Sepia Snake Sigil in Society Play


Pathfinder Society

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2/5 ****

Sepia Snake Sigil (and to a lesser extent, Explosive Runes) look like corner case spells for Society play.

Unless there's a rule specific to Society play (and I hope there is...) it looks like you could cast these spells repeatedly on down time traveling to destinations in a scenario, and "bank" them for future use.

Sepia Snake Sigil is a "save or suck" spell that's particularly effective on infiltration missions: Hand NPC piece of paper, tell them it's an expose on Zarta Draleen's favorite bedroom habits, let them make the saving throw when they read the juicy details.

Honestly, I suspect that most of the kidnappings in Golarion use this spell. :)

My Paladin/Shadowdancer looks like she could duplicate the effect with Shadow Call (a 1/day Shadow Conjuration spell like effect), and could accumulate instances of this on her "travel days", making a mockery of the 1/day ability. (And it's very appropriate for a Paladin, because it takes prisoners without harming them, which is what attracted my attention.)

So, is there a rule preventing this abuse of banking your spell slots on off days in these two spells?

Dark Archive 2/5

Yes there is.

Quote:

All spells and effects end at the end of a scenario with the following exceptions:

• Spells and effects with permanent or instantaneous duration that heal damage or remove harmful conditions remain in effect at the end of the scenario.
• Afflictions and harmful conditions obtained during a scenario remain until healed and carry over from scenario to scenario.
• A character may have one each of the following spells that carries overs from scenario to scenario: continual flame, masterwork transformation, secret chest, and secret page.

Your spells are not on the list, so you can't "bank the spells".

2/5 ****

Nebten: I know they don't persist between scenarios. Some scenarios have "And then you spend 7 days travelling to {Obscure Location}" which would appear to permit you to bank them on your travel days - since they're not persisting between scenarios.

Dark Archive 2/5

If you got the days to burn, go nuts.

Grand Lodge 4/5

at 500 gold a pop too!

1/5

Blood money works wonders I hear :)

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Like many other ways to potentially "break the mod" don't be surprised if/when you run across a GM that says, "Congratulations, you win. Here is your chronicle sheet. See ya in three hours for the next session."

My advice for society play is, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is and you should carefully consider what effect it might have on the GoodRightFun of everyone at the table, including the GM. YMMV

Sczarni

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Like many other ways to potentially "break the mod" don't be surprised if/when you run across a GM that says, "Congratulations, you win. Here is your chronicle sheet. See ya in three hours for the next session."

My advice for society play is, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is and you should carefully consider what effect it might have on the GoodRightFun of everyone at the table, including the GM. YMMV

I would be very surprised if a GM kicked me out of a game for trying something different, and I would report them immediately to the PFS leadership for it, even if they offered to give me the Chronicle sheet.

Even if you get the rewards for the Chronicle, that is not the point of playing in the PFS. Playing is the point, and the chronicle rewards are not a worthwhile "consolation prize" for getting booted from a table just because a GM doesn't want to deal with an idea they haven't seen before, especially on the basis of how it might impact the remainder of the session.

You bring up the GoodRightFun of the rest of the table, but what about the GoodRightFun of the player whose only crime is playing their character according to the rules. There is a general assumption that the player hasn't read the adventure, so they don't know that this particular action will be game breaking, they're just doing something that makes tactical sense during the down time they were provided.
Planning ahead and preparing for the unknown is not a violation of any rules. PFS assumes the players will employ planning and tactics and use any and all resources they have at their disposal, and unless/until it is officially restricted, there is no excuse for kicking a player just because they are thinking ahead. If they start being a jerk about it, or ruining it for the rest of the players, then that is a violation of the rules, and by all means, kick them out, but do it for that reason, not because you just don't want to deal with their legal character.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Anarkitty wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:

Like many other ways to potentially "break the mod" don't be surprised if/when you run across a GM that says, "Congratulations, you win. Here is your chronicle sheet. See ya in three hours for the next session."

My advice for society play is, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is and you should carefully consider what effect it might have on the GoodRightFun of everyone at the table, including the GM. YMMV

I would be very surprised if a GM kicked me out of a game for trying something different, and I would report them immediately to the PFS leadership for it, even if they offered to give me the Chronicle sheet.

