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Wyroot does no damage?


Rules Questions


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

The description of this material says:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The root of the wyrwood tree has a peculiar quality. When a weapon constructed of wyroot confirms a critical hit, it absorbs some of the life force of the creature hit. The creature hit is unharmed and the wyroot weapon gains 1 life point. As a swift action, a wielder with a ki pool or an arcane pool can absorb 1 life point from the wyrwood weapon and convert it into either 1 ki point or 1 arcane pool point. Most wyroot weapons can only hold 1 life point at a time, but higher-quality wyroot does exist. The most powerful wyroot weapons can hold up to 3 life points at a time. Any unspent life points dissipate at dusk.

Wyroot can be used to construct any melee weapon made entirely of wood or a melee weapon with a wooden haft. Constructing a wyroot weapon that can hold 1 life point increases the weapon's cost by 1,000 gp, constructing one that can hold up to 2 life points increases the weapon's cost by 2,000 gp, and constructing one that can hold up to 3 life points increases the weapon's cost by 4,000 gp.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I was wondering if doing no damage is the condition to be able absorb life force? Will the weapon start doing normal damage once it had reach the maximum absorb points possible?

If this does normal damage I could see a potential exploit of unlimited source of arcane pools with a weapon with critical 15-20 and using the arcana that makes your weapon do touch attacks.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

No, the weapon does no damage on a crit and gains 1 life point. If it has its maximum capacity the gain of the 'potential' life point would be wasted. Doing no damage is a result of the crit.


The "unharmed" bit may just refer to the "absorbs some of the life force" effect. It would take damage as normal.

I don't use it in my games (or most of the ARG, for that matter).

If you really wanted to break it, just get a bag of unconscious rats and start Coup-de-Grasing between combats.


Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

And your exploit likely does not work. Name an 18-20/x2 weapon made of wood. Go!


mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

And your exploit likely does not work. Name an 18-20/x2 weapon made of wood. Go!

The description says too a melee weapon with a wooden haft. So that means that you dont need to make the weapon entirely of wood right?


Karse wrote:
The description says too a melee weapon with a wooden haft. So that means that you dont need to make the weapon entirely of wood right?

No, but there are also no one-handed 18-20/x2 hafted weapons that I'm aware of (the Fauchard would qualify, but would not help a Magus).

Sczarni

@Quantum Steve: Where are you getting a bag of unconscious rats?

@mplindustries: The Kukri.


Whip can and did have wooden handles.

Wyroot Whip on someone with armor is the classic method of abusing Wyroot.


mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

And your exploit likely does not work. Name an 18-20/x2 weapon made of wood. Go!

Ironwood Scimitar.

...

Also, small Fauchard.

Silent Satrun wrote:
@Quantum Steve: Where are you getting a bag of unconscious rats?

Put a trap in the tavern cellar baited with cheese laced with a sedative. Every level 1 adventurer knows that there is no shortage of rats in tavern cellars.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

And your exploit likely does not work. Name an 18-20/x2 weapon made of wood. Go!

Intent and RAW aren't always the same sadly, in PFS where a more 'strict' reading of the rules are enforced you have what the words say you have :( (which is what my answer was based on).

Andoran

mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

And your exploit likely does not work. Name an 18-20/x2 weapon made of wood. Go!

Sharpened Combat Scabbard.


Silent Saturn wrote:
@mplindustries: The Kukri.

The kurkri is not hafted, it's crafted like any sword/dagger type weapon--namely, as a single piece of metal (the crossguard might be an extra piece, but the blade/hilt should be one). Otherwise, the blade would detach from the hilt at the first impact.

Quantum Steve wrote:
Ironwood Scimitar.

Can you Ironwood Wyroot?

"Ironwood is a magical substance created by druids from normal wood." I don't think Wyroot is "normal wood."

Silent Saturn wrote:
Also, small Fauchard.

A small Fauchard is a two-handed weapon that a medium creature can use in one-hand. It is not actually a one-handed weapon. Magi specifically require a light or one-handed weapon, so still doesn't work.

EldonG wrote:
Sharpened Combat Scabbard.

The Sharpened Combat Scabbard looks like a 20/x2 weapon to me.

Andoran

mplindustries wrote:
Silent Saturn wrote:
@mplindustries: The Kukri.

