So far so good.
Only complaint I've had as the DM is it was confusing trying to figure out where the PCs should start, and at what level. There's so much there, including content for level 1 adventurers, but oddly this content is buried behind other content for higher level adventurers.
Maps are good, the traps and puzzles have been interesting. Other than getting started, I've had no problems with it.
We've still got a long way to go, only 6th level with most of the place still ahead of us...
|
So far so good.
Only complaint I've had as the DM is it was confusing trying to figure out where the PCs should start, and at what level. There's so much there, including content for level 1 adventurers, but oddly this content is buried behind other content for higher level adventurers.
Maps are good, the traps and puzzles have been interesting. Other than getting started, I've had no problems with it.
We've still got a long way to go, only 6th level with most of the place still ahead of us...
Kool, hope it continues to be fun.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm running it right now for my Wednesday night group. The PCs just hit 11th level. We're having a lot of fun. You have to get into the swing of it: it requires a certain mindset to play.
It gives away a lot of treasure. And nonstandard treasure at that (my party recently found a belt of titan strength +8 and a ring of +4 will saves).
The encounters are tough (two weeks ago we fought a creature that, on top of his 3 strong physical attacks, could cast hold person twice per round as a free action, no daily limit). And the encounter design is pretty interesting: often relying on a large group of enemies, or a mixed group of opponents. It's rare to fight a solitary powerful creature. The CRs are wacky: you'll be on a level designed for level 10 characters, and one room will have a CR 2 encounter, then the next room a CR 13 encounter. It keeps players on their toes. (It's very interesting for the casters, as they have to keep sizing up the situation, never knowing when to nova or when to hold back.)
The dungeon isn't really driven by plot, nor by being completionist (ie clearing out a level). It's driven by the players deciding "this stuff is hard, let's stay on this level a little longer" until the players level up enough and eventually say "this stuff is starting to feel easy, let's go to a deeper level". They manage their own risk/reward. Therefore, you need a motivated group, who enjoys dungeons, just for the sake of dungeons.
Hope that helps!
A wizard (not a sorcerer, not a witch, not an "arcane caster," but a wizard) is absolutely mandatory, as is a trapfinding rogue (or a ranger or bard with trapfinding).
I'm running a Rappan Athuk campaign journal here, if you're interested. It's an expensive product, but I'm a huge fan.
|
|
A wizard (not a sorcerer, not a witch, not an "arcane caster," but a wizard) is absolutely mandatory, as is a trapfinding rogue (or a ranger or bard with trapfinding).
I'm running a Rappan Athuk campaign journal here, if you're interested. It's an expensive product, but I'm a huge fan.
So is spellslinger considered 'wizard' or is it considered 'arcane caster'?.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"arcane caster" - though I'd make a case that a good combination of rogue, sorceror and witch could also work very well in RA - my group didn't need a wizard, but had a blaster-sorceror and a utility witch/rogue-duo that was quite successful. But go in there without trapfinding and you DIE. Even more than you'd usually do.
Also, if you want a run-down of what to expect content-wise, I wrote a HUGE review that can be found just about everywhere. ^^
|
|
"arcane caster" - though I'd make a case that a good combination of rogue, sorceror and witch could also work very well in RA - my group didn't need a wizard, but had a blaster-sorceror and a utility witch/rogue-duo that was quite successful. But go in there without trapfinding and you DIE. Even more than you'd usually do.
Also, if you want a run-down of what to expect content-wise, I wrote a HUGE review that can be found just about everywhere. ^^
I've read the first page of your review so far...sounds like this place will be hard to survive.
But that is why it is called the Dungeon of Graves isn't it (wicked evil DM laugh!), but then again some players enjoy the challenge. I know mine do even with 12 player and NPC deaths so far.
Take it from a DM that has run it for 11 years now, sorcerers don't last long, you really need that wizard and a straight rogue is ESSENTIAL!
I say you need a wizard because you need a guy with an "I have just the right spell for this!" spellbook. A combination of utility casters might work just as well, though, as Endzeitgeist suggested.
