New GM - Does PFS really define PVP as killing characters only?

[Dhjika]

I see PCs damaging PCs all the time, even when it is unwanted -and judges usually say nothing.

Looking at the Pathfinder Guide to Play, they define PVP as one character killing another character.

Is it really that simple, all the attacks on fellow characters are OK as long as the character in question isn't killed by another character?

Thanks in Advance,

[Patrick Harris @ SD]

Locally, we don't allow any damage between PCs without permission. So if someone's going to take a single hit point of splash damage from alchemist's fire, you have to make sure they're okay with it first. (They usually are, but that's a separate issue.)

I assume you're talking about AoE spells that damage big areas, and not just PCs hitting each other out of boredom, right?

[Dhjika]

As a player I see alchemists hitting other people all the time - and not just on misses - and other area effect casters as well. However as a judge what/where do I cite when I tell players they cannot damage other characters without their permission? And does that apply to non-lethal damage? or effects that don't do damage like color spray?

So locally for your PFS, if someone objects you tell the person using the effect to use something else?

The Guide to Organized Play has a header of no Player vs Player Combat but the text goes on to say you can't kill another character. And that doesn't really cover targeting characters because they are in the way, not because they want them dead.

And if it is OK for characters to damage characters is it OK for PCs to club a fellow PC unconscious with non-lethal damage when that character is being an a*****e to NPC as long as they don't kill him?

Thanks in Advance,

[Christopher Rowe]

Keep reading past the PvP section into the next section, "Do Not Bully Other Players," where it says "Extreme forms of dysfunctional play will not be tolerated."

At my tables, I rule pretty much any form of PvP as dysfunctional and do not tolerate it.

[TetsujinOni]

Chris, when the dysfunctional play is coming from the PC that's about to be clubbed down, what do you do?

I.e. the player is violating Don't Be A Jerk, and the rest of the party is trying to recover the situation...

What then?

[Oncoming_Storm]

This nonlethal damage idea is a fun one...

Paladin making things hard for the party? SAP TIME.

Chelish player wants to enslave everything in sight? SAP TIME.

Wizard wants to Fireball in a small hallway? SAP TIME.

[Christopher Rowe]

I believe the onus is generally on the GM in PFS, not the other players, to enforce the Don't Be a Jerk rule, personally.

[Chris Mortika]

Dhjika wrote:

As a player I see alchemists hitting other people all the time - and not just on misses - and other area effect casters as well. However as a judge what/where do I cite when I tell players they cannot damage other characters without their permission? And does that apply to non-lethal damage? or effects that don't do damage like color spray?

So locally for your PFS, if someone objects you tell the person using the effect to use something else?

That's pretty much how I rule it, yes. It applies to knocking people out with spells, dominating them, all that stuff.

And it absolutely applies to non-lethal damage. (Have you ever seen somebody die from non-lethal damage? I sure have.)

Oh!! And hey! Welcome to GMing!

[Dennis Baker]

Christopher Rowe wrote:

Keep reading past the PvP section into the next section, "Do Not Bully Other Players," where it says "Extreme forms of dysfunctional play will not be tolerated."

At my tables, I rule pretty much any form of PvP as dysfunctional and do not tolerate it.

Pretty much this. There's no reason to try and pin down a laundry list of specifics.

Don't do something to another person's PC unless they are cool with it.

[pauljathome]

We also use the Player Permission rule up here to handle AoEs, splash damage, etc. In practice, the person only asks when it is obviously a very good idea and I've virtually never seen the recipient say no.

We DO allow actual PVP combat if both players agree. Sometimes the only reasonable action is for one PC to slap another PC upside the head (usually for non lethal damage but not always). The player often agrees to be smacked upside the head since he KNOWS that he is playing his character in an annoying (to other characters, generally highly amusing to the other players) way.

[David_Bross]

Generally with regards to AoE I can't see why this would be seen as PvP. Typically it is only considered by someone when there are obvious tactical merits to including their ally, and almost everyone I've ever played with asks "how you doing on health" before heaping some damage on their allies.

If people ARE being a Jerk and attempting to break the PvP rule, that would be up to the GM to stop. If a player was upset (at the time, not later because of the consequences of said action), that should also be dealt with.

As a player I've certainly hit other players with AoE before, and when they expressed their unhappyness with it, I didn't repeat the action the following round, which I think is in keeping with the "Don't be a Jerk" rule. (To be fair, they were invisible, and my character would have had no way of knowing he was going to hit them, even if I did as a player).

