+5 great axe will over come all damage reduction except for piercing and bludgeon right


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I am building a level 12 character an have just enough for a +5 weapon or the equivalent like +2 speed. I am thinking the smart thing to do is just go straight +5. We are running into a lot of dr creatures and the plus five would over com that right?


Lobolusk wrote:
I am building a level 12 character an have just enough for a +5 weapon or the equivalent like +2 speed. I am thinking the smart thing to do is just go straight +5. We are running into a lot of dr creatures and the plus five would over com that right?

Damage Reduction has a table showing what type of enhancement bonus is needed to overcome some common types of damage reduction.

+3 will overcome DR/cold iron and DR/silver
+4 will overcome DR/adamantine
+5 will overcome alignment-based DR.

As to whether you should or should not buy the weapon, that probably belongs in the Advice section.

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It will cover the majority of DRs that can be overcome. Though if you went with something like a Scythe, Lucerne Hammer, Halberd, or some other dual-weapon type you can further increase the DRs you can overcome. Sadly, most of those weapons are reach, exotic, or one-handed excluding the Scythe.

Liberty's Edge

It won't overcome epic...but it's unlikely you'll see that for a while.


See here

As for advice on should you buy a +5 weapon vs a weapon with an equivalent enhancement equal to +5, I personally would go with the flat +5. The bonus to hit and damage is going to work all of the time, where other bonus can become situationally negated.


It would over come most DR. There are still some far flung ones like #/epic or #/- that it wouldn't by pass but those aren't too common. Though honestly depending on the amount of DR the creature has and how much damage you do per hit you might be better off getting that extra swing a speed weapon can give. It really is a case by case thing. And there are other concerns such as how likely you're later attacks are to hit against high AC targets and other defensive abilities like regeneration that a +5 weapon may not by pass. I'd consider it a bit of a toss up.


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I think the question isn't +5 or +x something weapon. The +5 is clearly the best choice.

The question is, "what sorts of other things could I be affording if I spent less on the axe?" It's costs you over 50,000 gp. Reducing it to +4 knocks 18,000 gp off the price, which could potentially buy you a lot of AC and some save bonus.
Obviously the less magic items you have to start w/, the more bang for your buck you can generate from 18000 gp. But if you had no other magic items than the axe just as an example, you could afford +2 to your armor, ring of deflect +1, cloak of resist +2, +2 str, and +2 dex. Which would net you +4 AC, +2 saves (+3 for reflex), +1 to hit, +1.5 damage, +1 initiative. Compared to +1 to hit and damage and overcoming alignment DR for adding another +1 to the axe.


There's only one good reason at these levels NOT to go just with the high plus weapon.
Do you expect to regularly have a greater magic weapon cast on your weapon by a friendly spellcaster?---at your level I believe that'd give you +4 or so. If you do, you might go with a +1 weapon with special abilities.

Sovereign Court

How about an Adamantium +4 weapon instead? The +5 is only for bypassing adamantium DR anyway; and if your weapon is adamantium that's a big help in surviving sunder attempts and using it to cut apart scenery that's annoying you.

You'll also save a lot of money.


Ascalaphus wrote:

How about an Adamantium +4 weapon instead? The +5 is only for bypassing adamantium DR anyway; and if your weapon is adamantium that's a big help in surviving sunder attempts and using it to cut apart scenery that's annoying you.

You'll also save a lot of money.

Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage

a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his
weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the
weapon struck. p.468 of the core rule book at +5 it would take another +5 weapon. Adamantiun +4 does no damage to a +5 weapon. +5 is the way to go, at +5 it goes through alignment DR. a +4 does not. +5 and save up for speed or some type of bane or holy later. get the +5 out the way and you will out hit every one and damage all the time. Damage all the time is better then damage every now and again.


Ascalaphus wrote:

How about an Adamantium +4 weapon instead? The +5 is only for bypassing adamantium DR anyway; and if your weapon is adamantium that's a big help in surviving sunder attempts and using it to cut apart scenery that's annoying you.

You'll also save a lot of money.

+4 weapons overcome DR/Adamantine. +5 weapons overcome DR/Alignment.