Even if you get the rewards for the Chronicle, that is not the point of playing in the PFS. Playing is the point, and the chronicle rewards are not a worthwhile "consolation prize" for getting booted from a table just because a GM doesn't want to deal with an idea they haven't seen before, especially on the basis of how it might impact the remainder of the session.

You bring up the GoodRightFun of the rest of the table, but what about the GoodRightFun of the player whose only crime is playing their character according to the rules. There is a general assumption that the player hasn't read the adventure, so they don't know that this particular action will be game breaking, they're just doing something that makes tactical sense during the down time they were provided.
Planning ahead and preparing for the unknown is not a violation of any rules. PFS assumes the players will employ planning and tactics and use any and all resources they have at their disposal, and unless/until it is officially restricted, there is no excuse for kicking a player just because they are thinking ahead. If they start being a jerk about it, or ruining it for the rest of the players, then that is a violation of the rules, and by all means, kick them out, but do it for that reason, not because you just don't want to deal with their legal character.

The conundrum with organized play, is that RAW rules the roost. Unlike in a home game, where a GM can nix an idea because it is game breaking, in PFS, GM's don't likely have that option.

As such, it is incredibly poor taste for players, in organized play, to create situations where they essentially one-shot the scenario, nobody really gets to enjoy the scenario, and there is zero challenge.

As a GM that's a waste of my time.

As a player that didn't do that and had to endure one that did, its a waste of my time.

5/5

Anarkitty wrote:
Bob Jonquet wrote:

Like many other ways to potentially "break the mod" don't be surprised if/when you run across a GM that says, "Congratulations, you win. Here is your chronicle sheet. See ya in three hours for the next session."

My advice for society play is, if something sounds too good to be true, it probably is and you should carefully consider what effect it might have on the GoodRightFun of everyone at the table, including the GM. YMMV

I would be very surprised if a GM kicked me out of a game for trying something different, and I would report them immediately to the PFS leadership for it, even if they offered to give me the Chronicle sheet.

Even if you get the rewards for the Chronicle, that is not the point of playing in the PFS. Playing is the point, and the chronicle rewards are not a worthwhile "consolation prize" for getting booted from a table just because a GM doesn't want to deal with an idea they haven't seen before, especially on the basis of how it might impact the remainder of the session.

You bring up the GoodRightFun of the rest of the table, but what about the GoodRightFun of the player whose only crime is playing their character according to the rules. There is a general assumption that the player hasn't read the adventure, so they don't know that this particular action will be game breaking, they're just doing something that makes tactical sense during the down time they were provided.
Planning ahead and preparing for the unknown is not a violation of any rules. PFS assumes the players will employ planning and tactics and use any and all resources they have at their disposal, and unless/until it is officially restricted, there is no excuse for kicking a player just because they are thinking ahead. If they start being a jerk about it, or ruining it for the rest of the players, then that is a violation of the rules, and by all means, kick them out, but do it for that reason, not because you just don't want to deal with their legal character.

It's not a matter of kicking someone off the table. It's a matter of saying "okay, you defeated the scenario. Good job. Here's your chronicle with all the rewards you earned. You have the congratulations of Venture Captain X." And then everyone else wishes they could actually play out the story as intended instead of having that opportunity ruined. Then as the player leaves, "In the future please be more respectful of the other players and the GM. Some of us want to enjoy the entire story and play experience."

Personally if this happened early enough in a session I would give the player their chronicle and offer a choice to the rest of the players. They can either: take a chronicle right then with appropriate rewards or we (everyone except the player who ended the scenario) act like the scenario-ending event didn't occur and play out the rest of the story. I'm not going to short change everyone else of the full experience, especially since you generally can't replay scenarios.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Maybe I missed something, but how does a successful use of sepia snake sigil or explosive runes end the scenario? How did we get from those spells to "Congratulations, here's your sheet"?

I'm looking at those spells and seeing a way to get past a guard that you were supposed to get past, but doing it without combat rounds. So what? How in the world does that end the scenario? I've gotten past lots of guards with lots of different PCs, and none of those scenarios would have gone any differently if we'd gotten past the guards by using those spells instead of with charm person or a round and a half of combat.

