Five-foot step / attack action ideas

[Doorhandle]

I have two ideas for these, and I'm putting them up here for feedback/catching things I haven't considered

1. For every 5 full points of B.A.B, you may take another 5-ft step in any round where you could normally take one. You can take these steps in-between attacks, or consecutively.

Hopefully this will result in more movement in combat, partially full-B.A.B ones who need the help for mobility while full-attacking.
Problem is, if 2 characters are already in mutually good positions, nether of them are going to move. Not sure how to change that. Also, the monk is shafted again, but I have an inkling on how to fix that.

1b. TWF, I.TWF, and G.TWF give an additional 5ft step along with their additional attack. Likewise, a monk with flurry gets five-foot steps as if he had full B.A.B and the above feats

Partially there because the stereotype of dual-wielders is that they're the fast ones, partially to make it worth the feat investment, and mostly because the monk is supposed to be hyper-mobile but couldn't flurry and BE mobile at the same time.

2. All attack-feats that were standard actions to use (Cleave, awesome blow, ect.) are now attack actions, but each can be used only once/round.

This means that a dragon, for ensample, could use a vital-strike bite, an awesome-blow claw, and a great cleaving tail swipe all in the same full attack.

The exception to this is spring attack (because I can't figure out how the hell that would work in a full attack) but you could use great Cleave + spring attack simultaneously, for example.

Also former attack actions (like stunning fist and perfect strike) can all be used on the same attack simultaneously. For instance a monk with the appropriate feats could make a stunning elemental punishing perfect strike.

Again, the purpose is to make full attacks more interesting/flexible, and to buffer their power up a bit. Might make vital strike too powerful, though seeing as it is now a zero-cost damage increase: and monsters tend to have better damage die than P.Cs.

Thoughts? Comments? Critique? What will this affect, both melee and the game as a whole?

[Azaelas Fayth]

Dot.

[+5 Toaster]

this is an idea worth watching

[Kazaan]

I like the idea about additional 5' steps, though it should be capped at a total distance no greater than the character's movement speed. It wouldn't make much sense that a character with 20' of movement can take 25 total feet of 5' steps in a round.

I don't, however, agree with down-stepping all standard Use Feat actions into Attack actions. They're Use Feat actions for a reason; many would be quite game-breaking if they could be combined with abilities that modify the Attack action. Furthermore, a Full-Attack action is an entirely separate animal from an Attack action. The Dragon in your example could not do Vital-Strike bite, Awesome-blow Claw, and great cleaving tail swipe in a full-attack action because the Full-Attack action is, explicitly, not the Attack action. Additionally, you can already combine multiple alterations to the Attack action into a single attack. You can make a vital-strike, overhand chop, stunning, elemental, punishing, perfect strike Attack action with no alteration.

I see what you're trying to do, however, and I thought of an idea in response to another thread where someone needed to be able to upgrade his move action to a standard to make a particular combination of abilities worthwhile at level 1, otherwise the effect of one ability would wear off before he could take advantage of it with the other ability. If you need to, for whatever reason, take two standard actions in the same turn, you can take on the Nauseated condition for the following turn to do so. So, between 2 turns, you'll have 2 standard actions and one move action with the two standards on turn 1 and the move on turn 2. This can alleviate some of the action economy baggage and allow more fluid, organic couplings of abilities right at level 1 (where, quite frankly, you need all the help you can get). You'll tend to get the same average DPR because you're still averaging 1 standard per round. Cinematically speaking, it represents physically straining yourself to an extreme degree to pull off two separate standard actions and then having to overcome that strain and recover on your next turn.

[DM_Blake]

Kazaan wrote:

If you need to, for whatever reason, take two standard actions in the same turn, you can take on the Nauseated condition for the following turn to do so.

Are you suggesting you move so fast that you vomit?

I know, the Nauseated condition doesn't implicitly say you vomit, but it does say you have "stomach distress" and cannot do anything that round but a move action. I personally see that as you're bent over hurling your last meal all over the floor, but I suppose you could just be trying to tough it out and keep yourself from barfing.

Thankfully, it didn't say "intestinal distress"; that would just be too embarrassing.

[Azaelas Fayth]

I think it would work better to allow it to increase the Movement you take during your 5 Foot Step up to a maximum of either 1/2 your Max Movement or your Max Movement.

[Doorhandle]

Wow, Thanks for the support!

Anyway, in order.
Kazaan: Hmm, didn't intend for you to be able to use cleave/vital strike/awesome blow on the SAME attack, just in the same full-round attack action. Don't think there's a way to solve that without being annoyingly specific, however.

Maximum distance limited by movement sounds about right.

Also, can't you already use stunning fist as part of a full-attack? Because that's what I mean for the other abilities.

Blake: Umm, I think he's just using nauseated because it's the go-to "can only take a move action" condition. It's a game balance thing.

I don't like the idea too much myself though. I think it will only make the game even more rocket-tag, partially at low levels where every hit-point counts. Sure, they will be vulnerable after the first round but if your foe is already dead that's not much of an issue. Also, at high-levels, being able to cast 3 spells at once sounds like a bit much, even if the wizard is reduce to a move action for a round.