Ascalaphus wrote:

How about an Adamantium +4 weapon instead? The +5 is only for bypassing adamantium DR anyway; and if your weapon is adamantium that's a big help in surviving sunder attempts and using it to cut apart scenery that's annoying you.

You'll also save a lot of money.

The +5 is for overcoming alignment based DR, quite useful, +4 is for overcoming adamantine.

+5 will not overcome :

Epic DR, probably not an issue at level 12

DR/-, which is a real possibility but usually just takes off a few points of damage.

DR/Bludgeoning and DR/Piercing, DR/piercing seems to be very rare, DR/Bludgeoning is more common.

Considering you need a 11+ to hit with a great axe +2 the speed weapon will hit :

50%, 50%, 25%, 5% = 130%

the +5 great axe will hit :

65%, 40%, 15% = 120%, dealing 3.6 damage more on average from the superior enhancement bonus.

to match the damage output you will need to deal 36 damage per hit on average with a +2 weapon, or 1d12+30, possible but not easy.

Add to that you do not always get a full attack in which case the +5 weapon is just better.

you often get a haste spell from the party that matches the extra attack from speed enhancement, and since you have a bigger enhancement bonus you get more out off that extra attack.

The DR you cut through is a very nice extra, if you do not cut through the DR then the bonus damage becomes from the enhancement becomes better in comparison, based on the above example and a DR of 15/bludgeoning you would have to deal 1d12+45 damage to match the damage output from the dude with the +5 axe's 1d12+48.

Shadow Lodge

Ascalaphus wrote:
How about an Adamantium +4 weapon instead? The +5 is only for bypassing adamantium DR anyway;

No, as shown by the above posters +5 is for alignment DR.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:


The question is, "what sorts of other things could I be affording if I spent less on the axe?" It's costs you over 50,000 gp. Reducing it to +4 knocks 18,000 gp off the price, which could potentially buy you a lot of AC and some save bonus.
Obviously the less magic items you have to start w/, the more bang for your buck you can generate from 18000 gp. But if you had no other magic items than the axe just as an example, you could afford +2 to your armor, ring of deflect +1, cloak of resist +2, +2 str, and +2 dex. Which would net you +4 AC, +2 saves (+3 for reflex), +1 to hit, +1.5 damage, +1 initiative. Compared to +1 to hit and damage and overcoming alignment DR for adding another +1 to the axe.

In addition, you can always go back and improve the enchantment on a +4 axe later when you've got more money. That way you still end up with the +5 axe and these defensive benefits StreamOfTheSky suggests, just a little later.

As far as whether that's a better strategy or not, that will depend on how much you need to overcome varied DRs (particularly alignment DRs) now.


I also would go for the +5 weapon...that baby should nail anything shy of mythic/gods.


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StreamOfTheSky wrote:


The question is, "what sorts of other things could I be affording if I spent less on the axe?" It's costs you over 50,000 gp. Reducing it to +4 knocks 18,000 gp off the price, which could potentially buy you a lot of AC and some save bonus.

If we're going to metagame the decision, then consider this:

AT level 12 he won't find many +5 axes sitting in treasure hoards. If he goes with a +4 axe and some other gear, finding upgrades will take forever.

On the other hand, if he goes for a +5 axe, then he will be ready to take advantage of the very common rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, etc., that are found in every other treasure hoard at that level.

All he has to do is survive the first dozen fights or so and he'll probably have all that other gear from simply adventuring and acquiring loot, and then he'll have the best of both worlds, a +5 axe AND the extra gear.

Silver Crusade

KainPen wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:

How about an Adamantium +4 weapon instead? The +5 is only for bypassing adamantium DR anyway; and if your weapon is adamantium that's a big help in surviving sunder attempts and using it to cut apart scenery that's annoying you.

You'll also save a lot of money.

Damaging Magic Weapons: An attacker cannot damage

a magic weapon that has an enhancement bonus unless his
weapon has at least as high an enhancement bonus as the
weapon struck. p.468 of the core rule book at +5 it would take another +5 weapon. Adamantiun +4 does no damage to a +5 weapon. +5 is the way to go, at +5 it goes through alignment DR. a +4 does not. +5 and save up for speed or some type of bane or holy later. get the +5 out the way and you will out hit every one and damage all the time. Damage all the time is better then damage every now and again.