If a GM sees an example of a 3rd-level spell getting past a guard and their mind immediately goes to "what to do when a PC breaks the whole scenario", that GM has some baggage that needs to get resolved.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jiggy wrote:

Maybe I missed something, but how does a successful use of sepia snake sigil or explosive runes end the scenario? How did we get from those spells to "Congratulations, here's your sheet"?

I'm looking at those spells and seeing a way to get past a guard that you were supposed to get past, but doing it without combat rounds. So what? How in the world does that end the scenario? I've gotten past lots of guards with lots of different PCs, and none of those scenarios would have gone any differently if we'd gotten past the guards by using those spells instead of with charm person or a round and a half of combat.

If a GM sees an example of a 3rd-level spell getting past a guard and their mind immediately goes to "what to do when a PC breaks the whole scenario", that GM has some baggage that needs to get resolved.

OP was talking about creating a crap load of them during the "travel-time" from place to place within a scenario, and essentially find a way to use them in every encounter to end every encounter before it begins.

That's an munchkiny waste of my time as a GM.

5/5

Jiggy wrote:

Maybe I missed something, but how does a successful use of sepia snake sigil or explosive runes end the scenario? How did we get from those spells to "Congratulations, here's your sheet"?

I'm looking at those spells and seeing a way to get past a guard that you were supposed to get past, but doing it without combat rounds. So what? How in the world does that end the scenario? I've gotten past lots of guards with lots of different PCs, and none of those scenarios would have gone any differently if we'd gotten past the guards by using those spells instead of with charm person or a round and a half of combat.

If a GM sees an example of a 3rd-level spell getting past a guard and their mind immediately goes to "what to do when a PC breaks the whole scenario", that GM has some baggage that needs to get resolved.

It wouldn't break most scenarios. Most of the time this spell wouldn't do much more to a scenario than a slumber hex witch, so go right ahead and use it. There are occasionally scenarios where disabling the right person would effectively end the scenario though. Those are the situations to look out for as a player and think about holding back.

When looking at spells or other abilities with potentially powerful effects it's always a good idea to keep in mind how those would impact not just the game mechanics (winning an encounter), but the play experience of everyone present as well.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

EDIT: Ninja'd. This was in response to Andrew Christian.

I have yet to play or run a scenario where every encounter is against someone who is willing to read something you hand them. Heck, most scenarios don't even involve ONE situation where you could use those spells effectively.

So how is anyone coming to the conclusion that a pile of explosive runes could EVER wreck a scenario?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jiggy wrote:

EDIT: Ninja'd. This was in response to Andrew Christian.

I have yet to play or run a scenario where every encounter is against someone who is willing to read something you hand them. Heck, most scenarios don't even involve ONE situation where you could use those spells effectively.

So how is anyone coming to the conclusion that a pile of explosive runes could EVER wreck a scenario?

It is assumed, unless stated otherwise (savages, tribesmen, et. al.) that everyone in Golarion knows how to read.

You walk up with a giant board with words on it, as you advance on the enemy.

They probably won't be able to help themselves but read it, even if their initial intent is hostile.

1/5

Well you do have some room to say as a GM that it doesn't work because they are too distracted by combat to read 25 words of text. 25 words is quite a lot to read when walking down the street let alone during combat.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Mike Lindner wrote:
It wouldn't break most scenarios. Most of the time this spell wouldn't do much more to a scenario than a slumber hex witch, so go right ahead and use it. There are occasionally scenarios where disabling the right person would effectively end the scenario though. Those are the situations to look out for as a player and think about holding back.

Well, this seems to be the first time in this thread that anyone's made that distinction.

Read Bob Jonquet's post early in the thread. It wasn't "There will be times when this could break a scenario, in which case I'd do X". It was a categorical condemnation of using those spells. Using them at all was equated with ruining the game for everyone and breaking the scenario.

And when someone took issue with such a blanket condemnation of using a legal option, the stance was reaffirmed, again without any sort of "in certain scenarios that revolve around one key person" caveat at all.

I'll definitely grant you that there are some scenarios where disabling the right person breaks everything. But I don't believe for a second that that's what anyone was talking about prior to my post. A thread was started about someone being proactive enough with their spell slots that they could be prepared for a very specific type of situation, and people immediately jumped to "ruin the game", "wasting my time", "being a dick to the other players" and so on.

