience factor of the table?
...
- Are they willing to dial back the “hard-o-meter” a tad for the sake of fun?
...
For a very experienced and powerful group, I tend to throw everything I have at them within the scope of the scenario. I’m pretty tactically and rules savvy, so the experienced players, in some cases, really have to work to survive and succeed at the primary mission.
...
I have no problem with what you are saying, but some people feel they are NOT supposed to do this.
This is an organized event that is supposed to be the same every time. They are supposed to play about the same level of difficulty/help no matter who sits down.
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Andrew, "Severing Ties" is a Tier 1-5 adventure. Would you do the same with a Tier 7-11, if some of the players were unfamiliar with the basics of PFS gameplay?
What are basics?
Knowing how to flank? Definitely a yes.
Knowing how to do all different combat maneuvers? I heard players suggesting to sunder spell component pouches to eliminate the thread of casters.
Interestingly the following was done by a very inexperienced group in the 7th or 8th time I was running Mist of the Mwangi - and I never have seen an experienced player doing it
A player announced she was taking out a sack and stuff the idol into a sack. The CMD of the idols is 4 if I remember correctly. I was stumped how simple it was to overcome the idols by just grapple them and stuff them into a sack.
Edit: And has it changed what is regarded as basic over time?
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Repeat after me:
Held action to interrupt the spell-caster.
Concentration checks in pathfinder are hard, and damage scales MUCH faster than concentration checks even if your character is built worse than do it yourself furniture.
Use a ranged weapon, or a half/none spell, or better yet a magic missle. Wait for the caster to start and interrupt them- works MUCH better than a dispel magic or hoping that you both memorized the same spell- all you have to do is resist the urge to have your turn NOW.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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It might be useful to have a training session, something like "Bonekeep with Training Wheels". Break out a retired-because-it's-deadly Season 0 scenario, update some of the common threats (hardness, demonic resiliance), and call it a "danger room". Have people send their PCs through for practice. No Chronicle, no penalties for "dying".
We could design something like this and offer it at conventions during my off-sessions.
This would be a ton of fun to develop and test out at PaizoCon this summer. If you want a wall to bounce ideas off of, let me know!
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This would be a ton of fun to develop and test out at PaizoCon this summer. If you want a wall to bounce ideas off of, let me know!It might be useful to have a training session, something like "Bonekeep with Training Wheels". Break out a retired-because-it's-deadly Season 0 scenario, update some of the common threats (hardness, demonic resiliance), and call it a "danger room". Have people send their PCs through for practice. No Chronicle, no penalties for "dying".
We could design something like this and offer it at conventions during my off-sessions.
I'm in for assisting with non-sanctioned fun. Though, admittedly, I'm more interested in a non-sanctioned plot-focused adventure with skill-based challenges.
-Matt
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Andrew, "Severing Ties" is a Tier 1-5 adventure. Would you do the same with a Tier 7-11, if some of the players were unfamiliar with the basics of PFS gameplay?
I don't know.
I haven't run a table before at 7-11 with a group that was completely inexperienced at that tier.
I generally tell my players to bring their "A" game for Tier 7-11 and specifically sub-tier 10-11 as this is the Tier where the "kid gloves" come off.
Ryan Bolduan started that line, and many of our GM's who were players when he said it, are saying it now.
But what would I do?
I would probably try to GM to the table while making things a bit more tough due to the fact they "should" be more experienced by the time they reach level 10.
I've noticed though, that at least the Game Days that I hang out at, in Minnesota, we tend to have a fairly experienced player base, and those players who are brand new are quickly educated by all our experienced and generally very helpful players.
At conventions and other areas I've gone to, the overall experience level of player is lower, and I really had to dial some challenge back when running for them.
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Suddenly I find myself wanting to start requesting to be seated with new players when possible at local game days. Thanks for the post, Thod. :)
Jiggy
I love GMing for new players. I don't know how often I have GMed tier 1-2 - but it seemed for a long time I hardly was doing anything else and tended to gather most of the new players always at my table.An experienced player at the table always helps me. I would love to have you around on such occasions.