Not true anymore.

This was a mistake in 3.5 which was revived by PF, and it has now been errata'd back.

Now, the relative enhancement bonuses are irrelevant when considering sunder.

The latest version of the rules has been corrected.

Apologies, but I lack the skill to create a link. Perhaps a poster more skilled in this field could provide a link?


Page 468—In the Weapons Section, delete the Damaging Magic Weapons paragraph. Add the following

paragraph in its place:

Hardness and Hit Points: Each +1 of a magic weapon’s enhancement bonus adds +2 to its hardness and +10 to its hit points. See also Table 7–12 on page 175.

To Malachi:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
I lack the skill to create a link.

Underneath the text box when you create a post (below the Preview/Cancel/Submit Post buttons) is a button labeled "How to format your text" with a "Show" button. Click it. If you have scripting enabled, it will pop out a list showing you how basic post formatting works.

The one for links is:

Go to [ url=http://paizo.com]Paizo Publishing[/url].

(Ignore the space I put before the first "url")

What that means if you type a left bracket, then type "url=" then you type (or paste) the URL you want to link. Then add a right bracket, and then type the text you want to appear as the link. (The blue clickable text). At the end of the text, type a left bracket, then "/url" then a right bracket.

You can test it to make sure it works and you didn't miss a bracket or something by using the Preview button.


The +5 greataxe won't overcome DR/vorpal.

But if you're around something with that kind of DR (demilich, jabberwock, etc) then you got bigger problems.

Sovereign Court

Ah, I seem to have misremembered. Makes the +5 much more relevant. If you can spare the 3000gp, you should still take Adamantine, just to make the weapon sturdier and make penetrating hardness easier.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

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I'm pretty sure that Achilles felt invulnerable running around with his DR 50/Paris, but everyone has their day.


DM_Blake wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:


The question is, "what sorts of other things could I be affording if I spent less on the axe?" It's costs you over 50,000 gp. Reducing it to +4 knocks 18,000 gp off the price, which could potentially buy you a lot of AC and some save bonus.

If we're going to metagame the decision, then consider this:

AT level 12 he won't find many +5 axes sitting in treasure hoards. If he goes with a +4 axe and some other gear, finding upgrades will take forever.

On the other hand, if he goes for a +5 axe, then he will be ready to take advantage of the very common rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, etc., that are found in every other treasure hoard at that level.

All he has to do is survive the first dozen fights or so and he'll probably have all that other gear from simply adventuring and acquiring loot, and then he'll have the best of both worlds, a +5 axe AND the extra gear.

That is true, and a great pain in the ass for all martial characters -- all lesser rods of [metamagic feat] work the same for any caster, but it makes a world of difference if the dropped weapon is a +5 greataxe, greatsword, or throwing axe. I had not considered that. I am fortunate enough to play w/ DMs that try to ensure an item specifically useful to each PC will be in the loot once in a while, and I also try to avoid feats and such that lock me into a specific weapon any more strongly than "a 2H one would be nice, since I have power attack..." In a game run by the book, it's way too easy to devote yourself to one kind of weapon and have randomly rolled treasure hauls screw you over time and time again.

OP, take the +5 greataxe.


I agree with all that you said, but I wasn't even talking about random treasure. Even if the DM is specifically placing things for you, and following the Treasure Values per Encounter chart, this character in question is only 12th level, his average encounter would have about 9,000 gp worth of stuff. Finding a weapon worth 50,000 gp in there would be amazing since that would be almost the entire alotment for a CR 19 encounter.

On the other hand, finding a ring of +2 protection or a cloak of +3 Resistance would be commonplace in a CR 12 treasure hoard. Randomly, those should occur but it's even more true if the DM is placing stuff the characters need - chances are a DM is going to recognize that the OP's character is a bit low on AC or Saves and include stuff like this because it's needed and it's well within the reasonable Treasure Values per Encounter range. What isn't well within, or even close, in fact very far away from the Treasure Values per Encounter at 12th level is any kind of +5 weapon.

