Failing to increase the light level in an area of darkness


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

92 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite.

The darkness spell says that nonmagical light sources (and magical light sources that aren't higher level than darkness) "do not increase the light level in [the] area".

Does "in an area of darkness" qualify where the light level is not increased, or does it qualify where a light source has to be in order to be affected?

That is, if there's a torch adjacent to an area of darkness, does its light fail to increase the light level in the area? Or does the torch itself have to be in the area for it to be affected by the "does not increase the light level" clause?

Please click the FAQ flag on the upper-right portion of this post. I've recently learned that things have a better chance of getting the FAQ treatment if it's a single, concise question rather than a whole topic, so I'm going to make a thread per question and maybe we can get some answers. Click that FAQ button! :D

See also:
What counts as ambient natural light?

Silver Crusade

Clicked again. : )

I don't know if the design team's understanding of how the spell works is the same as mine, but I'd rather get a clear idea of how it's meant to work that we can all understand the same way.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

We can do better than 18 FAQ clicks, folks! :D


Done.

Silver Crusade

When I finally run for political office, I'm hiring Jiggy as my campaign manager/community organizer.


Clicked FAQ in both threads. The rules for the darkness spells and ambient light have been argued about ad nauseam.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yeah, I've actually got a far more elegant (IMO) system I'll be using next time I run a home game. But in the meantime, I'd settle for clarity on how what we already have works.


Care to share that system? Perhaps you have it in another thread?

Silver Crusade

Jiggy wrote:
Yeah, I've actually got a far more elegant (IMO) system I'll be using next time I run a home game. But in the meantime, I'd settle for clarity on how what we already have works.

Don't we all?

Trouble is, all our own solutions differ and are mutually exclusive!

I applaud your quest for clarity.

(I wonder if there's any XP in it for you...?)

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

My homebrew system:

First, chuck the entire "X type of light source doesn't increase blah blah blah" from the darkness spells. Just gone.

Second, add a 1st-level lesser darkness spell.

Lesser darkness reduces the light level within the area by 1 step.
Darkness (the 2nd-level spell) drops it by 2 steps.
Deeper darkness drops it by 3 steps, and has the capability to go beyond dark to supernaturally dark.

Oh, look at that! The spell levels match the effects!

Delete daylight's whole "negated in the overlapping areas" thing.

Now when any of the darkness spells is cast, you don't first have to default to anything. You just take the light level you were just at, and lower it by the prescribed number of steps. Done.

For how some examples would work out:
In any indoor situation that doesn't involve daylight (since 99% of light sources cap at normal light), darkness makes it dark and deeper darkness makes it supernaturally dark. Almost like what you'd expect based on the names...

Outside in broad daylight (where one would expect the servants of the dark to be weaker) or within the bright light of daylight, even deeper darkness won't quite block darkvision, and darkness only accomplishes dim light. Lesser darkness accomplishes next to nothing (dropping bright to normal).

And so forth. Super simple, super intuitive.


Thanks, I might borrow that until we get an answered FAQ (hint, hint, answers are good!) :P

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:
** details of homebrew light system omitted **

That's how I'd like it to work, too (with the hopefully-obvious extensions to how light sources contribute, and whether similarly-named but different spells stack).

The existing PF system is overly complicated, and IMO is not in any way superior to the much simpler system you (we) espouse.

Silver Crusade

Jiggy wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

I like it.

Mine involves my dissatisfaction with darkness descriptor spells being unaccountably more powerful than light descriptor spells. I'm playing in a campaign where my PC has a continual flame heightened to ninth level cast on his holy symbol! But when in dark radiance then it does not trump the second or third level spell like you would expect! Instead, neither spell has an effect, leaving the infamous 'ambient light' at 'dark' because it's underground and of course he rules that non-magical light sources simply don't work! It really bothers me that in an area affected by a 2nd darkness spell and a 9th level light spell that the area stays dark!

I think PF missed a trick! In the same way that they had a section in the magic chapter regarding the whole issue of how polymorph-type spells work and have individual spells refer back to this section, there should have been (and still could be, given the right errata!) a section devoted to how light and darkness descriptor spells interact, with the basic logic being that, where the areas of dark radiance intersect with areas of light radiance, the higher level spell works as normal and the lower level spell has no effect in the intersecting area. If the spell levels are equal then neither spell has an effect in the intersecting area.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Mine involves my dissatisfaction with darkness descriptor spells being unaccountably more powerful than light descriptor spells. I'm playing in a campaign where my PC has a continual flame heightened to ninth level cast on his holy symbol! But when in dark radiance then it does not trump the second or third level spell like you would expect! Instead, neither spell has an effect, leaving the infamous 'ambient light' at 'dark' because it's underground and of course he rules that non-magical light sources simply don't work! It really bothers me that in an area affected by a 2nd darkness spell and a 9th level light spell that the area stays dark!