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Andrew
You don't have to be completely inexperienced to be sub-par on a higher tier.
1 death, 0 GP in a scenario and you are down 6-12K in the wealth curve.
Bad experiences ... My son plays okay - actually very well for his age - but his highest level character is his ranger - and he got afraid losing his companion. So he keeps the companion back lately. That keeps the companion alive - but weakens the build a lot.
Then he is fully aware of DR - and how to overcome it - but he ended up in having 3 magic weapons with special material. That costs a lot of gp as it could be achieved a lot cheaper in alternative builds - with the gold free for other improvements.
Sometimes small decisions add up by that level. He contributes and isn't a burden - but he won't carry the group or won't be able to compensate for a weaker player.
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The only problem I see with your premise, is that you don't explore the possibility of the GM factor:
- Are they capable or willing to adjust their difficulty factor to suit the power/experience factor of the table?
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- Are they willing to dial back the “hard-o-meter” a tad for the sake of fun?
...
For a very experienced and powerful group, I tend to throw everything I have at them within the scope of the scenario. I’m pretty tactically and rules savvy, so the experienced players, in some cases, really have to work to survive and succeed at the primary mission.
...I have no problem with what you are saying, but some people feel they are NOT supposed to do this.
This is an organized event that is supposed to be the same every time. They are supposed to play about the same level of difficulty/help no matter who sits down.
If campaign management tells me I’m wrong, and that I have to regurgitate to every table exactly the same way regardless of what type of characters, experience, roleplay, etc. that they bring, is the day I quit PFS. This is not hyperbole or a threat. Just the truth.
Seriously. There is no such thing as "exactly the same" when it comes to the nearly infinite combinations of GM style, player style x 4 to 7, and character style x 4 to 7. I can run the scenario as written for all the tables, but that is the only “the same” I’m obligated to uphold.
Otherwise, I will cater the table to what is fun for that group of players and do my best to provide a challenge that isn’t too challenging for that group of players. If they are making stupid choices over and and over, the dice have spoken, or in the case of high level play for experienced players, my tactics are better than theirs, I will and have killed characters and on rare occasions TPK’d.
But my job as a GM is not to be a computer. Go play WOW or Eve or whatever if you want a computer GM. My job as a GM is to make sure the players at my table have fun. To do that, I have to have fun. And I won’t have fun being a robot.
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Andrew
You don't have to be completely inexperienced to be sub-par on a higher tier.
1 death, 0 GP in a scenario and you are down 6-12K in the wealth curve.
Bad experiences ... My son plays okay - actually very well for his age - but his highest level character is his ranger - and he got afraid losing his companion. So he keeps the companion back lately. That keeps the companion alive - but weakens the build a lot.
Then he is fully aware of DR - and how to overcome it - but he ended up in having 3 magic weapons with special material. That costs a lot of gp as it could be achieved a lot cheaper in alternative builds - with the gold free for other improvements.
Sometimes small decisions add up by that level. He contributes and isn't a burden - but he won't carry the group or won't be able to compensate for a weaker player.
There are all kinds of reasons for sub-par characters at a Tier 7-11 table.
The only one that I allow to be a mitigating factor for how challenging I make it, is overall player experience level.
Seriously.
In your example with your son, unfortunately, death and being behind on the Wealth by Level table because of the cost of a death, is part of the risk of playing the game. And a sub-par character because of a death, is not a reason for a GM to hold back.
Now what I said above may seem absolute. But it is not.
There are always circumstances that change my mind all the time. I largely GM by gut feeling. It really hasn’t steered me wrong yet.
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Andrew
Actually I don't think the ranger ever died so far. My wife lately has more issues on that front ...
But the ranger is the very first experience of level 7+ for my son (he is now level 10 or even 11 since last weekend - so we are now tier 10-11). I have other players around who never before have played on high level. They are slowly getting up the ranks as well.