Further, even if a generous DM did drop a +5 weapon in there for you, your DM might go with a +4 flaming greataxe or some other equivalent, still an upgrade over your +4 greataxe, but not necessarily the upgrade you want.

So if we're metagamistly outmaneuvering the DM, regardless of whether he randomizes treasure or places what you need (when I DM, which is most of the time, I do both, some random stuff for verisimilitude and some specific stuff for PCs just because I like them), you're still going to want to pick the thing right now that won't be in any treasure hoard for many, many levels.


But if you do spend all your money on one weapon, just one Disarm and it's gone. Or a grapple and it's useless. Or a flying target. And so on. I'd rely on a caster with Greater Magic Weapon and buy a +1 Holy weapon. The main Alignment DR you'll see is on evil outsiders, so Holy will be more useful in such cases than the extra +1. Get the caster a Pearl of Power if necessary. Then spend the change on a bow, arrows, a belt, etc etc.

Of course a 12th level character's RAW WBL is 108k, so it's a reasonable assumption that he has much of this anyway, but you can get +1 to hit and +1 damage in much cheaper ways than +18k on a weapon.


Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Achilles felt invulnerable running around with his DR 50/Paris, but everyone has their day.

I admit it, I LOLed.


Thanks for the advice my next issue is do I go straight fighter or two handed fighter
The straight fighter gets armor training which is key for plate mail. This is my first two handed build soni have never done this before


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How do you "buy" anything over 16,000gp?

All +5 weapons are beyond what even metropolises can easily offer up.


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Ravingdork wrote:

How do you "buy" anything over 16,000gp?

All +5 weapons are beyond what even metropolises can easily offer up.

Yet another reason noncasters suck to high heavens. Not only do noncasters not need gear as much, they have a means to create it on their own. Noncasters have to rely on literally breaking the rules to find the high level stuff they want.

In any case, as I'm sure you know, equipping a high level character is not "buying his stuff" so much as saying what he's accumulated, inherited, found, and bought.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

How do you "buy" anything over 16,000gp?

All +5 weapons are beyond what even metropolises can easily offer up.

Yet another reason noncasters suck to high heavens. Not only do noncasters not need gear as much, they have a means to buy it on their own. Noncasters have to rely on literally breaking the rules to find the high level stuff they want.

In any case, as I'm sure you know, equipping a high level character is not "buying his stuff" so much as saying what he's accumulated, inherited, found, and bought.

All my dreams burning in flamed

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Simon Legrande wrote:
Zahir ibn Mahmoud ibn Jothan wrote:
I'm pretty sure that Achilles felt invulnerable running around with his DR 50/Paris, but everyone has their day.
I admit it, I LOLed.

Glad I could provide.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

How do you "buy" anything over 16,000gp?

All +5 weapons are beyond what even metropolises can easily offer up.

In any case, as I'm sure you know, equipping a high level character is not "buying his stuff" so much as saying what he's accumulated, inherited, found, and bought.

Bought, of course, includes commissioned. Somewhere out there was a spellcaster willing and able to make the weapon you want, and before the campaign starts you don't have to worry about how long it takes to make it.

To make matters better, a simple +5 doesn't require any given spell, meaning even an Adept could have done it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
To make matters better, a simple +5 doesn't require any given spell, meaning even an Adept could have done it.

Provided he is at least a 5th-level caster, has Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and possesses a high enough Spellcraft modifier to beat the craft DC.

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:
and possesses a high enough Spellcraft modifier to beat the craft DC.

That's not hard for a 5th level adept..

DC is 25 to make a +5 weapon (CL 15) if you don't meet the special "CL 15" prerequisite. A 5th level adept can get +15 to Spellcraft with:

5 ranks
3 class skill
3 Skill Focus
2 Theoretical Magician
2 Int 14+

= 15


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How many adepts do you think are out there that are that highly focused?

NPCs don't get traits. Therefore, they have to spend a feat on Additional Traits. Skill Focus and Craft Magic Arms and Armor are two more feats that they will need.