This isn't the Pathfinder system having a problem, this is your GM thinking that a special effect of the daylight spell is a rule for light in general. Your GM has ripped out "Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness" from the darkness spell and is applying "Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect" to a spell that is not daylight.

Scarab Sages

I am missing the confusion here. It seems pretty clear to me that a light source outside the the darkness effect would illuminate it's entire radius except where it overlaps with and is overpowered by the darkness effect.

What am I missing?

Tam

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Tambryn wrote:

I am missing the confusion here. It seems pretty clear to me that a light source outside the the darkness effect would illuminate it's entire radius except where it overlaps with and is overpowered by the darkness effect.

What am I missing?

Tam

Some folks take this, combined with a belief that the sun is a nonmagical light source, to add up to meaning that there will never be any light within the area of a darkness spell (unless you have a high-level light spell). But they don't want it to work that way (most people believe that if the only light source affecting the area is the sun, it should be subjected to the "lower the level by one step" rule and not the "fails to increase the light level" rule) so they decide that the rule in question must only apply to light sources inside the radius.

Silver Crusade

Jiggy wrote:
Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
Mine involves my dissatisfaction with darkness descriptor spells being unaccountably more powerful than light descriptor spells. I'm playing in a campaign where my PC has a continual flame heightened to ninth level cast on his holy symbol! But when in dark radiance then it does not trump the second or third level spell like you would expect! Instead, neither spell has an effect, leaving the infamous 'ambient light' at 'dark' because it's underground and of course he rules that non-magical light sources simply don't work! It really bothers me that in an area affected by a 2nd darkness spell and a 9th level light spell that the area stays dark!
This isn't the Pathfinder system having a problem, this is your GM thinking that a special effect of the daylight spell is a rule for light in general. Your GM has ripped out "Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness" from the darkness spell and is applying "Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect" to a spell that is not daylight.

Although he's doing it wrong, it seems very difficult to do it right!

What should happen in my above example?

Would that be RAW, or an educated guess?

Does my idea for relative spell levels make sense? Does it already exist without my realising it?

If it exists, I'd like to rub my DM's face in it....er, I mean....gently bring it to his attention.


The RAW in that case is that neither spell trumps the other. Both spells work as normal. Darkness drops the light level by one and your heightened continual light raises it by one, leaving you back where you started.

There is no parallel in the light spells to the darkness spell rule of "only higher level sources of light work". Therefore the darkness spell does its usual thing. The continual flame is heightened so it still works, but the heighten doesn't actually make it brighter so it still only raises the light by one.

In fact, Deeper darkness still lowers the net light level by one, possibly to supernatural darkness.

It's not entirely clear, but I would rule that while Daylight and Darkness/Deeper Darkness cancel each other out in the area of effect, since the Darkness is canceled other light sources would work. But that's only with Daylight.

Shadow Lodge

Heightened continual flame raises the light level by two, darkness reduces it by one. Net result: dim light where the flame increases the level by two in area that would normally be dark.

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

The only issue with the system is that now only daylight can counteract darkness, while the current system allows heightened spells to do so.

Silver Crusade

Serum wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
** spoiler omitted **
The only issue with the system is that now only daylight can counteract darkness, while the current system allows heightened spells to do so.

Would you like to read this again, then edit it to say what you actually mean in such a way that the rest of us know what you mean? : )

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy's homebrew system doesn't allow heightened light spells to counteract darkness . That might be intentional or unintended, but it was probably a worthy sacrifice for the sake of simplicity.


Serum wrote:
Heightened continual flame raises the light level by two, darkness reduces it by one. Net result: dim light where the flame increases the level by two in area that would normally be dark.

Not quite. Though I was wrong too.

Continual flame does not "raise the light level by two". It works like a torch. It sets the light level to Normal within 20' and raises it by one for another 20'. Heightening it doesn't change the light effects, just lets it not be negated by the Darkness.

So in any light conditions, except "bright", the combination of heightened continual flame and Darkness is "dim light" within 20'. In the next 20' the light stays the same. With Deeper Darkness, the area within 20' is "darkness" and it drops one level for the next 20'.


Serum wrote:
Jiggy's homebrew system doesn't allow heightened light spells to counteract darkness . That might be intentional or unintended, but it was probably a worthy sacrifice for the sake of simplicity.

