Pretend you're my GM - what would you do?


Conversions

Silver Crusade

Recently I've converted two of my PCs from the 3.5 system to Pathfinder. I have no current plans for these PCs to be involved in a campaign anytime in the near future, so the conversion was really just for my own kicks and giggles.

However, at the end of the conversion process, I came to a dilemma whose solution is GM-dependent: both PCs are woefully short of the wealth by level target given on Table 12-4, p.399 of the Core Rulebook.

The PCs had just achieved 13th level when I stopped playing them in the 3.5 system. According to the CRB, their wealth target is 140,000gp. I know this number is intended as a general target / rule, but one of my PCs is 45,000gp short of it, and the other is 62,000gp short. These are significant gaps, and if I played either of my PCs with a group of PCs that was on target with their wealth, they'd be seriously underpowered. (You can buy some fun toys for 45,000-62,000gp!)

So all you GMs out there - please let me know what you would do to address this dilemma if I wanted to use one of these PCs in your campaign.

Liberty's Edge

I would probably try to do a side gone off game with them to integrate then into the group that included treasure to bring them on par with the rest of the group.

Silver Crusade

If we happened to be starting at the same level as that character, I would give you the same amount of spending gold as everyone else. If that means you get more stuff than you had in your last campaign, you get more stuff.

Just because you used the character before doesn't change anything for the current game, other than you have more backstory for that character. If you want to roleplay money, write in your own reason your character got a sudden windfall, or just pretend you got more money from each of those adventures all along.

This would be the same in the opposite scenario of the pre-played character having more gold than standard. You get the same amount of starting gold as everyone else, and that could mean you have to choose some stuff to downgrade/get rid of. Just because your previous GM was exceptionally generous/stingy does not mean you should be benefitted/penalized more than anyone else.


I'd just let you start out with the additional gold or let you spend it before the campaign started. Preferably the latter, unless everyone in the party wanted an adventure at the local magic mall. No reason to start you short, wealth can be important for keeping up after all.

Silver Crusade

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These are great suggestions - many thanks!

Thinking back to where these PCs left off, they were mid-way through an adventure in which they were fighting A LOT of giants and tracking them to their lair(s) to learn about their operations in the region.

Our party had almost caught the leader and his lackeys when they got away ... and took all of their loot with them!

So the side adventure / backstory / windfall of additional wealth could simply be that the PCs' party finally caught up to the giants, defeated them, and got their loot. I think this is a pretty reasonable solution, and hopefully my future GM would agree.

Again, thanks for the ideas!

Sczarni

I agree that there's no reason you shouldn't have the same amount of gold as the other players, but as a GM I'd be a little leery of just handing a PC 62,000 gp and telling him to go shopping. There's some quite ridiculous things a PC can do with that kind of spending money.

More likely I'd offer to give the PC 62,000 gp worth of gear and magic items. That way I can make sure they're not combing through every PDF looking for items that can break the game, but still make sure they're equipped properly. Also, this would be a great way to give the new player some idea of what kind of a campaign this is going to be. If I give him tricked out magic weapons and armor, that sends a different signal than if I give him a small pile of Wondrous Items. If I give him a Folding Boat, a Hat of Disguise, and a Ring of Feather Fall, he knows he'll probably get a chance to use them.

Of course, I wouldn't use this as an opportunity to screw the guy over. I'd make sure that what I give him matches what class he is (no plate mail for the wizard, for example). If I upgraded his weapon from +2 to +5, I'd let him choose which special properties get added to it. If I gave him a stat-increasing belt or headband, it'd be for a stat that he'll actually use. I wouldn't give him too much in the form of consumables-- a few wands are fine if I want to make sure the party has access to a certain spell, but 62,000 gp worth of scrolls would be an insult even to a wizard.


In general to start in a campaign I would let you bring your character up to par with the other characters.

I wouldn't have any real problem with just giving you the extra gold and asking you to run your purchase requests by me. If I saw anything goofy, I'd probably suggest something else. In general though I'd let you purchase what you wanted.