Your 5th-level adept has just used ALL of his feats and half his base skill ranks in order to be able to craft said +5 weapon (or all his base skill ranks if you assume he crafted the actual sword too)--and meeting said DC only really works if he has that 14 intelligence to back it all up.

Yes it's possible, but also highly specialized and unlikely.


Well good for me then that it is a tribal artifact handed down to only the most worthy warrior of the tribe. This is the axe of jerrod the father of my northern tribe.

(Insert shameless ice wind dale reference)


I'd just say you found it in a family-sized box of cracker jacks. Just because such an explanation would likely peeve off the RD's of the world.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You want the +5 weapon, just to have a +5 weapon.

If at all possible, you want it made of adamantine so you can cleave into stone like butter.

A shame it isn't a greatsword, but take the +5 and be very happy.

As for choices: Go two handed warrior. Mithral armor takes care of most fighter armor training, and celestial plate takes care of the rest of it. Mithral Celestial Armor will take care of anything under a 26 Dex.

Remember, Fighter Armor Training does NOT give you extra AC. It lets you use extra Dex. Both Mithral and Celestial Armor let you do that. Thus, 1/4 of Fighter class abilities are replaced by 3-5k in cash.

If you don't have a Dex of 22 or higher, Celestial Plate will take care of all your problems. If you want full movement, Mithral Breastplate will do the same for 1 less AC.

And you will do a LOT more damage with the 2h archetype. No shield will hurt, but just max your AC in other areas...or wear a mithral buckler for when you really want the AC and go with a shield.

Seriously, Armor Training is NOT a reason to take an archetype, given how easily it is subbed.

==Aelryinth


Ravingdork wrote:

How many adepts do you think are out there that are that highly focused?

NPCs don't get traits. Therefore, they have to spend a feat on Additional Traits. Skill Focus and Craft Magic Arms and Armor are two more feats that they will need.

Your 5th-level adept has just used ALL of his feats and half his base skill ranks in order to be able to craft said +5 weapon (or all his base skill ranks if you assume he crafted the actual sword too)--and meeting said DC only really works if he has that 14 intelligence to back it all up.

Yes it's possible, but also highly specialized and unlikely.

If he's made crafting magic weapons his job, he's almost sure to take Skill Focus Spellcraft, and a 14 int isn't unreasonable, so ignoring the trait our Adept would only need to be 7th level to take 10 and craft a +5 weapon.

Actually, I take that back (forgot to account for the Masterworked Tool involved in the enhancement process.) 5th level is all that's required with the Skill Focus feat. This Adept still has 3 skill points per level to distribute (because he has a 14 int) and has only used up 1/2 of his feats. This is also without assuming the Adept was a Human.

Shadow Lodge

Ravingdork wrote:

How many adepts do you think are out there that are that highly focused?

NPCs don't get traits. Therefore, they have to spend a feat on Additional Traits. Skill Focus and Craft Magic Arms and Armor are two more feats that they will need.

Your 5th-level adept has just used ALL of his feats and half his base skill ranks in order to be able to craft said +5 weapon (or all his base skill ranks if you assume he crafted the actual sword too)--and meeting said DC only really works if he has that 14 intelligence to back it all up.

Yes it's possible, but also highly specialized and unlikely.

What else is an NPC class going to use their feats for? Most don't adventure, and while some are going to pick up a few combat-applicable feats for defense of themselves or their towns, most are looking for marketable skills. This would be the NPC's career.

If he makes even one 2,000 gold item (a +1 sword) a year, he gets a 1,000 gp profit, almost enough to afford the "wealthy" lifestyle on that one piece and two days of labour alone. And why not spend the extra two feats on getting +5 to spellcraft when it expands the range of items he can make and thus his chances of attracting customers to commission these items. If he's human or half-elf he even has one more feat which he can spend on Craft Wondrous Item, allowing him to make a huge variety of items with CL of up to 20, depending on whether he meets prerequisites. That +5 sword gives him enough profit to afford an extravagant lifestyle for two years.

Plus, you don't have to use Spellcraft to make things, it's just the more versatile route. A gnome or ifrit can get a +2 racial bonus to weaponsmithing, for 5 ranks + 3 class skill + 3 skill focus +2 racial +2 MW tools = 15 without an Int bonus and only spending two feats.