If you are talking about the main adventure book, yes it can easily be run w/o any of the add-ons. The Hero Lab files are very convenient though if you use Hero Lab.
Low-level CRs. That's cute. Short answer: there aren't any.
Honestly, the Mouth of Doom (with the exception of Zelkor's Ferry) is the safest place on the whole map.
There is some more low level content on the way (its currently being written). I believe the hard copy is due out early 2014ish.
Rappan Athuk, one of the few places where it is safer inside the dungeon than outside, at least for awhile!
Sad, but so very true. Oh wait, I'm the one who wants to RUN this sucker.
Starts laughing menacingly.
Going from memory here, but the only ones that are 0/x are encounters that can happen in the lair or as wandering encounters. So, if you run across the baddies in the lair, you get the CR x, also if you get them as a wandering encounter it's still CR x but you won't have their lair. If you kill the wandering encounter and then find the lair, it's CR 0. Or if the DM likes some verisimilitude, he might drop an in-game hint about one of these lairs (maybe someone in town heard about it and tells the PCs) so the PCs might go looking for them and find the lair while the baddies are out "wandering". Heck, that could even randomly happen without the in-game clue.
Let me rephrase that.
Has anyone compiled a list of Rappan Athuk dungeon levels by CR?
Each level comes with a recommended difficulty level which tells the GM what levels the PC's need to be to tackle the level. The problem is that you can occasionally come across CR20+ encounters in levels that are listed for level 6-12s (though they are generally hard to find unless the PC's really search the level). Typically, the lower you go the harder it gets. For the most part if the party matches the difficulty level they should not have too hard a time with most of the encounters, so longs as they don't go down the well.
That being said here is a spoiler of the recommended level of each level. I won't list the names of the dungeon levels, just the identifying number (such as 1, 1A, 1B, etc). I also won't list individual encounters as to spoil as little as possible.
Omitting the wilderness above Rappan Athuk, most is lower than a CR 13 with the exception of the Kraken and maybe 1 or 2 other things.
Level Name - Difficulty Level
1 - 3
1A - 10
1B - 4-6
1C - 1-2
2 - 6
2A - None listed
2B - 1-3
3 - 8
3A - 9
3B - 20+
3C - 3-5
4 - 7, 10 if temple is assaulted
4A - 5
4-B - 6-7
5 - 9
5A - 9
5B - 7
6 - 8
6A - 10
7 - 12
7A - 10
8 - 9
8A - 10
8B - 7-10
9 - 12
9A - 12
9B - 10
9C - 12
9D - 10
10 - 12
10A - 12
10B - 12
10C - 12
11 - 9
11A - 15
12 - 13
12A - 12
12B - 10
12C - 7
13 - 15
13A - 12
13B - 9
13C - 11
14 - 15
14A - 15
14B - Not listed, probably the same as 14A
14C - 18+
15 - Orcus (All but impossible
In my personal experience GMing the campaign, once the PC's hit level 12-14 it becomes hard to phase them without dropping CR+4 encounters on them multiple times a day. I had a group of level 11-12 PC's waltz all over the second temple of Orcus with little trouble. There are also encounters that are listed as 13-15 but are comprised of mobs nothing higher than a CR8 which provides little challenge for higher level PC's. My group is nearing 15th level and I hand-wave many of the remaining encounters because: "your group comes across of 60 goblins, you slaughter most with impunity and the rest of them escape. Players X, Y, and Z takes *rolls a few d4* damage from a few lucky arrows hitting them". This is partially due to what I'm about to talk about next.
What Erik says is true about treasure, but even with the mountains of gold, items, jewelry, and the occasional door, that my players have hoarded they still are under gold for their level (based on the chart on the PFSRD). To be fair, they will end up needing it. Orcus isn't just going to lay down and die you know. If you really feel uncomfortable giving them that much money, just take one or two big ticket items here and there and you shouldn't have a problem. If the PC's start to feel over powered and are having no problem walking on encounters, cheat. Give monsters items or powers they don't have, bumping up to-hit and save DCs a little, fudge a roll here and there, use better tactics than they normally should. It IS Rapan Athuk. It's made to be hard on PC's, so you might as well too :P
It is also true what he said about starting the campaign is a little confusing. I started with 20 point buy, level 2, 2000 gold, one free masterwork weapon, and they started at Zelkor's Ferry. I used normal experience progression. It's worked out all right. So far we've had 3 deaths, and a dozen or so near-deaths. Two temples down, and working on getting their levels a little higher before hunting down the final temple.