The kurkri is not hafted, it's crafted like any sword/dagger type weapon--namely, as a single piece of metal (the crossguard might be an extra piece, but the blade/hilt should be one). Otherwise, the blade would detach from the hilt at the first impact.

Quantum Steve wrote:
Ironwood Scimitar.

Can you Ironwood Wyroot?

"Ironwood is a magical substance created by druids from normal wood." I don't think Wyroot is "normal wood."

Silent Saturn wrote:
Also, small Fauchard.

A small Fauchard is a two-handed weapon that a medium creature can use in one-hand. It is not actually a one-handed weapon. Magi specifically require a light or one-handed weapon, so still doesn't work.

EldonG wrote:
Sharpened Combat Scabbard.
The Sharpened Combat Scabbard looks like a 20/x2 weapon to me.

In my Adventurer's Armory, it gives 18-20. I never saw it erattaed. Was it?


http://www.thefreedictionary.com/haft wrote:

Haft

A handle or hilt, especially the handle of a tool or weapon.
tr.v. haft·ed, haft·ing, hafts
To fit into or equip with a hilt or handle.

Don't know if Pathfinder agrees, but there is the definition, anyway :)

-Nearyn

Andoran

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Quantum Steve wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

And your exploit likely does not work. Name an 18-20/x2 weapon made of wood. Go!

Ironwood Scimitar.

...

Also, small Fauchard.

Silent Satrun wrote:
@Quantum Steve: Where are you getting a bag of unconscious rats?
Put a trap in the tavern cellar baited with cheese laced with a sedative. Every level 1 adventurer knows that there is no shortage of rats in tavern cellars.

Only if you are a bard.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

And your exploit likely does not work. Name an 18-20/x2 weapon made of wood. Go!

Ironwood Scimitar.

...

Also, small Fauchard.

Silent Satrun wrote:
@Quantum Steve: Where are you getting a bag of unconscious rats?
Put a trap in the tavern cellar baited with cheese laced with a sedative. Every level 1 adventurer knows that there is no shortage of rats in tavern cellars.
Only if you are a bard.

+1 gamercred


mplindustries wrote:


Quantum Steve wrote:
Ironwood Scimitar.

Can you Ironwood Wyroot?

"Ironwood is a magical substance created by druids from normal wood." I don't think Wyroot is "normal wood."

Is wyroot magical wood?

Quote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Also, small Fauchard.
A small Fauchard is a two-handed weapon that a medium creature can use in one-hand. It is not actually a one-handed weapon. Magi specifically require a light or one-handed weapon, so still doesn't work.

Nope.

PRD wrote:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

The weapon actually changes from two-handed to one-handed.

Unless you read it that you could TWF small fauchards for 2x STR and 3x PA on each hand, which is the silliest thing I've ever heard.


Yeah I guess the Scimitar haft can be made of Wyroot completely and the blade made of steel or any other metal.


In 3.5/PF hafted seems to mean pole-arms made largely of wood aside from the striking end. Though as far as I know there is nowhere it is spell out word for word. Really should be.


Quantum Steve wrote:
The weapon actually changes from two-handed to one-handed.

No, the weapon does not change, the way you wield it changes.

Quantum Steve wrote:
Unless you read it that you could TWF small fauchards for 2x STR and 3x PA on each hand, which is the silliest thing I've ever heard.

Of course you can't do that, and it doesn't follow at all from what I said. Power Attack cares how you wield the weapon. The Magus specifically requires the weapon itself to be of a certain type.


Quantum Steve wrote:


Is wyroot magical wood?

Based on rules, hard to say, it certainly exhibits unusual properties. But by virtue of those properties I'd hardly qualify it as normal wood. Normal wood is wood that is normal - that is when you don't really care what it is made of - that is the game doesn't define what it is made of.

A longbow might be made of yew, but the game doesn't tell us. A cudgel might be made of oak, but the game doesn't tell us. Those are 'normal' woods.

Saying wyroot is normal wood is akin to saying mithral or adamantine is normal metal. They are metals, but they are not generic, run of the mill, metals a smith would use to craft tools or weapons or horseshoes with for general sale to the public.

Note also that wyroot is listed as a special material, not a normal material, for making weapons with.


Stome wrote:
In 3.5/PF hafted seems to mean pole-arms made largely of wood aside from the striking end. Though as far as I know there is nowhere it is spell out word for word. Really should be.