For role playing purposes I'd probably have some rich patron reward you for your past bravery and throw you a lavish party.

Liberty's Edge

If I were your GM and if I had enough time, I would run a few adventures by you so that you can get the needed loot.

If I did not have enough time, I would ask you to spend the missing GPs as if you had earned them the hard way and check how you do it. It would be a very good litmus test IMO to see if we can play well together.

Liberty's Edge

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I don't use the Wealth by Level tables. Players sometimes like to use them as support for arguments that they are entitled to certain levels of wealth...

If players want to bring in characters from other games, I review ALL aspects of the characters. For wealth, I look at the highs and lows for each character as well as the items that they carry (in case there are any items I would not allow) and then come up with a list of changes to propose to the group. Hopefully, this would lead to a happy compromise.

Note, that could mean lowering the overall wealth of the group too...not just allowing 'buying up'.

Silver Crusade

Silent Saturn wrote:

I agree that there's no reason you shouldn't have the same amount of gold as the other players, but as a GM I'd be a little leery of just handing a PC 62,000 gp and telling him to go shopping. There's some quite ridiculous things a PC can do with that kind of spending money.

More likely I'd offer to give the PC 62,000 gp worth of gear and magic items. That way I can make sure they're not combing through every PDF looking for items that can break the game, but still make sure they're equipped properly. Also, this would be a great way to give the new player some idea of what kind of a campaign this is going to be. If I give him tricked out magic weapons and armor, that sends a different signal than if I give him a small pile of Wondrous Items. If I give him a Folding Boat, a Hat of Disguise, and a Ring of Feather Fall, he knows he'll probably get a chance to use them.

Of course, I wouldn't use this as an opportunity to screw the guy over. I'd make sure that what I give him matches what class he is (no plate mail for the wizard, for example). If I upgraded his weapon from +2 to +5, I'd let him choose which special properties get added to it. If I gave him a stat-increasing belt or headband, it'd be for a stat that he'll actually use. I wouldn't give him too much in the form of consumables-- a few wands are fine if I want to make sure the party has access to a certain spell, but 62,000 gp worth of scrolls would be an insult even to a wizard.

Ah, the honor system, for both player and GM; some very good points!

This makes a lot of sense. I'd probably (because I'm a bit on the obsessive side) make a list of items I'd like to spend the money on and present it to the GM before just showing up to play with all that stuff and expecting everything to be OK.

Thanks for your input, Silent Saturn!

Silver Crusade

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

In general to start in a campaign I would let you bring your character up to par with the other characters.

I wouldn't have any real problem with just giving you the extra gold and asking you to run your purchase requests by me. If I saw anything goofy, I'd probably suggest something else. In general though I'd let you purchase what you wanted.

For role playing purposes I'd probably have some rich patron reward you for your past bravery and throw you a lavish party.

Thanks for your response, Adamantine Dragon. The party idea sounds great! I wonder if I could get something like that to happen in real life ...

Silver Crusade

The black raven wrote:

If I were your GM and if I had enough time, I would run a few adventures by you so that you can get the needed loot.

If I did not have enough time, I would ask you to spend the missing GPs as if you had earned them the hard way and check how you do it. It would be a very good litmus test IMO to see if we can play well together.

Thanks, Black Raven. Given that I have a 6-month-old child at home, time for extra adventures - like my PCs' wealth - is a resource I'm woefully short on at the moment. Looks like we'd be taking your 2nd option!


Have them kill a bandit chief with neat stuff. Make it one encounter.

Silver Crusade

RedDogMT wrote:

I don't use the Wealth by Level tables. Players sometimes like to use them as support for arguments that they are entitled to certain levels of wealth...

If players want to bring in characters from other games, I review ALL aspects of the characters. For wealth, I look at the highs and lows for each character as well as the items that they carry (in case there are any items I would not allow) and then come up with a list of changes to propose to the group. Hopefully, this would lead to a happy compromise.

Note, that could mean lowering the overall wealth of the group too...not just allowing 'buying up'.