There's a big difference between "Careful, there might be times when that could cause a problem" and "Cast that spell and you're ruining the game and wasting everyone's time and you can just leave".

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

To put it another way, I once blocked a PC from using scent because it would have reduced most of the scenario to a one-minute spotlight on that one PC. But the fact that that happened does not mean that if someone starts a thread about getting access to the scent ability, that I'll come in and say "Like many other ways to potentially 'break the mod' don't be surprised if/when you run across a GM that says, 'Congratulations, you win. Here is your chronicle sheet. See ya in three hours for the next session.'"


You very much should be surprised if you run into a gm that rude, I thought PFS had higher standards?

5/5 5/5 ***

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

AdAstraGames: I don't see why this wouldn't work, nor do I see why this is abusive. Both sepia snake sigil and explosive runes will require the NPC in question to read the book/note/scroll/whatever, so you're either looking at a combat successfully avoided already (because the NPCs are willing to talk to you in the first place and accept your reading material) or an encounter successfully bypassed peacefully (paralyzing a guard who had no intention of fighting you but no intention of letting you pass). Both sound like winsauce to me, and proactively preparing this spell on travel days is just being a smart player. That's not broken, that's good preparation. I don't understand why preparation is being treated as a four letter word.

Bob and Andy: because I don't understand why you're reacting so negatively to this use of this ability, can you explain to me exactly what about the process AdAstraGames described is broken? Perhaps we should take it to PM or email or something to not derail this thread further, but I don't see why it was so necessary to rebuke him for the suggestion that players either a) prepare sepia snake sigil or b) proactively use resources on otherwise wasted travel time? Was it one of those, or both, that was inappropriate in your eyes? Why is that action or series of actions inappropriate? I ask in part because when my spellcasters have prep time, they are proactive with it. I've been back in Society play for a mere nine months, so I want to know if I've missed some important etiquette in the three and a half years between when I left PFS the first time and when I returned.

5/5 5/55/55/5

CWheezy wrote:
You very much should be surprised if you run into a gm that rude, I thought PFS had higher standards?

Nope, no standards at all. Anyone can grab a number and start running.

Sczarni 4/5

CWheezy,

We are all people, made and born from flesh with feelings. GM's are there to have fun but with mainly granting the spotlight to players.

So far, I didn't see any person that tried to deliberately break the scenario. Some were optimizers, sure, even I am slightly, but a real jerk I have yet to meet.

I don't understand among other things how did this turn into "Cast that spell and you're ruining the game and wasting everyone's time and you can just leave" as Jiggy said. The spell in question has high material component cost and most of NPCs never really take apples that some unknown stranger offers them.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Ryan Blomquist wrote:

AdAstraGames: I don't see why this wouldn't work, nor do I see why this is abusive. Both sepia snake sigil and explosive runes will require the NPC in question to read the book/note/scroll/whatever, so you're either looking at a combat successfully avoided already (because the NPCs are willing to talk to you in the first place and accept your reading material) or an encounter successfully bypassed peacefully (paralyzing a guard who had no intention of fighting you but no intention of letting you pass). Both sound like winsauce to me, and proactively preparing this spell on travel days is just being a smart player. That's not broken, that's good preparation. I don't understand why preparation is being treated as a four letter word.

Bob and Andy: because I don't understand why you're reacting so negatively to this use of this ability, can you explain to me exactly what about the process AdAstraGames described is broken? Perhaps we should take it to PM or email or something to not derail this thread further, but I don't see why it was so necessary to rebuke him for the suggestion that players either a) prepare sepia snake sigil or b) proactively use resources on otherwise wasted travel time? Was it one of those, or both, that was inappropriate in your eyes? Why is that action or series of actions inappropriate? I ask in part because when my spellcasters have prep time, they are proactive with it. I've been back in Society play for a mere nine months, so I want to know if I've missed some important etiquette in the three and a half years between when I left PFS the first time and when I returned.

Perhaps we jumped the gun on the exact spells in question. Yes, these spells seem dubious in their ability to completely derail or invalidate the challenge of a scenario. It is interesting some of the ways some players can come up with to use seemingly innocuous spells or abilities to ruin one or more encounters though. With these two spells in general, all you need is a wooden placard with large letters and a well-timed charm person or suggestion to make sure they read, if your bluff or diplomacy check isn’t enough.