Faith: Good thinking, but I would still like the idea of being to use the steps intermittently between attacks.

In general for the 5-ft-step idea: How can we limit this while still allowing a large array of movement? I've realised that all these 5ft steps will allow a monster to run rings around players with the party being able to slow it. Sure A.O.Os work but then they lock-down too much of the movement in melee, and not doing that is half the point of this houserule.

I was thinking allowing players to take 5-foot-steps as a reaction to this, in order to interpose themselves between the creature and where it wants to go, so long as it was moving out/within their threatened area. if they want to move AWAY from it, however, they have to do it on their own turn.

(Also have an idea for shields but I think the current topic needs more work first.)
Thoughts? Comments? Critique?

[Kazaan]

Doorhandle wrote:

Wow, Thanks for the support!

Anyway, in order.
Kazaan: Hmm, didn't intend for you to be able to use cleave/vital strike/awesome blow on the SAME attack, just in the same full-round attack action. Don't think there's a way to solve that without being annoyingly specific, however.

Maximum distance limited by movement sounds about right.

Also, can't you already use stunning fist as part of a full-attack? Because that's what I mean for the other abilities.

Regarding cleave/vs/ab, they can't be used in a full-round even now. all of them require either the Attack action or a standard Use Feat action. For Cleave and Awesome Blow, you must spend a standard action to Use Feat to perform them; that means they can't couple with any other ability except those that aren't limited to a specific action (ie. power attack, lunge, etc). Vital Strike can only be done with the Attack action so it will only combine with other abilities that modify the Attack action (ie. Two-Handed Fighter's Overhand Chop ability). Elemental Fist isn't limited to an action so you could make any attack an Elemental Fist; the melee attack at the end of a Charge, any single attack in a Full-Attack, your attack for the Attack action, an AoO, anything.

[Doorhandle]

Kazaan wrote:

Doorhandle wrote:

Wow, Thanks for the support!

Anyway, in order.
Kazaan: Hmm, didn't intend for you to be able to use cleave/vital strike/awesome blow on the SAME attack, just in the same full-round attack action. Don't think there's a way to solve that without being annoyingly specific, however.

Maximum distance limited by movement sounds about right.

Also, can't you already use stunning fist as part of a full-attack? Because that's what I mean for the other abilities.

Regarding cleave/vs/ab, they can't be used in a full-round even now. all of them require either the Attack action or a standard Use Feat action. For Cleave and Awesome Blow, you must spend a standard action to Use Feat to perform them; that means they can't couple with any other ability except those that aren't limited to a specific action (ie. power attack, lunge, etc). Vital Strike can only be done with the Attack action so it will only combine with other abilities that modify the Attack action (ie. Two-Handed Fighter's Overhand Chop ability). Elemental Fist isn't limited to an action so you could make any attack an Elemental Fist; the melee attack at the end of a Charge, any single attack in a Full-Attack, your attack for the Attack action, an AoO, anything.

Hmmm... so I need to change how I'm house-ruling, then.

edit: My idea for shields:

3. In addition to the A.C bonus, shields now offer a block rating. This equals your A.C (with the shield bonus, as normal)+ the shield bonus again.

If an attack hits A.C but is below your block ratting, it hits the shield instead: Treat it as a sunder attempt, applying hardness, bonuses to destroying objects, ect. as normal. If it's higher than both block-rating and A.C, it hits as normal. Things without shields don't get a block-rating.

An example: Timmy the warrior is wielding a heavy shield and it attacked by Bob the orc. Timmy's normal A.C is 12, with shield, and his block rating is 14. If Bob rolls below that, he misses, as normal. If he rolls 13 (between normal A.C of 12 and block rating of 14), he hits the shield but not Timmy, and deals damage against it with hardness as normal. If Bob rolls above 14, he hits Timmy directly.

Feats that improve your A.C when wielding a shield (like shield focus) also apply to block rating, as does total defence and enhancement bonuses to shields. Not sure whether block rating should be improved by turtle style or other deflection bonuses.

This would change the shield spell so it adds to block rating as well, and things hitting it's block-rating would be trying to break a (very tiny) wall of force.

Critical hits ignore block rating (because they auto-hit, duh), and confirmation rolls just need to hit A.C (The shield bonus to A.C applies as normal, however.)

Not sure where the cut-off-point where a shield no-longer applies this bonus should be. Broken? Destroyed?

Also would it make sense/be unfair if being flanked means that you can't apply block rating (because you can't point it in two directions at once)? Improved uncanny dodge would, of course, prevent that. Being caught flatfooted would also make you loose block rating.

[Azaelas Fayth]

Add in the ability to divide a 5-Foot Step's Movement in increments when combined with a Full-Attack.

[Dabbler]

Why not just say you lose one incremental attack for each 5' step beyond the first that you make? It's much simpler, and throws in the balance factor between attacks and movement while retaining some mobility for martial characters.