You are really zipping along there Joanna! I started my players at level 1 shortly after the pdfs came out and they are just getting to level 7. 12 player and NPC deaths so far and they haven't been deeper than level 3 although they are going to 5B next. After they got waylaid by a couple of Gugs on level 3 and could not handle the Pirate Ship I sent them to easier pickings for awhile to the new level and 2B for them to get a breather. Lost a few players in the process though. That was ok as we were getting up to 11-12 at a session. As a result they stalled for awhile at level 6 but are going again.
As has been noted by Joanna and others the CR's only are a guideline and you can run into the wrong thing if you open the wrong door.
The reason I think my PCs have lasted so long is bad decision making on my part. There's always something I find after the encounter is over that I could have done differently to make it more challenging. The one thing I've noticed is that party deaths mostly come down to save-or-suck spells.
Martial threats either don't survive long enough to get a full-round off or just can't hit the PCs if they decide to stack AC.
They must have awfully high ACs for Gugs not to be able to hit regularly with 5 +17 attacks per round. And they aren't even real tough monsters! Of course it didn't help when I had 6 weresharks attacking from the rear with the Gugs attacking from the front<WEG>!
To be fair my group is a semi-dependent on buffs for their massive AC, but even a large group of gugs could not phase them. I'd imagine they'd just use Wall of Stone to funnel them in one or two at a time and watch as their archer dishes out 120+ damage every round while their plant oracle and psyonic warrior soak up hits in the front. That or the magus drops a 120+ damage fireball on them and laughs maniacally as they are all turned into ash.
Oh the joys of DM high level parties.
On that note, I did manage to kill off someone last session, but not using the book. They've been sidetracked to complete a story quest, and it involved venturing into a dwarven mithral mine to clear out some pesky demons and the creature who was portaling them in. The long and short of it are that Stone Demons are hilariously fun to DM, and they're big enough to take the focus off the real threat.
And the hazards. Well my group was only level 6 when they hit level 3 so it was a different story. Even with 8 or 9 of them they were no match. A high level party should be rather deep into RA by now. If they are taking on CR 20s then the fight with Orcus should not be too far off.
Or you could just send Malx after them. That is what I did in 3.5 to my high level party, 2 survived to tell the tale of the 1 round fight!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
:) I keep hearing that. I welcome you to try that in RA, have fun!
From the Rana Reader Issue 13:
"THE LOST LANDS
We have been getting a lot of questions about The Lost Lands. We are equally very excited about the campaign world as well. So to help answer some questions we are sharing this small part of the intro written by Greg Vaughan from Stoneheart Valley.
The Lost Lands will directly incorporate every book released by Necromancer Games and Frog God Games…yes, all of them…with a couple exceptions as outlined here:
We can’t include the Judges Guild books; Judges Guild owns that Intellectual Property, and the Wilderlands of High Fantasy setting is complete in its own right. If you want to plop it down in your Frog God Games campaign world, that’s fine, but we won’t be writing it directly into the setting.Though Bill and Clark were involved in the some of the early Sword & Sorcery Studios titles—particularly the Creature Collections—that material will not be incorporated into the setting either. The Scarred Lands is its own entity and property and will not be incorporated for the same reason given above.
Robert J. Kuntz’s Maze of Zayene series will not be included. That’s part of Robert’s game world that he let Necromancer Games play around in, but it will not appear within The Lost Lands.
Morten Braten’s Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia is geographic Earth, so it will not be directly included, but all of Morten’s stuff is fantastic, and we will certainly be indirectly incorporating it as much as possible.
Gary Gygax’s Necropolis is set in the Earth analog of Khemit. We will be incorporating it as part of the world so you can run that adventure seamlessly.