But the reaction was because typically, whenever a player suggests that they can make 100 of something in downtime and use “save or suck” spells throughout the scenario without limit to basically make the encounters easier, it’s because they are fishing for comments of legality for a loophole they think they’ve found.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Andrew Christian wrote:
... It is interesting some of the ways some players can come up with to use seemingly innocuous spells or abilities to ruin one or more encounters though. ...

Hey, there, Andy.

Could you explain what you mean by "ruin" an encounter? I've played with several companions who like to use the pit spells. In a lot of cases, those spells eliminate threats.

Druid's Animal Companion: Bark! Bark!
Druid: What's that Lassie? There's a mounted doom knight, trapped in the well?

Color Spray can shut down low-level encounters. (For some oracles, it can shut down mid-level encounters, too.) We've all seen characters who have powrful enchantment spells. As for myself, I walked into "Sanos abduction" with a cleric of Charon, short-curcuiting encounters with a particular type of opponent, and my 9th-level monk is pretty good at tripping opponents.

I'm not talking about players trying to build a super character, unless preparing color spray itself, or simply having the class ability to channel negative energy, is considered building a super character. I'm talking about characters who happen to face encounters -- maybe a string of encounters -- that can't deal with them.

What's the alternative?

No, that's a serious question. Let's say that LeDon's "pit fiend" wizard decides not to cast a pit under the shambling mound, because it would end the encounter. Or my monk doesn't trip-lock the golem. Or Thea's Heavens Oracle doesn't color spray the enemy cleric in the face, 'cause it would 'ruin' the encounter.

So, the encounter goes off, and PCs take a lot of damage, and some of them die. Because the guy who could have prevented the bloodshed decided that taking propylactic action wouldn't be fair, or fun, or ...

in a home campaign, the GM would make the encounters tougher. In Organized Play, that's not legal. Some GMs do it, anyway. It seems like Bob and you are advocating kicking the player from the table, rewarded with a booby prize. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

4-EX: Day of the Demon:
We have a guy who has a wizard locally who’s familiar is a lyraken (sp) azata. They have permanent detect magic and detect evil as part of their Senses. Tell me how that couldn’t essentially ruin the entire flavor of this scenario before it really got started? Sure a paladin could do the same, but has to take an action to do so. Same with a wizard. The BBEG could do something in the face of seeing an action being taken. Not so if its always permanent (see the permanency thread—this fits there too.)

Ending an encounter by using any number of spells or abilities is fine. I have no problem with that. I’ve ended a few BBEG encounters with baleful polymorph before.

The issue is more when a loophole is found to essentially have a limitless supply of save or suck spells available.

Is this such a case? I suppose that’s debatable.

Ruining an encounter or scenario is where such a loophole basically ends the scenario or completely ruins the story for everyone else, because before any story element can be relayed to the players and before any ambiance of the story revealed, the encounter is over.

I have not yet ever kicked anyone, for any reason, from a table of mine. But it would sorely tempt me if I had a player who consistently pulled loophole after loophole out of their backside to basically render every encounter impotent to where it’s a waste of my time to be the GM, and it’s a waste of every other player’s time to try and play.

We are talking an extreme situation here. Not someone who just uses the spells on their spell list and the magic items they have normally or even creatively.

The example above smelled of “fishing for message board consensus that this would be legal, so now I can exploit a loophole that I haven’t explained yet.”

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Could you give me an example of such a loophole?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

They are all over the message boards.

Take your pick from blood money working on raise dead so it works for free to somebody wanting to use fabricate to make money so they have 25,000gp of cash they didn't earn.

The main one I'm thinking of, I can't remember it exactly, but I do recall that Mike posted up that sure, its a loophole, technically legal, that not all loopholes can be closed, and that if he hears of that particular loophole being abused, he will remove the right for folks to have something nice. I'd have to go searching through the message boards for it.