Thanks for responding, RedDogMT - a very reasonable approach. I think my greatest concern for these PCs is that they'd be on par with their other party members. If they fit as-is, that would be fine with me. (Though I might make a case to my GM to throw my fighter a bone; his weapon and armor situation is a bit lame at the moment due to some unfortunate events in previous adventures.)

Silver Crusade

Marthkus wrote:
Have them kill a bandit chief with neat stuff. Make it one encounter.

Thanks for your idea, Marthkus.

One encounter with a 107,000gp reward? That would be one whopping battle! As would be the follow-up battle between my PCs over how much loot each one of them gets ...


If you agreed to this, my first reaction would be to scrap all of your 3.5 gear and wealth and just start with a clean 140,000 GP to spend on Pathfinder items. My only stipulation would be to equip similar items when possible to what you had in 3.5. For example, if you WERE wearing a suit of +1 full plate, I would ask that your new converted character have a suit of full plate OF SOME KIND equipped. It could simply be a suit of masterwork full plate, or it could be a +2 full plate - just as long as you are similarly equipped to your old character. Any extra leftover gold could be spent however you see fit. Since this is a special case, I would want to compare your new GP allotment to your old 3.5 character's gear and GP, but as long as your newly equipped Pathfinder character isn't wildly different than he was in 3.5 (besides new gear or upgrades gained from the extra GP), I would think that a clean start with 140,000 GP would be the easiest and best way to go about it, and would go that route if you were of a similar mind. If you as a player don't like this approach, I would be willing to explore other alternatives with you.

EDIT: I suggest this because to me, your character's wealth allotment is a mechanic. It might seem odd that you suddenly have a ton of extra GP, but keep in mind that this is a character conversion. The system is different from 3.5. So it's okay that you "suddenly" have more GP, because that's what the conversion dictates. There's no NEED to roleplay or justify the sudden jump in GP other than the fact that you're playing a converted character. If you absolutely WANT to just earn the extra GP from adventuring because you don't want to feel like you're cheating, that's fine - but I would warn you that at least in starting out, you would be playing an under-geared Pathfinder character, since he hasn't been completely converted properly... my 2 cents from a fellow DM. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It would depend on a lot of things.

1. I would convert all of your gear towards Pathfinder equivalents. That conversion alone may very well change the equation right off the bat. After that it would be a case by case basis on what you had and where in level are you.

2. Wealth by level target is just a loose guideline, if what you have in my judgement at the end of step 1, makes you viable, then I don't see a reason for change.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Depends.

If you are solo-ing it, or you are with a party of other people who are also 3.5 converts and have a similar disparity, then I do nothing to your gear. I consider your APL to be 1 less as a result, and build my encounters accordingly. It'll correct itself over time.

If you are joining up with characters that already full-wealthed by the PF terms of play, then it's worth trying to figure out how to bring you more in line. Depends on the campaign. Since you're converting over from 3.5, that leads me to believe you've got some sort of story there: let's look at that story, and see what you picked up on your "journey over to Pathfinder" as it were.


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In our ROTL campaign my character died. When I made his replacement the DM just told me to use the appropriate WBL from the table. I did.

I came to the table with a great deal more wealth than the rest of the party, as a result. (8 people in the campaign with little adjustment made to wealth). We, the group, had been handling things fine- the death was a mistake on my part.

But now my new character was out of whack. The DM decided to "impart" wealth to the rest of the group so everyone would be at the same wealth level.

If I was your DM I would adjust your wealth to be equivalent to that of the group's average wealth. If this means you get more cash, you get more. If it means you get some gear chopped, you get some gear chopped. Whether or not this number was anywhere close to the WBL in the book though would largely be happenstance.

-S


Probably unhelpful answers:

1) If I were your GM, I'd strip all the items away anyway, because I don't use magic items at all.

2) If I did happen to use magic items in the game I was running, I would strip all your gear away, then give you the amount of wealth you should have and have you re-buy everything.

3) I would not let you bring a converted character into a pathfinder game, however--I would prefer you used my character creation rules, whatever those might be, and if you can make someone reminiscent of the 3.5 guy, then awesome, otherwise, too bad.