This. Most places that mention use of a special type of wood list examples of spears as candidates.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I believe in the special materials section under bone, it states 'hafted' refers to weapons like spears. There may be other RAW references as well, so it is stated someplace, just not where you'd expect it to be.


I think I found what you were talking about Skylancer4:

Bone wrote:
Light and one-handed melee weapons, as well as two-handed weapons that deal bludgeoning damage only, can be crafted from bone. Hafted two-handed weapons such as spears can be crafted with bone tips, as can arrowheads.

While I don't this bit of text to be conclusive, I can see a ruling against hafted weapons meaning "any weapon with a hilt", based on this.

EDIT: I apologize if I derped here, I must've completely missed the part of your post where you mentioned bone. SHUT UP! I'M TIRED! XD


mplindustries wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
The weapon actually changes from two-handed to one-handed.
No, the weapon does not change, the way you wield it changes.

It's handedness is how you wield it, and vice-versa. If it changes it's handedness for the way you wield it, then it changes it's handedness.

Quote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
Unless you read it that you could TWF small fauchards for 2x STR and 3x PA on each hand, which is the silliest thing I've ever heard.
Of course you can't do that, and it doesn't follow at all from what I said. Power Attack cares how you wield the weapon. The Magus specifically requires the weapon itself to be of a certain type.

Again, nope.

PRD wrote:

Power Attack (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

PRD wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

PA give 3:1 returns for all two handed weapons, and all two-handed weapons get 1.5 STR to damage.

If inappropriately sized weapons don't change handedness, then two-handed weapons get the same x3 and x1.5 regardless of who wields them or how many hands they use.


Quantum Steve wrote:
If inappropriately sized weapons don't change handedness, then two-handed weapons get the same x3 and x1.5 regardless of who wields them or how many hands they use.

Ok, guess you win.

If you get a GM to let you wield a small Fauchard, then you can use this trick--with a -2 to hit, and everyone at the table laughing/groaning at you.

As for the other sub-topic in this thread, I'm kind of surprised people don't know what a hafted weapon is.

Hafted weapons are those with long wooden handles. Axes, morningstars, picks, polearms, etc.

"Hafting is a process by which an artifact, often bone, metal, or stone, is attached to a haft (handle[1] or strap)."

So, if the thing is made of one solid piece of metal (like a sword or knife), then it's not hafted.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
If inappropriately sized weapons don't change handedness, then two-handed weapons get the same x3 and x1.5 regardless of who wields them or how many hands they use.

Ok, guess you win.

If you get a GM to let you wield a small Fauchard, then you can use this trick--with a -2 to hit, and everyone at the table laughing/groaning at you.

As for the other sub-topic in this thread, I'm kind of surprised people don't know what a hafted weapon is.

Hafted weapons are those with long wooden handles. Axes, morningstars, picks, polearms, etc.

"Hafting is a process by which an artifact, often bone, metal, or stone, is attached to a haft (handle[1] or strap)."

So, if the thing is made of one solid piece of metal (like a sword or knife), then it's not hafted.

People know what they are, the rules however don't 'define' them in game terms or mechanics except in some out of the way instance(s). We are in the Rules Forum, not the General Discussion Forum, people are actually looking for the rules regarding a particular subject not someone's general life knowledge or take on 'common sense.'


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
If inappropriately sized weapons don't change handedness, then two-handed weapons get the same x3 and x1.5 regardless of who wields them or how many hands they use.

Ok, guess you win.

If you get a GM to let you wield a small Fauchard, then you can use this trick--with a -2 to hit, and everyone at the table laughing/groaning at you.

As for the other sub-topic in this thread, I'm kind of surprised people don't know what a hafted weapon is.

Hafted weapons are those with long wooden handles. Axes, morningstars, picks, polearms, etc.

"Hafting is a process by which an artifact, often bone, metal, or stone, is attached to a haft (handle[1] or strap)."

So, if the thing is made of one solid piece of metal (like a sword or knife), then it's not hafted.

People know what they are, the rules however don't 'define' them in game terms or mechanics except in some out of the way instance(s). We are in the Rules Forum, not the General Discussion Forum, people are actually looking for the rules regarding a particular subject not someone's general life knowledge or take on 'common sense' or dictionary/wiki entry which may not mesh up with what the game rules do (like sometimes occurs).

Qadira RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

Skylancer4 wrote:
Intent and RAW aren't always the same sadly, in PFS where a more 'strict' reading of the rules are enforced you have what the words say you have :( (which is what my answer was based on).