While neither blood money nor fabricate are going to ruin a scenario directly, they could raise the average wealth of that character to a point where they have far more wealth than they should at their level. And folks who exploit these types of loopholes are also the folks who tend to play up every chance they get, and exploit other loopholes to boot. So it isn't just one item making them broken, its an amalgamation of everything they do that rides the line of legality within PFSOP.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Derail for Day of the Demon spoilers:

Spoiler:
Believe it or not, that enemy is immune to Detect Evil. I forget exactly how it works, since I haven't read the scenario, and just had the GM explain it real quickly after I played it. But basically, she's got a long term buff spell in place that deflects the Detect Evil to another creature or something.

As for Sepia Snake Sigil, it costs 500 gp per casting, you have to work to make the bad guy read it, there's a saving throw, and it only works on one enemy. This is clearly less broken than Color Spray or Sleep at low levels, Slumber Hex at any level, or any number of other save-or-suck spells and abilities. Not that I'm saying any of those are broken, just that they're closer to it than SSS. So why are we having this conversation?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Fromper wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Derail for Day of the Demon spoilers:

** spoiler omitted **

As for Sepia Snake Sigil, it costs 500 gp per casting, you have to work to make the bad guy read it, there's a saving throw, and it only works on one enemy. This is clearly less broken than Color Spray or Sleep at low levels, Slumber Hex at any level, or any number of other save-or-suck spells and abilities. Not that I'm saying any of those are broken, just that they're closer to it than SSS. So why are we having this conversation?

Day of The Demon Derail:
misdirection which allows a DC 12 saving throw to get past.
Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Fromper wrote:
So why are we having this conversation?
Andrew Christian wrote:
because typically

Liberty's Edge 5/5

One interesting tidbit.

Sepia snake sigil basically puts its victim into a state of stasis. No effects do their damage (bleeding, poison, disease, or even just dying cause you are at negative hps). And it lasts for 1d4 days +1 day per caster level.

So this could be used as a safeguard against dying horribly by some poison because you are 2 weeks away from town.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Cool. (But the recipient needs to trigger the sigil, so he or she has to be conscious.)

5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Fromper wrote:

As for Sepia Snake Sigil, it costs 500 gp per casting...

The reason it came up for this thread is that it doesn't cost any gold as a spell-like ability (as it from the Shadowdancer "Shadow Call" ability).

Silver Crusade 4/5

Majuba wrote:
Fromper wrote:

As for Sepia Snake Sigil, it costs 500 gp per casting...

The reason it came up for this thread is that it doesn't cost any gold as a spell-like ability (as it from the Shadowdancer "Shadow Call" ability).

Ok, I didn't understand that part. That still doesn't explain why anyone thinks it's any more broken than a level 1 wizard casting sleep on a BBEG in a tier 1-2 scenario.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Fromper wrote:
Majuba wrote:
Fromper wrote:

As for Sepia Snake Sigil, it costs 500 gp per casting...

The reason it came up for this thread is that it doesn't cost any gold as a spell-like ability (as it from the Shadowdancer "Shadow Call" ability).
Ok, I didn't understand that part. That still doesn't explain why anyone thinks it's any more broken than a level 1 wizard casting sleep on a BBEG in a tier 1-2 scenario.

If you can make a crapload of "scrolls" or "placards" for free that are essentially save or suck, and they don't use up your standard set of resources (spell slots, cash for consumables, etc.)

How is that not broken in and of itself?

Shadow Lodge 2/5

It's not any more broken. It's just an interesting way to do the same thing a Slumber or Charm Person does. And as far as the Shadow Call version, it might be free, but it allows an extra saving throw to disbelieve.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Its not that a standard casting of sepia snake sigil is any more powerful than color spray or sleep. Its actually less powerful, because the conditions by which you get it to trigger are more difficult to replicate time and time again.

If you cast it, and use up one of your daily spell slots. Have at it. The roleplay around trying to get a hostile NPC to read it could be quite fun and funny.

But if you exploit an ability that lets you get even 5 of these for free, that don't expend consumable and limited resources... then that's a loophole, and abusing it is tantamount to ruining a game.

2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Some responses to this thread make me wonder why some people play roleplaying games. Seriously, if how a character gets past a challenge is annoying to people, then they need to be running their own game with their own friends. Stating over and over again what is bad wrong fun simply ruins the experience.