John Stater’s Hex Crawl Chronicles are set in their own self-encompassed world that John is fleshing out himself, so those adventures from Frog God Games will not be directly incorporated into The Lost Lands either (though look for some future indirect connections with his own opus campaign, the Land of Nod).
What does that leave? Well…everything else published by the Frog God or the Necromancer. It will all be included and, though there may be a necessary tweak here and there to make it all fit, it will be faithful to its original intent…Barakus, the Gray Citadel, Darkmoon? It’s all there, and it will also include newcomers like the Razor Coast, the Northlands, and Richard Pett’s forthcoming The Blight city setting. It’ll all be in there."
This is the best answer I can give you. Yes there is one. They are working on it:)
Did your DM give you a passive perception check for traps or were you just prodding everything with a ten-foot pole all the time?
I ask because as far as I know, traps don't count as observable stimulus being that they are concealed. So they require intentional searching as a move action. That's how I run it anyway, so the trap-finding rogue is pretty irreplaceable in our RA campaign. {Actually he's a archaeologist bard.}
If you aren't in any particular hurry there's nothing stopping you from saying "until further notice I am checking for traps as we walk at a slower rate down the hall." I don't really see why someone with the Rogue Talent Trap Spotter is indispensable, though it could come in handy for RA or other trap heavy games.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That slower rate would be 10'/round! I might say that you would bore the heck out of the other players and annoy the heck out of the DM rolling every 10' to the point that wandering monster checks would go way up! People may belittle the poor rogue but with all the new rogue talents and feats he can be quite an effective character in Pathfinder.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
:) I keep hearing that. I welcome you to try that in RA, have fun!My monk with +18 perception at level 5/6 or so saw pretty much every trap.
Also I use the take 10 and take 20 rules to their fullest, heh.
Also, as a bonus, I was a zen archer so I was an unstoppable combat monster.
Depends on the interpretation of the trap. You can't take 10 or 20 when "threatened". So, say for example, a pit trap is in front of you when you're walking, it's "threatening" to go off if you step on it. No 10 or 20 there.
Many, many other examples, but the bottom line is if you have a pushover DM, you can take all kind of advantages.
And brvheart is right; there should be plenty of wandering monsters and other encounters to liven up the show while you're "checking" everything.
Chaoseffect: what if you have to run from a monster? And run headlong into a trap? Trap Spotter would still give that rogue a chance to notice the scythe-blade trap before the fighter loses his head...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For example my wife is planning out her rogue for our Razor Coast campaign and is currently level 4. Now in 3.0/3.5 she would have gone ftr/rog but is finding that in pathfinder she can create the duelist type character she wants better by staying straight rogue although she may take 1 level of fighter for the weapon proficiencies. I play the rogue in her Wilderlands campaign and have 1 lvl of cleric for roleplaying purposes (think Bennie from the original Mummy!). I have found I have no issues being effective in any combat thus far at 7Rog/1Clr.
The rogue is not meant to be a fighter light than can find/remove traps. He has all sorts of jobs that are hard for another single character to fill. He can be stealthy, pick pockets, traverse narrow ledges, climb walls and decipher strange languages. He also can be a resource for acquiring information and use magical devices, bluff and intimidate all in one neat package! He is a highwayman, a cat burglar, a second story man, the quintessential thief!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Love rogues, and love FGG for helping some folks see their worth!
|
|
The rogue is not meant to be a fighter light than can find/remove traps. He has all sorts of jobs that are hard for another single character to fill. He can be stealthy, pick pockets, traverse narrow ledges, climb walls and decipher strange languages. He also can be a resource for acquiring information and use magical devices, bluff and intimidate all in one neat package! He is a highwayman, a cat burglar, a second story man, the quintessential thief!
Truth. I actually find it amusing that so many posters here find the rogue to be so useless, as he's often THE MOST useful member of a party. Like you say, they seem to judge him based on combat ability alone. Imagine if we were to judge fanboy-wank-bait wizurds with that same criteria...