[Deidre Tiriel]

This:

pauljathome wrote:

We also use the Player Permission rule up here to handle AoEs, splash damage, etc. In practice, the person only asks when it is obviously a very good idea and I've virtually never seen the recipient say no.

Not This:

pauljathome wrote:

We DO allow actual PVP combat if both players agree. Sometimes the only reasonable action is for one PC to slap another PC upside the head (usually for non lethal damage but not always). The player often agrees to be smacked upside the head since he KNOWS that he is playing his character in an annoying (to other characters, generally highly amusing to the other players) way.

[Brian Darnell]

I am very strict about it at my tables. No targeting of any damaging effect without mind control and if any AOE would damage a character it requires permission from the player. I take responsibility as the GM for it.

I find that this conduces good game play and helps promote a friendly environment.

[Mergy]

Deidre Tiriel wrote:

This:

pauljathome wrote:

We also use the Player Permission rule up here to handle AoEs, splash damage, etc. In practice, the person only asks when it is obviously a very good idea and I've virtually never seen the recipient say no.

Not This:

pauljathome wrote:

We DO allow actual PVP combat if both players agree. Sometimes the only reasonable action is for one PC to slap another PC upside the head (usually for non lethal damage but not always). The player often agrees to be smacked upside the head since he KNOWS that he is playing his character in an annoying (to other characters, generally highly amusing to the other players) way.

Understand, when Paul says this, that he speaks only of an encounter that involves no threat to the character. A good example is a non-lethal slap that is healed with the slapper's own resources (especially with a wand). Both players must also agree on it, and it must be approached in a mature manner.

I don't see a problem with it, but please state a reason for your objections.

[Rei]

We had an incident some time ago in my area in a high-level game where the cleric killed the monk with a fireball. The monk was a little too confident that he'd dodge it, both IC and OOC. Neither of them will ever hear the end of it. (The monk was raised and bears no ill will towards the cleric. They still adventure together.)

On the flipside, I've also seen a GM rule that a character couldn't throw an alchemist's fire (I think - this was way back in Season 0 and a fairly low tier, so I don't think it was a fireball) in a way where the splash damage would hit a PC. Both players were okay with this, both characters would have been ready to do this, but the GM ruled it would be metagaming to know the splash damage wouldn't knock out or kill the slightly wounded PC.

[Mike Mistele]

As discussed in another thread a few weeks ago...many (myself included) will consider using infernal healing on another character to be PVP, if the player of the character being healed in this manner objects (this'd usually be if the character is a paladin, a good-aligned cleric, or another character who simply doesn't like the concept).

[Mike Lindner]

As you can probably tell, the answer varies in different regions or even just different groups. Talk to the other people you play with to see what they think.

Around here we aren't so strict as some. Go ahead and throw that fireball at the enemies even if you hit an ally to do so, but make sure to at least ask first. What I won't allow as a GM is including an ally if you can do otherwise - such as an alchemist with precise bombs hitting allies with the splash when they can choose not to.

[Rob Duncan]

I look at it from an intent perspective:

P1: I launch a fireball. P2: Uh... dude.. I'm right here.. GM: Are you sure you want to do that? P1: Is that okay? P2: Yeah, I can dodge it!

This is okay.

P1: I launch a fireball. P2: Uh... dude.. I'm right here.. P2: FIRE IN THE HOLE! P2: Uh... that will kill me.. P3: SEND IT!

This is not okay.

If you're being inconsiderate (or killing other people), no go.

[Avatar-1]

Robert Duncan wrote:

I look at it from an intent perspective:

P1: I launch a fireball. P2: Uh... dude.. I'm right here.. GM: Are you sure you want to do that? P1: Is that okay? P2: Yeah, I can dodge it!

This is okay.

P1: I launch a fireball. P2: Uh... dude.. I'm right here.. P2: FIRE IN THE HOLE! P2: Uh... that will kill me.. P3: SEND IT!

This is not okay.

If you're being inconsiderate (or killing other people), no go.

I pretty much agree with this, although the second is an extreme example.

If P1 is launching a fireball, and it'll hit P2, even if it won't kill P2, or even if he has a great chance of dodging it, if he doesn't want P1 to be casting it where it can hit him, P1 doesn't get to cast it to hit that player (P1 doesn't "lose the spell", they just have to cast it elsewhere or do something else).

[Finlanderboy]

The player has to know about it too.

I was playing my gnome and readied an action to color spray the on coming villain. I had another player go invisible get like a 20+ stealth to attack the guy as he was coming at me. Moving right into my readied action. The DM agreed with me it is not PVP since I had no idea he was invisible sitting there.

Then the party left him there invisble unconscious blind and stunned. It was hilarious.