How much of a CR bump would this rate for Dragons?


Advice


Some backstory:
I’ve have a lousy track record with running dragons as a real threat to my players.

The best dragon combat I have run was from Dragon Mountain…and that one WAS very memorable, with 2nd place being the Blue Dragon at the Moathouse in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil…

Other than that, my dragon encounters have been…blah.

In order to give dragons more flexibility and staying power, I was thinking of the following changes to help my apparent blind side in dragon tactics, make the battles more memorable, and to help them stick it out in combat, and rattle my players expectations on what dragons can do…what would ya’ll say should be the increase in CR?

DR: X/Magic? Blech…by the time you are fighting dragons…that is not an issue…I would make that DR X/-
Too much?

Breath Weapon: Just having one type of effect (line, cone) is BORING, and with Knowledge Scores being easy to reach…then they are also predictable by the party. I would give the dragon the following choices when using its breath weapon.

Line: 5 to 10 feet wide (up to 15’ for colossal) and how long depends upon size or age as well , and I would hash that out later (maybe 20’ per age category)

Cone: 5 wide base but would increase based upon size above and would be much shorter than the line (5’ long per age category?)

Burst: Medium range (100’ + 10’ per age category) with a radius based upon age or size category, like 5’ then 10’, then 15’, then 20’ for the Ancient Wyrm for example…

Cloud: Dragon breaths on itself, causing a cloud area of effect around (and on) itself . The area around could start off at 5’ then get bigger per every few age categories, eventually going to as far as 15 to 20’
I could see these being choices becoming available as the dragon gets older, or get them all at once.

So, rough ball park on CR bump?

Liberty's Edge

Probably too much on the damage reduction, you're really kind of screwing the melee guys over with that one.

What really makes dragons strong foes isn't just their stats, its their abilities, their cunning, their spells. Instead of just tossing more stuff on a dragon really try and figure out how to use what the dragon already has.


I wouldn't even bump the CR for that.

I didn't check your math, but as long as your new breath weapon choices match what other dragons of the same CR could do (in other words, you're not expanding or shrinking the area compared to similar different colored dragons) then the CR would be the same, IMO. Heck, even if you did expand the areas, how often would that expansion hit extra PCs that would have been unaffected without it? Probably rare enough that I still wouldn't bump the CR.

Maybe adding +1 CR for the extra DR - that could add up. Then again, I wouldn't make it X/- in the first place. It's just scales. They're thick and hard, sure, but something should get through them. How about DR X/Adamantine or DR X/opposed element (a white dragon's DR could be bypassed by flaming weapons) instead? Or another idea is to follow the rule that a creature type can always hit its own DR, so dragons can bypass other dragon's DRs, so allow people to make weapons out of dragonbone or dragon scales to bypass dragon DR.


Dragons suffer from the same issue that most single creatures suffer from, action economy. They just can't do enough in one round to counter 4+ adventurers.

Here are some suggestions

1) Breath weapon as a swift action
2) Give it pounce
3) Give it the equivalent of metamagic feats but for breath weapons
- Disruptive
- Lingering
- Persistent
- Sickening
- Burning
- Flaring
- Toppling
4) Give it elemental allies of its type
5) Illusion spell that changes it color
6) Give it the ability to heal when it uses its breath weapon (or when affected by the type of energy damage it does)

And yes, your Dragon encounters have been a little blah ;)


If you can find them, I would suggest taking a look at the 3.5 Draconomicon for a host of dragon feats (particularly the metabreath feats) and other dragon options, and also at the 3.5 Monster Manual V for the Xorvintaal/Dragons of the Great Game template, which provides more combat power in exchange for the loss of spellcasting.


A pair of dragons is always better than a single dragon...

Think about it!


One WoTC adventure had an albino dragon. The party thought it was a white dragon, but it was really a red dragon...

I don't use dragons that can't cast spells, and I don't use the spells given to them in the bestiary.

Shadow Lodge

The trick with dragons is that, like most casters, they get a whole lot better once they've got the spellcasting to support Quickened spells every round. Just make sure you've got some useful spells to Quicken. For example, a dragon with Mirror Image that keeps re-upping it whenever the images fade can get really obnoxious for melee.

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