Phantasmal Killer and Will disbelief


Rules Questions


Quote:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief)

Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

A wizard with arcane sight on himself is attacked by a rival wizard with a phantasmal killer (Will disbelief). The wizard automatically knows an illusion is coming to life, and even without arcane sight, he could identify the spell being cast with a Spellcraft check.

1) By having arcane sight on, is he enabled to automatically disbelive the spell?
2) By Spellcraft check, is he enabled to automatically disbelive the spell?
3) Regardless of RAW, would you allow such a "nerf" on an already pretty limited spell? How would you work it if it happened to you as a DM?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Difficult question. By RAW it would seem that identifying the spell in any way would let you automatically succeed on the will saving throw--you do have proof it's not real, after all.

I personally would houserule that it gives a +4 on the save, like when it's been communicated to the person that it's not real. Otherwise you could almost never cast any illusion spell with a disbelief save on another mage. But then, a smart mage targets those who wouldn't be able to see through it.

Liberty's Edge

Illusion spells still work if cast so that the opposing wizard has no way to sense them being cast, so I have no issue with saying, "It's an illusion", and the PC (or NPC) that makes the spellcraft roll automatically saves. I don't think the shadow spells work that way, though.


I would probably still require the Will check regardless, because of the closing text of the phantasmal killer spell:

Phantasmal Killer wrote:
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and possesses telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.

You know that it is an illusion because you created it; the target just usurped control of it from you. Nonetheless, it indicates that you would have to make the saving throws yourself; if knowledge that it was an illusion was sufficient to count as automatic success on the saves, then this line wouldn't be necessary.

Liberty's Edge

Xaratherus wrote:

I would probably still require the Will check regardless, because of the closing text of the phantasmal killer spell:

Phantasmal Killer wrote:
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and possesses telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
You know that it is an illusion because you created it; the target just usurped control of it from you. Nonetheless, it indicates that you would have to make the saving throws yourself; if knowledge that it was an illusion was sufficient to count as automatic success on the saves, then this line wouldn't be necessary.

Hmmm...good point. I didn't re-read the spell. That text hardly makes sense to me, but it is what it is. Officially, not negated.


Xaratherus wrote:

I would probably still require the Will check regardless, because of the closing text of the phantasmal killer spell:

Phantasmal Killer wrote:
If the subject of a phantasmal killer attack succeeds in disbelieving and possesses telepathy or is wearing a helm of telepathy, the beast can be turned upon you. You must then disbelieve it or become subject to its deadly fear attack.
You know that it is an illusion because you created it; the target just usurped control of it from you. Nonetheless, it indicates that you would have to make the saving throws yourself; if knowledge that it was an illusion was sufficient to count as automatic success on the saves, then this line wouldn't be necessary.

This is my take on it too. The Phantasm can be known to be non-real but is still deadly.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Phantasmal Killer and Will disbelief All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.