Happily, wyroot is banned in PFS. And, as it's come up on a couple of threads, wyroot does indeed cause absolutely no damage on a critical; the target is "completely unharmed". It's magic! (Or "a peculiar quality")

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
If inappropriately sized weapons don't change handedness, then two-handed weapons get the same x3 and x1.5 regardless of who wields them or how many hands they use.

Ok, guess you win.

If you get a GM to let you wield a small Fauchard, then you can use this trick--with a -2 to hit, and everyone at the table laughing/groaning at you.

The effects of using a weapon 2 handed (x1.5 strenght bonus, x3 multiplier when using power attack) depend on how many hands you are actually using when attacking, not on the weapon category.

You use your 1 handed scimitar with 2 hands? Oh, surprise, you get x1.5 your strength bonus as a damage bonus and your power attack multiplet become x3.
You use your small 2 handed sword with one hand? You get x1 your strength bonus as damage and a x2 multiplier.

So, Quantum Steve, your argument has 0 value.
mplindustries is right, the definition don't change. Yout two handed weapon is still a two handed weapon, simply a small two handed weapon. It never become a 1 handed weapon.

Skylancer4 wrote:
mplindustries wrote:


As for the other sub-topic in this thread, I'm kind of surprised people don't know what a hafted weapon is.

Hafted weapons are those with long wooden handles. Axes, morningstars, picks, polearms, etc.

"Hafting is a process by which an artifact, often bone, metal, or stone, is attached to a haft (handle[1] or strap)."

So, if the thing is made of one solid piece of metal (like a sword or knife), then it's not hafted.

People know what they are, the rules however don't 'define' them in game terms or mechanics except in some out of the way instance(s). We are in the Rules Forum, not the General Discussion Forum, people are actually looking for the rules regarding a particular subject not someone's general life knowledge or take on 'common sense' or dictionary/wiki entry which may not mesh up with what the game rules do (like sometimes occurs).

People know how haft is normally used in D&D terminology, but the on line dictionaries have a mora broad definition:

FreeDictionary wrote:


haft (hft)
n.
A handle or hilt, especially the handle of a tool or weapon.
tr.v. haft·ed, haft·ing, hafts
To fit into or equip with a hilt or handle.
[Middle English, from Old English hæft; see kap- in Indo-European roots.]
haft [hɑːft]
n
(Military / Arms & Armour (excluding Firearms)) the handle of an axe, knife, etc.
vb
(Military / Arms & Armour (excluding Firearms)) (tr) to provide with a haft
[Old English hæft; related to Old Norse hapt, Old High German haft fetter, hefti handle]
hafter n
haft (hæft, hɑft)

n.
1. a handle, esp. of a knife, sword, or dagger.
v.t.
2. to furnish with a haft or handle; set in a haft.
[before 1000; Middle English; Old English hæft, c. Middle Low German hechte, Old High German hefti, Old Norse hepti]

Wikipedia wrote:
The hilt (rarely called the haft) of a sword is its handle, consisting of a guard, grip and pommel. The guard may contain a crossguard or quillons. A ricasso may also be present, but this is rarely the case. A tassel or sword knot may be attached to the guard or pommel.
Merriam-Webster wrote:

Definition of HAFT

: the handle of a weapon or tool
See haft defined for kids »
Examples of HAFT

<the blade of the adze is still good, but the haft is broken and will have to be replaced>

Origin of HAFT
Middle English, from Old English hæft; akin to Old English hebban to lift — more at heave
First Known Use: before 12th century
Related to HAFT

Synonyms
grip, handle, handgrip, helve

and so on.

If the GM accept the more broad usage of haft, i.e. as a synonymous of hilt, almost any weapon can have a wood hilt. The grip of a sword was often wood.

The usage of the term haft in game is generally referred to long hafted weapons, so polearms, axes and similar items and I think that is what the author intended, but there is some basis for the other interpretation, especially if you aren't steeped in the game jargon.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Modules Subscriber

I'm okay with the weapon doing no damage on a crit, having a semi-renewable arcane pool mechanic is completely worth it. The damage you lose on the weapon is more than made up for when you get back your meta magic'd shocking grasp.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Chris Mortika wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

Read it with the clear intent of the material:

"The creature hit is unharmed (by having it's life force absorbed)."