I love my rogues! My first was a henchmen in 1982 named Kirbye Yordeste. He attempted to pickpocket my PC and failed. Rather than remove his hand or kill him he took him into service! Kirybe's secondary skills were eating, wine-tasting, comic and coward and boy did be excel at being a coward! Whenever he was asked to check for a trap his usual retort was "no way, I ain't gonna do it!" Then Aleviev would put a sword at his throat and he would go, "Uh, Ok..." After he finally left there service he would sign on to parties occasionally as the thief. When asked then to check for traps he would respond, "You check the door, it might be trapped!" After much cajoling he would eventually do it, but was not thought fondly by many parties, except when it came to combat. He would fight like a cornered rat!
Chaoseffect: what if you have to run from a monster? And run headlong into a trap? Trap Spotter would still give that rogue a chance to notice the scythe-blade trap before the fighter loses his head...
I'd probably try to run back the way we came instead of into the unexplored area that's likely to just mean we get to face more monsters... and then if you're running you probably wouldn't be able to give much of an explanation of the exact nature of the danger the trap posed so it's iffy whether or not it would help the fighter keep his head.
As far as all the "unique" stuff the Rogue can do... low level spells and other classes also having class skills kinda puts a damper on most of that. You prefer having a Rogue, go ahead and have a Rogue. I'd prefer a Ranger or a Bard myself.
Hey if you want to run through an area I detected a trap more power to you, that is one way to figure it out! Some times you can't go back the way you came. Hey, whatever works for you. I will run my rogue.
If there's one problem with the dungeon, it's high level (like 16-20) content is lacking. I know this may sound odd, but it really needs an extra level or two for parties at that level. The only one I can find so far is the Refugees of the Tsar, and that's next to impossible for the party to find. Most of the encounters left in the dungeon are either: CR "kills the party in one turn", or CR "is killed by the party in one turn". There isn't an in-between. The last real threat they faced was when they were ambushed by a vampire-wizard in one of the middle levels, but he died in one round to massive DPR. That was many sessions ago. I've had to make up 90% of the stuff for levels 16+ to keep the party challenged.
Hey if you want to run through an area I detected a trap more power to you, that is one way to figure it out! Some times you can't go back the way you came. Hey, whatever works for you. I will run my rogue.
If we're being chased by something we have to run away from I'd probably risk the trap that I'm vaguely aware of instead of what's behind; probable death > certain death after all.
*shrug*
If there's one problem with the dungeon, it's high level (like 16-20) content is lacking. I know this may sound odd, but it really needs an extra level or two for parties at that level. The only one I can find so far is the Refugees of the Tsar, and that's next to impossible for the party to find. Most of the encounters left in the dungeon are either: CR "kills the party in one turn", or CR "is killed by the party in one turn". There isn't an in-between. The last real threat they faced was when they were ambushed by a vampire-wizard in one of the middle levels, but he died in one round to massive DPR. That was many sessions ago. I've had to make up 90% of the stuff for levels 16+ to keep the party challenged.
Interesting, and will be taken into consideration for future "mystery areas".
Its tough in that range to get things that are not "CR "kills the party in one turn", or CR "is killed by the party in one turn"." Having a small, self contained area that is level-appropriate (I hate that term) for 16-20th level characters is challenging. We should be able to come up with something, maybe in the RA Subscription format. I'll put some brain cells into it
SG
I think the last time I had a party of that level in RA I was playing the 3.0 version! I do have some players with characters waiting in the wings waiting to play though while the group gets to that level. Three of them are currently in Zelkor's Ferry running the place. They provide a service to the party crafting items at full market value and are making a small sum doing so, very merchantilistic!
If there's one problem with the dungeon, it's high level (like 16-20) content is lacking. I know this may sound odd, but it really needs an extra level or two for parties at that level. The only one I can find so far is the Refugees of the Tsar, and that's next to impossible for the party to find. Most of the encounters left in the dungeon are either: CR "kills the party in one turn", or CR "is killed by the party in one turn". There isn't an in-between. The last real threat they faced was when they were ambushed by a vampire-wizard in one of the middle levels, but he died in one round to massive DPR. That was many sessions ago. I've had to make up 90% of the stuff for levels 16+ to keep the party challenged.Interesting, and will be taken into consideration for future "mystery areas".