True stories:
I've seen people annoyed when diplomacy was used to get past a challenge.
I've seen people annoyed when combat was started when no one wanted to use diplomacy.
I've seen people annoyed that people were good at beating things to death and/or have good defenses.
I've seen people annoyed that charm person wrecked an encounter before it started.
I've seen people annoyed that various save or sucks and wrecked an encounter during combat.
I've seen people annoyed when crafty tactics were used to negate encounters.
I've seen people annoyed when players suggested simple tactics, such as focusing fire in a near TPK.
I've seen people annoyed when others scout ahead.
I've seen people annoyed when others use stealth.

So the lessons people have tried to teach me are: don't use diplomacy, use diplomacy, don't be good at combat, don't use save or sucks, don't negate encounters in any way, don't scout ahead, don't use stealth, don't suggest tactics for the party even if the party is about to die.

Not everyone's shtick works together. Not everyone wants to play the game the same way. People just need to learn this and move on. Crying Bad Wrong Fun all the time simply ruins it for everyone.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Andrew Christian wrote:

If you cast it, and use up one of your daily spell slots. Have at it. ....

But if you ... don't expend consumable and limited resources... then that's a loophole, and abusing it is tantamount to ruining a game.

Alright, so if we're about to delve a dungeon and I cast extended mage armor and contingency and maybe another all-day buff or two that morning before we kick in the door, I'm golden. But if it's a 7 day trek to the site, and on morning #7 I prepare extended mage armor and contingency and whatever else, and then cast them before bed with enough duration that they'll last for the entire 8th day while I get my spell slots back, then suddenly I'm abusing those spells and exploiting a loophole and I've ruined the game.

Good to know.

Silver Crusade 4/5

Andrew Christian wrote:

Its not that a standard casting of sepia snake sigil is any more powerful than color spray or sleep. Its actually less powerful, because the conditions by which you get it to trigger are more difficult to replicate time and time again.

If you cast it, and use up one of your daily spell slots. Have at it. The roleplay around trying to get a hostile NPC to read it could be quite fun and funny.

But if you exploit an ability that lets you get even 5 of these for free, that don't expend consumable and limited resources... then that's a loophole, and abusing it is tantamount to ruining a game.

As you said yourself, just getting an NPC to read it could be a problem. I keep thinking Beguiling Gift is a good try here, but that gives the NPC two different saves, vs just one for the Sigil.

In the short time of a Society scenario, with only a few encounters per session, how often is it likely to be helpful twice in the same scenario? And really, if it is useful twice in the same scenario, then you probably aren't going to need most of your other spell slots, because you just bypassed two encounters. So "abusing" the fact that you're able to cast it extra times without using spell slots won't really matter.

Really, I just don't see what the big deal is. Again, I can think of at least a few other spells that I think are closer to broken than this.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

If you cast it, and use up one of your daily spell slots. Have at it. ....

But if you ... don't expend consumable and limited resources... then that's a loophole, and abusing it is tantamount to ruining a game.

Alright, so if we're about to delve a dungeon and I cast extended mage armor and contingency and maybe another all-day buff or two that morning before we kick in the door, I'm golden. But if it's a 7 day trek to the site, and on morning #7 I prepare extended mage armor and contingency and whatever else, and then cast them before bed with enough duration that they'll last for the entire 8th day while I get my spell slots back, then suddenly I'm abusing those spells and exploiting a loophole and I've ruined the game.

Good to know.

Oh for crying out loud Jiggy! Will you stop twisting my words to mean what you KNOW they don’t mean? You play at my tables often enough to know how I GM!

There is a moment when you know if something is legit, and when something is not.

If you want to use the time traveled in a scenario to rock the scenario, have at it.

But using a couple spell slots the night before for 24-hour spells is hardly the game breaking stuff I’m talking about, and if you really read the OP’s post, you’d know that.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Fromper wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

Its not that a standard casting of sepia snake sigil is any more powerful than color spray or sleep. Its actually less powerful, because the conditions by which you get it to trigger are more difficult to replicate time and time again.

If you cast it, and use up one of your daily spell slots. Have at it. The roleplay around trying to get a hostile NPC to read it could be quite fun and funny.

But if you exploit an ability that lets you get even 5 of these for free, that don't expend consumable and limited resources... then that's a loophole, and abusing it is tantamount to ruining a game.

As you said yourself, just getting an NPC to read it could be a problem. I keep thinking Beguiling Gift is a good try here, but that gives the NPC two different saves, vs just one for the Sigil.