Heightened light spells don't counteract darkness by RAW. His system doesn't change that. It does allow them to affect the current light levels, even with a higher level darkness spell active.

I assume they can also "counter or dispel" each other, but that's different than the way light and darkness spells interact when their areas overlap.


Clicked and a bump

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:
Serum wrote:
Jiggy's homebrew system doesn't allow heightened light spells to counteract darkness . That might be intentional or unintended, but it was probably a worthy sacrifice for the sake of simplicity.
Quote:
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Heightened light spells don't counteract darkness by RAW. His system doesn't change that. It does allow them to affect the current light levels, even with a higher level darkness spell active.

What. A light spell that's been heightened to take up a level four slot, is a level four spell. That satisfies darkness' condition (unless darkness has been heightened to level four + as well). It's the entire reason why spells heightened to the right level bypass globe of invulnerability.

Quote:

Not quite. Though I was wrong too.

Continual flame does not "raise the light level by two". It works like a torch. It sets the light level to Normal within 20' and raises it by one for another 20'. Heightening it doesn't change the light effects, just lets it not be negated by the Darkness.

So in any light conditions, except "bright", the combination of heightened continual flame and Darkness is "dim light" within 20'. In the next 20' the light stays the same. With Deeper Darkness, the area within 20' is "darkness" and it drops one level for the next 20'.

The issue is that, in Jiggy's homebrew, darkness lowers the light level by 2. That means that any effect that produces normal light drops down to darkness, whereas in the standard game, high level spell effects producing normal light are only dropped down to dim light. It also means that bright sunlight drops down to dim light instead of normal light.

It's probably worth it for the simplification, though.


Serum wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Serum wrote:
Jiggy's homebrew system doesn't allow heightened light spells to counteract darkness . That might be intentional or unintended, but it was probably a worthy sacrifice for the sake of simplicity.
Quote:
Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.
Heightened light spells don't counteract darkness by RAW. His system doesn't change that. It does allow them to affect the current light levels, even with a higher level darkness spell active.
What. A light spell that's been heightened to take up a level four slot, is a level four spell. That satisfies darkness' condition (unless darkness has been heightened to level four + as well). It's the entire reason why spells heightened to the right level bypass globe of invulnerability.
Quote:

Not quite. Though I was wrong too.

Continual flame does not "raise the light level by two". It works like a torch. It sets the light level to Normal within 20' and raises it by one for another 20'. Heightening it doesn't change the light effects, just lets it not be negated by the Darkness.

So in any light conditions, except "bright", the combination of heightened continual flame and Darkness is "dim light" within 20'. In the next 20' the light stays the same. With Deeper Darkness, the area within 20' is "darkness" and it drops one level for the next 20'.

The issue is that, in Jiggy's homebrew, darkness lowers the light level by 2. That means that any effect that produces normal light drops down to darkness, whereas in the standard game, high level spell effects producing normal light are only dropped down to dim light. It also means that bright sunlight drops down to dim light instead of normal light.

It's probably worth it for the simplification, though.

What I'd probably do with that, if I were to adopt his modified rules, is make parallel changes to the Light spells. Light is one level, Continual flame 2, Daylight 3. Only daylight can produce bright light, just as only Deeper Darkness can get supernatural. But the cap in both directions is applied only after all sources are considered. So Dim light plus Darkness + Light = Dim -2 +1 = Darkness, not (Dim -2) capped to Darkness + 1 = Dim.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

It's correct that my homebrew system kills the value of heightening a light spell. However, given that in a game run with my system things have (in-universe) always worked that way, it's no big deal. Instead of caring about spell levels, what matters is brightness (which under Pathfinder's system is all but meaningless). It's just a different focus is all.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

As a person only recently returned to Pathfinder...I am so glad I'm not the only one confused by Darkness effects...really shouldn't have started with Second Darkness as my first PF campaign.


YogoZuno wrote:
As a person only recently returned to Pathfinder...I am so glad I'm not the only one confused by Darkness effects...really shouldn't have started with Second Darkness as my first PF campaign.

It was really just an excuse to bring back all the characters from First Darkness.


YogoZuno wrote:
As a person only recently returned to Pathfinder...I am so glad I'm not the only one confused by Darkness effects...really shouldn't have started with Second Darkness as my first PF campaign.

D'oh


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Bump for FAQ hits.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qnn

Darkness: Can a nonmagical light source increase the light level within the area of darkness if the light source is outside the spell's area?

No. Nonmagical light sources do not increase the light level within the spell's area, regardless of whether the light source is in the area or outside the area.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

*strikes a pose*

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