The assumption high tier players are 'experienced' can be flawed. They are up to a certain degree - they played at least 6 levels with their character. It doesn't mean that they have any experience of high level play. This is a different kind of experience that is needed here.
Can you expect an 'A' game from any such player? Maybe a 'B' game.
PFS has been successful in recruiting new players. I successfully managed to get players from their very first RPG session up to level 7 and beyond. This thread is about - what do I do now.
My son will have learned and applied learning on his second character - and by his third character he will be capable of an 'A' game. But what do I do to ensure a good experience - and not leaving the table - until then.
Similar to tier 1-2 - there are players who for the first time do high level play. Some areas might not have this problem as there is an enrichment of high level players who also have prior experience - either via AP, previous OP, etc.
One or two such players are easily absorbed in a group. Get a full table of them and you try to stay away from too challenging scenarios.
And yes - that reminds me of one more way to help. Get experienced players. I even go as far as 'importing' them by having full weekend games where I invite experienced players that can mix with my local ones.
If campaign management tells me I’m wrong, and that I have to regurgitate to every table exactly the same way regardless of what type of characters, experience, roleplay, etc. that they bring, is the day I quit PFS. This is not hyperbole or a threat. Just the truth...The only problem I see with your premise, is that you don't explore the possibility of the GM factor:
- Are they capable or willing to adjust their difficulty factor to suit the power/experience factor of the table?
...
- Are they willing to dial back the “hard-o-meter” a tad for the sake of fun?
...
For a very experienced and powerful group, I tend to throw everything I have at them within the scope of the scenario. I’m pretty tactically and rules savvy, so the experienced players, in some cases, really have to work to survive and succeed at the primary mission.
...I have no problem with what you are saying, but some people feel they are NOT supposed to do this.
This is an organized event that is supposed to be the same every time. They are supposed to play about the same level of difficulty/help no matter who sits down.
I am not disagreeing with you. Just saying that I have heard this mentioned several times.
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I like Chris Mortika's suggestion of a Danger Room, but what if we DID attach a chronicle to it upon a full completion? Nothing big, more like a minor boon to show that you've successfully navigated the dangers, and to simulate Pathfinder training. Perhaps a one use bonus to knowledge checks?
Naturally this should be something a player can replay until they're successful, with no threat of death.
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Andrew
Actually I don't think the ranger ever died so far. My wife lately has more issues on that front ...
But the ranger is the very first experience of level 7+ for my son (he is now level 10 or even 11 since last weekend - so we are now tier 10-11). I have other players around who never before have played on high level. They are slowly getting up the ranks as well.
The assumption high tier players are 'experienced' can be flawed. They are up to a certain degree - they played at least 6 levels with their character. It doesn't mean that they have any experience of high level play. This is a different kind of experience that is needed here.
Can you expect an 'A' game from any such player? Maybe a 'B' game.
PFS has been successful in recruiting new players. I successfully managed to get players from their very first RPG session up to level 7 and beyond. This thread is about - what do I do now.
My son will have learned and applied learning on his second character - and by his third character he will be capable of an 'A' game. But what do I do to ensure a good experience - and not leaving the table - until then.
Similar to tier 1-2 - there are players who for the first time do high level play. Some areas might not have this problem as there is an enrichment of high level players who also have prior experience - either via AP, previous OP, etc.
One or two such players are easily absorbed in a group. Get a full table of them and you try to stay away from too challenging scenarios.
And yes - that reminds me of one more way to help. Get experienced players. I even go as far as 'importing' them by having full weekend games where I invite experienced players that can mix with my local ones.
This is where as a GM, you have to use your gut-feeling to determine what the players will find fun.
You are correct, a table who's playing level 11 for the first time EVER in their life will be hugely different than a table of my close friends where we have 5 home campaigns all at level 16 (we started them at level 1 in 2000.)
So I have to determine what their "A" game can handle vs. what a super-experienced table's "A" game can handle.
This often can come to light in the first round of the first encounter.
As an experienced GM, I know when to pull back a little bit, and when I can go all-out.