The weapon itself obviously still deals damage.

Skylancer4 wrote:
Intent and RAW aren't always the same sadly, in PFS where a more 'strict' reading of the rules are enforced you have what the words say you have :( (which is what my answer was based on).
Happily, wyroot is banned in PFS. And, as it's come up on a couple of threads, wyroot does indeed cause absolutely no damage on a critical; the target is "completely unharmed". It's magic! (Or "a peculiar quality")

You can find a official answer to that?

I can find an unofficial answer that say the opposite.

Again I must agree with mplindustries, the RAI almost surely is that it don't do extra damage but it still inflict its normal or critical damage.
Treating it in any other way make it extremely convenient for monks and magus. Small wyroot club, a few small cages with bound rats in them, or pigeons or any other kind of small animal and you have a unlimited source of Ki or Arcane point thanks to the coup de grace rule.

A more potent version of the 19th level power of a black blade for 1.000 gp ...

And that is why this stuff is banned from my games and those of the GM i know.


Diego Rossi wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
If inappropriately sized weapons don't change handedness, then two-handed weapons get the same x3 and x1.5 regardless of who wields them or how many hands they use.

Ok, guess you win.

If you get a GM to let you wield a small Fauchard, then you can use this trick--with a -2 to hit, and everyone at the table laughing/groaning at you.

The effects of using a weapon 2 handed (x1.5 strenght bonus, x3 multiplier when using power attack) depend on how many hands you are actually using when attacking, not on the weapon category.

You use your 1 handed scimitar with 2 hands? Oh, surprise, you get x1.5 your strength bonus as a damage bonus and your power attack multiplet become x3.
You use your small 2 handed sword with one hand? You get x1 your strength bonus as damage and a x2 multiplier.

So, Quantum Steve, your argument has 0 value.
mplindustries is right, the definition don't change. Yout two handed weapon is still a two handed weapon, simply a small two handed weapon. It never become a 1 handed weapon.

Sigh...

Did you even bother to read the rules passages I quoted and highlighted. The rules clearly state that two-handed weapons get 1.5x STR and 3:1 returns on Power Attack and make absolutely no mention of how many hands you use wield said two-handed weapon.

Ahem...

PRD wrote:
You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

I don't know how to state it more clearly.

You get 3:1 PA on:
two-handed weapons
one handed weapons using two hands
primary natural weapons that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls

That means:
ALL two-handed weapons
ALL one handed weapons using two hands
ALL primary natural weapons that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls

All two handed weapons, All two handed weapons It doesn't matter how many hands you use to wield said two-handed weapons because Power Attack gives 3:1 returns on ALL TWO HANDED WEAPONS!

PRD wrote:
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

This is even more cut and dry. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a two-handed weapon.

Two Handed Weapon: 1.5x STR to damage. Period.

...

Now, I'll concede that the section on Inappropriately Sized Weapons could be read to suggest that the weapon doesn't actually change, but if they don't, then two handed weapons will always give 1.5x STR and 3:1 PA when wielded one-handed.
The rules on that cannot be read any other way.


Quantum Steve wrote:
PRD wrote:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.

The PRD was quoted by Quantum Steve a while ago, though he bolded a different part. The part I bolded would appear to say inappropriately sized weapons do in fact change type. It should be noted the phrase in parentheses is an appositive, a type of grammatical phrase with the purpose to clarify the noun phrase directly before it.

Quantum Steve's comment about a Small sized weapon that would be two-handed in Medium size was sort of a "this is the opposite of my argument, and isn't it ridiculous?" sort of a comment, I thought.

My point, of course, being that a Small Greatsword (for example) being wielded by a Medium sized Magus would qualify for Spell Combat. I think that's what this whole discussion started being about. Or something. Whatever.


Diego Rossi wrote:
If the GM accept the more broad usage of haft, i.e. as a synonymous of hilt, almost any weapon can have a wood hilt. The grip of a sword was often wood.

There's just no way for the grip of a sword to be made of wood unless you're just wrapping the metal in wood, which seems silly. The blade and hilt have to be one single solid piece, or the sword is going to break in half after a few impacts.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There is always the Great Terbutje (1d10 19-20/x2).

It can be made out of Wyroot, and wielded in two hands as a Martial Weapon.

