Grab & Constrict: How Do They Work Together?


Rules Questions


In regards to Grab, the PRD wrote:
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability. If the creature can use grab on creatures of other sizes, it is noted in the creature's Special Attacks line. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
In regards to Constrict, the PRD wrote:
Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.

How are the attacks and damage of a creature with both Grab and Constrict resolved on its first successful attack and on each subsequent round?

For instance, the constrictor snake gets a bite plus grab. If its bite is successful, it deals its bite damage and can start a grapple immediately as a free action. If that grapple is successful, does it immediately deal its constrict damage? On subsequent rounds, does it bite and grab again or just constrict? Does it need to make a roll to deal constrict damage or is it dealt automatically?


graypark wrote:

How are the attacks and damage of a creature with both Grab and Constrict resolved on its first successful attack and on each subsequent round?

For instance, the constrictor snake gets a...

Constrict deals damage after a grapple check. So...

Successful Bite? Bite damage plus Grab
Successful Grab? Constrict damage

Next round:

Successful Grapple to maintain? Constrict damage
or
Release (free action), Bite, etc.
or

Grab wrote:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.

In which case it can Grapple (at -20) and Bite.

At least, that's how I think it works. Bruno Breakbone will wander in here eventually to clear things up.


While grappling (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple), a creature could attempt to damage the creature it has grappled with a natural attack, yes?
So in my example, once the constrictor snake has bitten, grabbed and started a successful grapple, on subsequent rounds it could roll to maintain the grapple and if successful, it would deal constrict damage and could attempt to deal additional damage with its bite, yes?


In the D20PFSRD.com site, there is an additional FAQ blurb in the constrict section.

FAQ wrote:

When a creature with the constrict universal monster rule grapples a foe, when does it deal constrict damage?

A creature with constrict deals this additional damage every time it makes a successful grapple check against a foe. This includes the first check to establish the grapple (such as when using the grab universal monster rule).

So thats pretty cut and dry.

Edit: Yes, you have that right there in your last post graypark. You can also do constrict damage on the initiating grapple check as well. Just remember that initiating a grapple is not the same as maintaining a grapple and you should be good (ie you can only deal damage/pin/tie up ect while maintaining, not on the first check). We had been playing that wrong for years and just found out so recently :(

Sovereign Court

Actually it's even nastier.

R1: bite (damage) + attempt to grab
grab succeeds -> constrict damage and establish grapple

R2: attempt to maintain grab
maintain succeeds -> bite damage and constrict damage and maintain grab

Quote:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).


redward wrote:
Grab wrote:
The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply to use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself.
In which case it can Grapple (at -20) and Bite.

The whole "grapple at -20" option doesn't make much sense in Pathfinder because it presumably still takes a standard action to do so (at least, there's nothing stating that it's a free action). So there's not much reason to ever do it.


hogarth wrote:
The whole "grapple at -20" option doesn't make much sense in Pathfinder because it presumably still takes a standard action to do so (at least, there's nothing stating that it's a free action). So there's not much reason to ever do it.

Only if it has ridiculous CMB and wants to be able to take AoOs while it holds and pummels its prey.


Ascalaphus wrote:

Actually it's even nastier.

R1: bite (damage) + attempt to grab
grab succeeds -> constrict damage and establish grapple

R2: attempt to maintain grab
maintain succeeds -> bite damage and constrict damage and maintain grab

Quote:
If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

This is how I read it, as well. In fact, lacking any text to the contrary, you should still be able to get your standard grapple option on top of this.


hogarth wrote:


The whole "grapple at -20" option doesn't make much sense in Pathfinder because it presumably still takes a standard action to do so (at least, there's nothing stating that it's a free action). So there's not much reason to ever do it.

I disagree. There are several reasons you might want to do it; basically it means that you are not grappled for the current round, but your opponent is.