Its tough in that range to get things that are not "CR "kills the party in one turn", or CR "is killed by the party in one turn"." Having a small, self contained area that is level-appropriate (I hate that term) for 16-20th level characters is challenging. We should be able to come up with something, maybe in the RA Subscription format. I'll put some brain cells into it
SG
A lot of the times it's the tactics you give enemies. A lot of the encounters seem to be built around a much lower level party encountering them than expected, and half the tactics are made moot because the enemies just don't have the stats to make it work. Take, for example, the third temple of orcus. I'll deconstruct the paragraph piece by peice in this spoiler to show a lot of the flaws.
(Note: I have no idea how S&S works, so I can't say anything for that rule set of RA. This is just for the Pathfinder version.)
Maphistal avoids combat until all his servitors are slain, summoning a balor as a last resort if it appears they might lose. He uses blasphemy, power word stun, and other spells from behind he illusory wall until he is discovered. (This is fine)
The priests cast spells as needed, using all their protective and enhancement spells before entering combat if possible. The acolytes cast aid, darkness, and ghoul touch, then wade into melee, relying on their god’s protection. The priests’ actions parallel that of the acolytes, but they also cast align weapon and bane or prayer before joining combat, and animate dead (creating 5 skeletons each from the bones ever present on this level, for a total of 20 skeletons). (If a party has reached this level, they are probably 15+. The priest and the Acolytes are cannon fodder, and have no reason to try to buff up before fighting. Their effectiveness before and after the buffs is almost indistinguishable against a high level party. They should focus on using things that have immediate effects, like channeling negative energy with their selective channel to do whatever damage they can to the PCs, instead of wasting time giving them a +1 to hit that will go to waste as they disappear from a failed reflex save)
When the opportunity presents itself, each priest uses his blindness or hold person spells. (Good tactic, though rather futile when combining decent saves and the "take 2" rule)
As befits their chaotic evil nature, the higher-level priests let the acolytes bear the brunt of combat (e.g., melee with PC fighters). (Good tactic)
The mariliths use spells as well, but are careful with their cloudkill spells to avoid slaying their own priests. They only use this spell if they can position it to include only demons and undead in its area of effect. They also may summon hezrous to assist in the combat. Only after the PCs are all engaged do they enter combat. (Makes sense, though their melee prowess highly outmatches their casting. You should have left their blade barrier instead of changing it to cloud kill. It is a much more effective spell against high level parties.)
The wraiths and shadows simply attack until slain. (Would make a note of how they should gang up on weak targets, like wizards)
None of the creatures in this room offers quarter or retreats. They all fight to the death. Remember, undead creatures cannot be turned or rebuked in this room. (Goes without saying.)
A lot of this is nit picking, and I'm a munchkin so I can't help but think in numbers, but this IS Rappan Athuk. Encounters aren't meant to be fair, and their tactics should show this. I have honestly had to completely rework this encounter for my own PC's due to their power level (bumping it up to an estimated CR 25), and other encounters I've had to cheat the tactics to keep the encounter going for more than a round. It would almost benefit you to have a munchkin or two on staff (if you don't already) that check over encounters to see how they play out mechanically, and how they fair against different party make-ups. A lot of other tactics I've seen are so difficult to make work, or take half a dozen rounds to set up, that every monster is dead and looted before it's plan could have feasibly taken effect.
The one other thing that could make a large difference is having dynamic encounters. Shifting walls, pit falls, arrow traps, etc. An open room leaves infinite possibility open to the PC's, and allows them to operate at full capacity. If you're looking to make truly challenging encounters, you have to dictate the flow of battle from the beginning with outside factors. While a few have passive effects like Dispel Good and Desecrate, most of the encounters boil down to "you open a door, there's enemies, roll initiative."
Sorry, if this sounds like a rant, it's just meant to be observations. It's quite frustrating keeping my party challenged at times. The campaign is really well done, and I plan on using it for a long time to come, but it just kind of falls apart at high levels (like most things in Pathfinder). If anything I've said here is wrong, feel free to point it out. I'm not a perfect person, and I'd rather learn than be ignorant of my mistakes.