In my game characters come in under WBL all the time and it works itself out.

If for instance everybody else has a +2 ring of protection while you only have a +1 ring of protection then when the +3 ring shows up you're looking like a pretty good candidate for it.

A sweet pair of boots shows up. all the full WBL PCs already have a pair of magic boots so score for you.

I find that sort of thing tends to organicly level out party wealth a lot of the time.

But then we tend to use WBL as a guideline more than a hard and fast rule.

- Torger


Revix Belstrann II wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
Have them kill a bandit chief with neat stuff. Make it one encounter.

Thanks for your idea, Marthkus.

One encounter with a 107,000gp reward? That would be one whopping battle! As would be the follow-up battle between my PCs over how much loot each one of them gets ...

Only have the poor PCs do it. Get them the gear they need without a shopping spree or killing a lot of time.

*All the gear would be in a chest that only the bandit chief had the key for. He didn't trust his comrades enough to keep all that wealth in the open.


You haven't posted the characters or their kit, so it's a bit hard to say exactly. But I'd upgrade their existing kit to some extent by adding extra plusses to weapons, armour and buffs, bumping CLs on wands and scrolls and so on. After all, a D&D-type PC is defined to a large extent by his kit, so it ought to be essentially the same kit. Then add anything that seems like a major omission and let them pick a modest toy each in the 10k range.

Silver Crusade

Sinatar wrote:

If you agreed to this, my first reaction would be to scrap all of your 3.5 gear and wealth and just start with a clean 140,000 GP to spend on Pathfinder items. My only stipulation would be to equip similar items when possible to what you had in 3.5. For example, if you WERE wearing a suit of +1 full plate, I would ask that your new converted character have a suit of full plate OF SOME KIND equipped. It could simply be a suit of masterwork full plate, or it could be a +2 full plate - just as long as you are similarly equipped to your old character. Any extra leftover gold could be spent however you see fit. Since this is a special case, I would want to compare your new GP allotment to your old 3.5 character's gear and GP, but as long as your newly equipped Pathfinder character isn't wildly different than he was in 3.5 (besides new gear or upgrades gained from the extra GP), I would think that a clean start with 140,000 GP would be the easiest and best way to go about it, and would go that route if you were of a similar mind. If you as a player don't like this approach, I would be willing to explore other alternatives with you.

EDIT: I suggest this because to me, your character's wealth allotment is a mechanic. It might seem odd that you suddenly have a ton of extra GP, but keep in mind that this is a character conversion. The system is different from 3.5. So it's okay that you "suddenly" have more GP, because that's what the conversion dictates. There's no NEED to roleplay or justify the sudden jump in GP other than the fact that you're playing a converted character. If you absolutely WANT to just earn the extra GP from adventuring because you don't want to feel like you're cheating, that's fine - but I would warn you that at least in starting out, you would be playing an under-geared Pathfinder character, since he hasn't been completely converted properly... my 2 cents from a fellow DM. :)

Thanks, Sinatar. Thinking over your response, this approach would probably help clean up some of the conversion process for me. Quite honestly, I'm a different player now than I was when I last played these PCs, and I'd make some decisions differently now based on my conception of them. Plus, who wouldn't enjoy spending that much cash on their characters!

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:

It would depend on a lot of things.

1. I would convert all of your gear towards Pathfinder equivalents. That conversion alone may very well change the equation right off the bat. After that it would be a case by case basis on what you had and where in level are you.

2. Wealth by level target is just a loose guideline, if what you have in my judgement at the end of step 1, makes you viable, then I don't see a reason for change.

I appreciate your response, LazarX. I did find some items that needed to be changed from their 3.5 status, but I don't know if it really affected the wealth level all that much. In most cases it was a replacement of one item ability with another.

Good point about viability. In 3.5 my PCs were still underpowered in terms of wealth, but not by as much as PF. And they're still alive and kickin', so it couldn't have been that much of a problem. Must have been my superior skills and talent as a player ...