Finally, why don't NPCs get traits? I can understand not giving them to NPC classes, but it's pretty weird not to allow heroic NPCs to get them. I usually don't bother, but if I think a particular trait makes sense for a major NPC I add it.


Quote:
Finally, why don't NPCs get traits? I can understand not giving them to NPC classes, but it's pretty weird not to allow heroic NPCs to get them. I usually don't bother, but if I think a particular trait...

Because the rules specifically say they don't get traits.

Quote:
Character traits are only for player characters. If you want an NPC to have traits, that NPC must “buy” them with the Additional Traits feat. Player characters are special; they're the stars of the game, after all, and it makes sense that they have an advantage over the NPCs of the world in this way.

Shadow Lodge

There is one creature I have fought that has DR that this does not overcome DR/ wooden and piercing
It's a vamp variant
And if you use 3rd party there is the DR possessed by warlocks like cold or fire
I would never go full +5
I'd go +2 or +3 adamanite shocking flaming


Get a +5 Axe Musket (Musket Axe?) then everything is covered!


Aelryinth wrote:

You want the +5 weapon, just to have a +5 weapon.

If at all possible, you want it made of adamantine so you can cleave into stone like butter.

A shame it isn't a greatsword, but take the +5 and be very happy.

As for choices: Go two handed warrior. Mithral armor takes care of most fighter armor training, and celestial plate takes care of the rest of it. Mithral Celestial Armor will take care of anything under a 26 Dex.

Remember, Fighter Armor Training does NOT give you extra AC. It lets you use extra Dex. Both Mithral and Celestial Armor let you do that. Thus, 1/4 of Fighter class abilities are replaced by 3-5k in cash.

If you don't have a Dex of 22 or higher, Celestial Plate will take care of all your problems. If you want full movement, Mithral Breastplate will do the same for 1 less AC.

And you will do a LOT more damage with the 2h archetype. No shield will hurt, but just max your AC in other areas...or wear a mithral buckler for when you really want the AC and go with a shield.

Seriously, Armor Training is NOT a reason to take an archetype, given how easily it is subbed.

==Aelryinth

I don't like the fact I lose speed in armor with the Archetype plus it leaves me extra gold to buy magic items if I Don't need to use mithril it frees up 9k

honestly I am still on the fence

Scarab Sages

Lobolusk wrote:
I am building a level 12 character an have just enough for a +5 weapon or the equivalent like +2 speed. I am thinking the smart thing to do is just go straight +5. We are running into a lot of dr creatures and the plus five would over com that right?

Depending on the amount of DR and how hard you are hitting, you may be better off with the +2 speed.

You would have to calculate DPR with each weapon version, including DR, to determine which option is better.


I'd still go with the +4 adamantium sword as you can always upgrade it to +5 later. Not sure how to do change an item's material.

Silver Crusade RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Lemartes wrote:
Not sure how to do change an item's material.

Be a pretty appropriate ability for an alchemist if you ask me!


NVM, I see my question has finally been added to the FAQ!


Doesn't anyone use the 25% rule for loot? Seriously, a +5 magic weapon at level 12 is kinda stupid. I, as a DM, would strongly advice against it, and in my current groups I even enforce this law directly.


Rickmeister wrote:
Doesn't anyone use the 25% rule for loot? Seriously, a +5 magic weapon at level 12 is kinda stupid. I, as a DM, would strongly advice against it, and in my current groups I even enforce this law directly.

I know quite a few using the 50% rule or in one case the 33,3% rule but never 25%.


Rickmeister wrote:
Doesn't anyone use the 25% rule for loot? Seriously, a +5 magic weapon at level 12 is kinda stupid. I, as a DM, would strongly advice against it, and in my current groups I even enforce this law directly.

Can you please clarify the rule? I'm guessing that it's 25% of character level is the max enhancement bonus to an item. Is that it? If so, your assertion is the max enhancement bonus for a level 12 would be a +2 weapon? Does this count enhancement equivalent bonuses (vorpal, flaming, etc.)?

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