Spell combat and combat expertise


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

The recent FAQ about the magus:

FAQ wrote:

Magus: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?

No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.

PRD wrote:

Spell combat:

...
As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
...

From this text it an attack but not any form of attack action. The FAQ reiterate that.

PRD wrote:

Combat Expertise

...
You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an [b]attack or a full-attack action[b] with a melee weapon.
...

AFAIK you can't even fight defensively as:

PRD wrote:


Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

require you to use a standard action to fight and you are using a full round action and

PRD wrote:
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.

require you to use a full attack action.

I am missing something?

Grand Lodge

I don't believe you are missing anything. RAW, now supported by FAQ, don't support using Combat Expertise or fighting defensively with spell combat.

Sczarni

I really think we've gone too far with this analyst's fine tooth comb in the "full-round action" debate. It's going to break the game. A common sense application of fighting defensively and combat expertise would be that you can do either or both anytime you swing your weapon at a bad guy, regardless of whether it's spell combat, a full attack, a single attack, whatever.

That said, I believe, given the current hot mess, that you may be correct.


Diego Rossi wrote:

The recent FAQ about the magus:

FAQ wrote:

Magus: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects?

No. Spell combat is its own kind of full-round action, and is not a full attack action.

PRD wrote:

Spell combat:

...
As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty).
...

From this text it an attack but not any form of attack action. The FAQ reiterate that.

PRD wrote:

Combat Expertise

...
You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an [b]attack or a full-attack action[b] with a melee weapon.
...

AFAIK you can't even fight defensively as:

PRD wrote:


Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC until the start of your next turn.

require you to use a standard action to fight and you are using a full round action and

PRD wrote:
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn.

require you to use a full attack action.

I am missing something?

Wowzers--with the new FAQ, what is the Hasted Assault Magus Arcana for then?

Liberty's Edge

You use it when you aren't using spell combat.
As the arcana points are few and very useful and the magus arcana even less, for me it is in the list of "non useful" arcana.
Casting haste work better. It last longer (you get hasted assault at 9th level, you need intelligence 28 to get a duration of 9 rounds for hasted assault) and it help your friends. The only advantages of hasted assault are that it can't be dispelled and activating it don't provoke.


Combat Expertise (Combat): "You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon."

.

Two ways to break up that sentence.

You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an (attack) or a (full-attack) action with a melee weapon.

vs

You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an (attack) or a (full-attack action) with a melee weapon.

The first one means either an attack action or a full-attack action, either one with a melee weapon. This doesn't work with Spell Combat.

The second one means either an attack with a melee weapon, or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. This works with Spell Combat.

I think grammatically it leans towards the first one, because otherwise it seems odd to mention 'action' at all, and only a bit less odd to mention full-attack, since a full-attack is generally comprised of at least one attack.


Diego Rossi wrote:

You use it when you aren't using spell combat.

As the arcana points are few and very useful and the magus arcana even less, for me it is in the list of "non useful" arcana.
Casting haste work better. It last longer (you get hasted assault at 9th level, you need intelligence 28 to get a duration of 9 rounds for hasted assault) and it help your friends. The only advantages of hasted assault are that it can't be dispelled and activating it don't provoke.

Well it's also a swift, I guess, so you can combine it with other actions. But it's nearly useless compared to worst-case scenario just using Spell Combat with arcane mark for the same number of attacks.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

You use it when you aren't using spell combat. As the arcana points are few and very useful and the magus arcana even less, for me it is in the list of "non useful" arcana.

Casting haste work better. It last longer (you get hasted assault at 9th level, you need intelligence 28 to get a duration of 9 rounds for hasted assault) and it help your friends. The only advantages of hasted assault are that it can't be dispelled and activating it don't provoke.
Well it's also a swift, I guess, so you can combine it with other actions. But it's nearly useless compared to worst-case scenario just using Spell Combat with arcane mark for the same number of attacks.

This actually greatly nerfs one of the secondary abilities you gain for the Spell Dancer archetype as well; at a higher level you gain the ability to (once per combat) haste yourself for one round while spell dancing.

I suppose that it still could have its uses, like casting a spell with charges and then activating your mini-haste on a full attack action to get the extra attack. Would be nice if there were more spells with charges, though.

As to Combat Expertise, I think Grick makes a decent case that it's an ambiguous wording, although I have always read it as "...attack [action (implied)] or full attack action..."

Re: Fighting defensively, I did not allow magi to combine the two even before the FAQ. I always read it as clear that spell combat was a full-round action (of some type) on its own, meaning that it could not be used in conjunction with something that specifically stated it required a standard or full-round action itself.

Liberty's Edge

Grick wrote:

Combat Expertise (Combat): "You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an attack or a full-attack action with a melee weapon."

.

Two ways to break up that sentence.

You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an (attack) or a (full-attack) action with a melee weapon.

vs

You can only choose to use this feat when you declare that you are making an (attack) or a (full-attack action) with a melee weapon.

The first one means either an attack action or a full-attack action, either one with a melee weapon. This doesn't work with Spell Combat.

The second one means either an attack with a melee weapon, or a full-attack action with a melee weapon. This works with Spell Combat.

I think grammatically it leans towards the first one, because otherwise it seems odd to mention 'action' at all, and only a bit less odd to mention full-attack, since a full-attack is generally comprised of at least one attack.

Allowing it to activate on an (attack) would allow you to start a full attack, make all the attacks beside the last one, and then activate combat expertise with the last attack, or activate it when making a AoO (something that can be done with power attack).

I think that that is not RAI or RAW.

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