Not all GM's know how to do this (and some are unwilling to for whatever reasons they may have.)
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So I have to determine what their "A" game can handle vs. what a super-experienced table's "A" game can handle.
This often can come to light in the first round of the first encounter.
^ This is the thing I try to do when running at conventions/game days for people I don't know very well. The first encounter is a good sign for the rest of the game as to ability/preparation.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I like Chris Mortika's suggestion of a Danger Room, but what if we DID attach a chronicle to it upon a full completion? Nothing big, more like a minor boon to show that you've successfully navigated the dangers, and to simulate Pathfinder training. Perhaps a one use bonus to knowledge checks?
Naturally this should be something a player can replay until they're successful, with no threat of death.
Well now my Ruby Phoenix players are going to be sad at my lack of prep because I'll be writing up a concept for the Danger Room. First Steps introduces us to the idea of the Society, but this could be the intro to Society PLAY. Let's meta the heck out of this.
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Andrew
I hope I'm relative good in adapting. I just ran the same scenario for a group of 4 less experienced players (season 0, tier 7-8) on APL 7.25 and for a group of 6 at APL 9.25.
The first group struggled mightily with a flying ranged attacker.
The second group had a level 11 archer bard build and suddenly I was having 3 flying characters approaching. I still had them sweating when I deliberately took an attack of opportunity to outmaneuver the three flying characters - and go full out on the archer. Alas the dice betrayed me. AoO hit me, I rolled three fails in my attack - and two of the three flyers made their fly check.
A 150 degree turn isn't that easy if the best of the three flying characters had a fly skill of 2 ...
Edit: And I should add - group 1 had some nice ranged spells - alas all fire based on a creature with high SR and fire immunity.
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I like Chris Mortika's suggestion of a Danger Room, but what if we DID attach a chronicle to it upon a full completion? Nothing big, more like a minor boon to show that you've successfully navigated the dangers, and to simulate Pathfinder training. Perhaps a one use bonus to knowledge checks?
Naturally this should be something a player can replay until they're successful, with no threat of death.
This could work as a Quest.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I'm not an inexperienced RPGer, but I am a fairly inexperienced Pathfinder player.
The problem with Pathfinder is that it superficially looks an awful lot like what you know, until all of a sudden it's very different.
When my wife and I got back into RPG a couple of years ago we eventually ended up with Pathfinder, because to us it felt more like what we knew (mostly AD&D2e) than did the other game system we tried.
Building fairly simple characters (and paying attention to the lessons to be learned from running them through First Steps) let us pick up enough to build characters that were usable for at least tier 1-5 adventures.
We also started a second pair of characters a short while later, as it became clear that in some ways our first characters were not all that well suited to PFS. By avoiding the more obvious pitfalls we ended up with characters that were a lot of fun to play, and seemed quite capable of handling (or at least surviving) the challenges we encountered.
Or, at least, they were until we got outside tier 1-5 (or 3-7).
The game changes at tier 5-9. All of a sudden, you can get blindsided by the consequences of a poor choice made months earlier. This can be as simple as having 'wasted' money by enchanting a sub-optimal weapon, so when you eventually realise you should have had a weapon of a different type (or size), or one made of a different material, you end up paying more than a character built by a more experienced player. I don't like having to plan my characters five or more levels ahead to avoid this (let alone the insidious traps in areas such as feat tree progression), but it looks more and more as though this is necessary.
The game changes again beyond level 9, both tactically and strategically. I'm not sure that even our second pair of characters (who've just got to that level) are going to be able to pull their weight up there. So maybe we'll have to go back (if not to square one, then at least to square two) and see what we can do with two more characters.
We'd much prefer to learn from our mistakes and just let our characters grow level by level, rather than ending up metagaming. But it takes at least 24 scenarios to get one character to level 9, and we've now played more than 60 of the scenarios available (mostly tier 1-5 or 3-7, so there are proportionately even less of those left for us to choose from). If we end up overlooking yet another critical requirement we may simply run out of options.