You will need Exotic Weapon Proficiency to use it One handed though.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:
If the GM accept the more broad usage of haft, i.e. as a synonymous of hilt, almost any weapon can have a wood hilt. The grip of a sword was often wood.
There's just no way for the grip of a sword to be made of wood unless you're just wrapping the metal in wood, which seems silly. The blade and hilt have to be one single solid piece, or the sword is going to break in half after a few impacts.

Ever had a real sword in hand? I had the occasion to handle a few Napoleonic swords. The hilt was wood around a core of metal and originally was covered by rough leather or cloth for a better grip.

Like a pistol grip was wood or ivory and now is plastic.

From wikipedia:

Grip
The grip is the handle of the sword. It was usually of wood or metal, and often covered with shagreen (untanned tough leather or shark skin). Shark skin proved to be the most durable in temperate climates but deteriorated in hot climates, and consequently rubber became popular in the latter half of the 19th century. Alternatively, many sword types opt for ray skin instead, referred to in katana construction as the "same". Whatever material covered the grip, it was usually both glued on and held on with wire wrapped around it in a helix.

In full armored battle however, the grip was often only used with one hand (even on two-handed swords), and the blade was gripped partway up, thus allowing the fighter to thrust the blade horizontally, with both hands, into the opponent—a practice known as 'half-swording'.


Diego Rossi, I was essential arguing the same point in regards to the meaning of haft. But I came around to agree with mplindustries in regards to what it means in Pathfinder after seeing Table 7-12 Common Armor and Shield Hardness and Hit Points it specically lists hafted weapons as different than blades.

Also to go to the PRD and search for "hafted" you will get a couple results that say haft or hafted followed by something like "such as an axe or spear" (Wood Affinity and whipwood) as well as mutiple references to weapons consistent with what mplindustries is saying.

While in the real world the definition of the word haft is not so clear, for game purposes at the very least, blades like daggers and swords shouldn't be treated at hafted.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
GreenMandar wrote:

Diego Rossi, I was essential arguing the same point in regards to the meaning of haft. But I came around to agree with mplindustries in regards to what it means in Pathfinder after seeing Table 7-12 Common Armor and Shield Hardness and Hit Points it specically lists hafted weapons as different than blades.

Also to go to the PRD and search for "hafted" you will get a couple results that say haft or hafted followed by something like "such as an axe or spear" (Wood Affinity and whipwood) as well as mutiple references to weapons consistent with what mplindustries is saying.

While in the real world the definition of the word haft is not so clear, for game purposes at the very least, blades like daggers and swords shouldn't be treated at hafted.

I agree completely, in game usage of the term is clear if you read the context in which it appear, I was simply arguing that the real word usage is different.

I simply have this doggish stubbornness, when I bite an argument I rarely release it if i felt I have a basis for what I say.

mplindustries saying "There's just no way for the grip of a sword to be made of wood " was like waving a red flag in front of a bull.
:D


Diego Rossi wrote:
mplindustries saying "There's just no way for the grip of a sword to be made of wood " was like waving a red flag in front of a bull.

Well, not to be contentious or anything, but I was right. Your evidence all (correctly) suggests that they wrapped the metal core of the hilt in wood. So, they didn't make it out of wood, they just added some wood on to the side. :P

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Card Game, Companion, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You know what the term "grip" mean?
It is not "the metal core", it is the part around the metal core.
What you are speaking of is the tang.

For a very good reference go here.

The relevant parts:

grip refers to the portion of the hilt assembly covering the tang which is grasped by the sword bearer's hand. Grips may be contoured for security and comfort and or after fashion. A core of wood or horn usually forms the bulk of the grip, although metal is not unknown, covering the narrower tang. Wood and horn were likely chosen for their shock absorbing capabilities as well as for workability. In medieval European contexts, most often this core is a single cylinder of wood, painstakingly hollowed out to snugly fit over the tang. In other examples, two wooden halves join in the plane of the edges of the blade. The core of the grip was usually covered with leather; coverings of metal plates, wire and fabric are also sporadically encountered.

tang refers to the unsharpened end of the sword blade which, in use, is covered by the grip and other components of the hilt or handle. The tang will usually taper in width and thickness from the area of the lower guard or quillion block towards the pommel. The heat treatment of the tang will favor malleability (or bendability) over the brittleness which accompanies increasing hardness. In some cases, the tang will even be of different composition and welded to the root of the blade. Maker's marks may occasionally be found on the tang.

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