In the short time of a Society scenario, with only a few encounters per session, how often is it likely to be helpful twice in the same scenario? And really, if it is useful twice in the same scenario, then you probably aren't going to need most of your other spell slots, because you just bypassed two encounters. So "abusing" the fact that you're able to cast it extra times without using spell slots won't really matter.

Really, I just don't see what the big deal is. Again, I can think of at least a few other spells that I think are closer to broken than this.

It sets a precedent. If its ok for this spell, why not any number of other choices that could be directly more problematic?

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Andy, I'm not twisting your words; quite the opposite, in fact: I'm applying your words at face value in order to demonstrate that they didn't really represent your true meaning in the first place.

Of course I know that you'd have no issue with casting long-duration buffs the night before a planned event. However, doing so completely satisfies the set of conditions which you qualify a course of action as being abusive, exploitative, etc.

So if something fits all your criteria, but doesn't qualify as the type of thing your stated criteria define, then the only conclusion is that those aren't really your criteria (or at least not all of them).

That is, there is some means by which you determine that something is abusive, that is NOT the gaining of an effect without expending limited resources.

I (and I'm sure probably Chris, and others) would be very interested in finding out what that means is.

2/5

Andrew Christian wrote:


It sets a precedent. If its ok for this spell, why not any number of other choices that could be directly more problematic?

There is a great deal of precedent for these sorts of spells. Just look at goodberry or contingency. BROKEN I say!

4/5

I think the focus is too much on how unlimited Sepia Snake Sigil or Explosive Runes could ruin a scenario.

The real question I see is: If a scenario contains travel time, what can players do with that time? If I've got to spend a few weeks sailing from Absalom to Magnimar, can my alchemist create a stock of Alchemist's fires? Can my wizard cast a bunch of eternal flames on everyone's primary, secondary and tertiary weapons? Can my Ninja create a buttload of poison? Can my cleric create a few dozen vials of holy water? How many tricks can my cavalier teach to his new mount? What if half the trip is on ship but the other part is overland, such as going from Absalom to the forests of Andoran?

The big problem I see is that travel times are not often listed in scenarios. So how much time does that alchemist have be craft? Should the GM estimate a time off the Inner Sea map (if he has it, it's not a core assumption,) should he just make an off the cuff ruling, or should he just say no?

Not all, possibly not even any, of these types of things are gamebreaking. But they're definitely an easy source of confusion and table variation. And in the case of alchemists, they certainly can grant characters extra resources beyond WBL and daily resources than they normally have.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jiggy wrote:

Andy, I'm not twisting your words; quite the opposite, in fact: I'm applying your words at face value in order to demonstrate that they didn't really represent your true meaning in the first place.

Of course I know that you'd have no issue with casting long-duration buffs the night before a planned event. However, doing so completely satisfies the set of conditions which you qualify a course of action as being abusive, exploitative, etc.

So if something fits all your criteria, but doesn't qualify as the type of thing your stated criteria define, then the only conclusion is that those aren't really your criteria (or at least not all of them).

That is, there is some means by which you determine that something is abusive, that is NOT the gaining of an effect without expending limited resources.

I (and I'm sure probably Chris, and others) would be very interested in finding out what that means is.

If it is free, essentially unlimited (where the balancing factor is a hard limit--i.e. spell slots or gp cost), and allows them to have a chance to defeat the scenario or most of the encounters before they really get to reveal their story...

Sczarni 4/5

But it's not "free". He has to pay 500 gp for the costs of spell.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Andrew Christian wrote:
If it is free, essentially unlimited (where the balancing factor is a hard limit--i.e. spell slots or gp cost), and allows them to have a chance to defeat the scenario or most of the encounters before they really get to reveal their story...

Ah, okay, earlier it sounded like this was the conclusion drawn when the other criteria were met, rather than itself being a criterion.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Malag wrote:
But it's not "free". He has to pay 500 gp for the costs of spell.

Read upthread

Sczarni 4/5

Read what? About Blood Money? That's a completely different topic. I still don't understand what's it doing in PFS or why it was approved for use. That still doesn't answer why would Sepia Snake Sigil be broken.

Even a Goodberry is broken in certain conditions then.

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