I dunno ... a 62,000 gp blessed book chock full of wizard spells / alchemical formulae, maybe with those funky "bookmark" magic items tossed in, would be a godsend. ;)

Silver Crusade

@Erik Freund - There's definitely a story with these PCs. I'm an obsessive note-taker, so I've got enough info on each of their adventures to figure out some creative reason why they suddenly have so much cool stuff. Not only were they chasing some giants (and their loot!), but their party was also owed a BIG favor by a wizard they freed from prison.

@Selgard - Yep, parity with the rest of my PCs' future adventuring party is a high priority.

@mplindustries - Not unhelpful at all! I don't think I'd ask to use these PCs in your campaign, given your house rules, but you highlight my need to be willing to cooperate with my GM on the conversion, which is helpful in restraining my enthusiasm and attachment to certain "wish list" items.

@Torger - Whoever my GM ends up being, I hope he/she is as fair-minded as you! I've experienced the "it'll work itself out" effect before, so I wouldn't be too worried, except that my PCs would survive long enough to be able to say: "Hey, I need more stuff!"

@Mudfoot - I'm not familiar with the term "kit" as you're using it, however, I'm going to try to post the relevant stats for my PCs in the very near future. My next step in the conversion process was going to be drawing up a "wish list", and I'll definitely want some messageboard input on that!

@Turin - I don't think the blessed book itself would be all that useful to my PCs, since neither of them are spellbook-requiring casters. However, such an item in their possession could certainly make for an interesting side adventure in which my PCs used the book as a bargaining tool to influence a powerful / wealthy NPC who gives them the loot that winds up bringing their WBL up to par.

Thanks, everyone, for the input so far - this has all been very helpful! I'll see about posting my PCs' stats soon, if that would help clarify things. At the very least, it'll give us something fun to chew on!


Revix Belstrann II wrote:

@Torger - Whoever my GM ends up being, I hope he/she is as fair-minded as you! I've experienced the "it'll work itself out" effect before, so I wouldn't be too worried, except that my PCs would survive long enough to be able to say: "Hey, I need more stuff!"

Your characters are at 55% and 68% of WBL. Now that's low for sure but as long as they've got their class basics covered I wouldn't be too concerned. At that level of cash character will be a little behind but not by enough to make them useless.

After all you only have to survive till the first big loot pile and there's a good chance that the natural leveling effect will start right there.

I would definitely point it out to the GM though. Something to the tune of "hey this is the character I want to play but just a heads up he's a little behind WBL."

Any GM worth his dice will adjust stuff behind the screen to make it work.

- Torger


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I never pay attention to the wealth level tables. They're too arbitrary for me.


Revix Belstrann II wrote:
@Mudfoot - I'm not familiar with the term "kit" as you're using it

Kit = equipment.

Sczarni

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

In general to start in a campaign I would let you bring your character up to par with the other characters.

I wouldn't have any real problem with just giving you the extra gold and asking you to run your purchase requests by me. If I saw anything goofy, I'd probably suggest something else. In general though I'd let you purchase what you wanted.

For role playing purposes I'd probably have some rich patron reward you for your past bravery and throw you a lavish party.

Looking at it from a PC's perspective, if my GM gave me 62,000 gp and told me to buy something with it, I'd buy a golem. I'm not sure exactly what kind, and I'm not sure I care, but since 3.0 I've wanted to build/own my own golem. Trouble is, I've never had a DM who was okay with me having one. Usually, that doesn't really matter because in a normal campaign, no PC will ever have that much cash in hand-- they'll need to spend it on weapons or armor upgrades, or resurrection services, or whatnot.

If you hand a PC that kind of money, you have to account for the psychological effect of him seeing the shiny new toy in the window, having the money to buy it, only to be told that he's not allowed to buy it, try again. No matter how reasonable your reasons for not wanting him to buy it, he's going to be disapppointed. Give him 62,000 gp worth of items, however, and that's completely different. Then he's not thinking about what he could buy, he's thinking about all that cool stuff he just got.

Plus, then you get to do your best Q impression and let him pretend he's James Bond getting briefed for his mission. ;)

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