Therefore, for the rest of the round:
* Your opponent has a Dexterity (and hence AC) penalty
* Your opponent has a penalty on attack and CMB
* Your opponent has a serious impediment to spell-casting
* Your opponent can't Stealth away, even with Invisibility
* Your opponent can't make AoE

... and most importantly, you can grapple-lock your opponent with a single attack each round by releasing as a free action and then re-establishing the Grab.

So my pet Roc can grapple the opposing wizard with one attack, grapple the opposing cleric with a second attack, bite someone for damage, and do the same thing next round.

Sovereign Court

Basically, first round you do normal natural weapon damage, grab, then do constrict damage; on subsequent rounds you maintain grab (doing natural weapon damage) then do constrict damage. So the damage on initial and subsequent rounds is the same. And it tends to be a lot of damage.


hogarth wrote:
The whole "grapple at -20" option doesn't make much sense in Pathfinder because it presumably still takes a standard action to do so (at least, there's nothing stating that it's a free action). So there's not much reason to ever do it.

Oh, there’s at least one situation that came up on these boards where taking -20 to not be grappled would be the best option.

Dark Archive

Orfamay Quest wrote:
hogarth wrote:


The whole "grapple at -20" option doesn't make much sense in Pathfinder because it presumably still takes a standard action to do so (at least, there's nothing stating that it's a free action). So there's not much reason to ever do it.

I disagree. There are several reasons you might want to do it; basically it means that you are not grappled for the current round, but your opponent is.

Therefore, for the rest of the round:
* Your opponent has a Dexterity (and hence AC) penalty
* Your opponent has a penalty on attack and CMB
* Your opponent has a serious impediment to spell-casting
* Your opponent can't Stealth away, even with Invisibility
* Your opponent can't make AoE

... and most importantly, you can grapple-lock your opponent with a single attack each round by releasing as a free action and then re-establishing the Grab.

So my pet Roc can grapple the opposing wizard with one attack, grapple the opposing cleric with a second attack, bite someone for damage, and do the same thing next round.

Technically you are wrong and right here.

Your pet Roc could do all that on the first round of combat easily and wouldn't actually need to take the -20 (the grapple check would be a free action at the end of each attack roll).
The following round however even if it did take the -20 it would still have to spend a standard action to maintain the grapple preventing it from taking any other attacks (except AoO's).
There is almost NEVER any reason for a creature with grab and more than 1 attack to EVER maintain a grapple.
It's much easier to simply attack -> grab -> Constrict -> release and repeat.


I have opened a similar thread here, a while ago: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ppba?Help-on-Grab-s-hold-option

I too have many doubts about how to handle a multiple grapple, and the "release & repeat" seems to be the only way to go.

What bothers me is that, using the "release & repeat":

  • The players can ready an action "when the kraken/roc releases me..." (and it's the DM's duty to tell the players that is does, it would be wrong - at least to me - to describe them the "release & repeat" as a "he continuously grapples you"
  • On the subsequent rounds, when the "repeat" happens, the players are not grappled anymore (having just been "released"), so the kraken/roc has no bonuses to take advantage of - it's "first grapple round" all over again, which is a bit anti-climatic to me


I don't understand why one need use the "release & repeat" method.
In my example of the constrictor snake, here's how I'm reading the rules (please correct me if I'm wrong):
Round 1: snake bites (deals bite damage), grabs (starts grapple), grapples (deals constrict damage)
Round 2: snake grapples normally (no -20 penalty, deals constrict damage), grappling snake attacks with natural attack (deals bite damage)
Rounds 3+: same as Round 2

Am I missing something? Why would the snake in the above situation not maintain this grapple and instead choose the "release & repeat" method?


Well, the Constrictor Snake is special case - it can grapple a single opponent, so you're right: maintaining the grapple is pretty much his only sensible option.

My trouble was more with the multi-grabbing creatures - say, kraken. I couldn't figure out how it was meant to happen that a creature grapples and "locks" multiple PCs simultaneously, constantly. But it seems i found a valid answer (in the thread i referenced).

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