Catch Off-Guard and Polearms in PFS


Rules Questions

Silver Crusade

I know, "Rule X in PFS" threads are something of a hotly debated topic at the moment... but I have tried to research this in the Rules Questions sub-forum and found only a lot of debate both there and when I ask people about this off the forums. The sheer variance in answers I got made it clear; I should ask before spending a Feat this way in PFS play.

With that said, here is my inquiry:

Can you use the Catch Off-Guard feat to 'staff fight' with the shaft section of a polearm (broadly, a Reach weapon of a generally spear-like design featuring a metal striking head, held by a long wooden grip)? If yes, can you do this to fight an Adjacent foe that has stepped past the polearm's normal 10 foot reach? Could you similarly use this Improvised Weapon to attack with (almost certainly reduced, perhaps 1d4 or 1d6) bludgeoning damage at Reach as well as on adjacent targets?

Obviously that sounds powerful for a feat, but just wearing a Cestus or some sort of Gauntlet yields similar results insofar as fighting enemies that moved adjacent by going past your Reach is concerned.

I'm not asking whether you can two-weapon-fight in this manner, and am definitely aware the shaft/staff would not have the metal striking head's enchantment bonuses; it would be an unenchanted (albeit perhaps Masterwork where relevant) stick with a resulting lower damage die. That's fine; it's an Improvised Weapon.

The short summary is I'm trying to find a PFS legal way to 'staff fight' with the shaft end of a polearm against adjacent foes. There are mentions of the Polearm Master shortening their grip to achieve a similar benefit, but they're still using the metal striking head to attack with in that case; I am looking at using the wooden end instead. Does my reading of Catch Off-Guard allow this? If not, what other PFS legal material would? I'm going more for flavor than power, so a reduction in damage for doing this stunt is both expected and acceptable.

Sczarni

You really would have better luck posting this in the Rules Forum.

That being said, if you were at my table, I'd rule that you're not using an "improvised weapon", you're just failing at using the polearm properly.

How do you rationalize using a reach weapon's handle to strike adjacent foes? Does the polearm magically shrink?

Liberty's Edge

In PFS, it is best to assume that a GM is going to rule against you when you see something that could have table variance.

That way you can mitigate it by taking something else.

That being said...

@Nefreet: I've seen plenty of Hollywood movies where spear wielders and polearm wielders use the hafts to "but-stroke" the enemy, so to speak. You take a stout piece of 1" to 2" round piece of wood and shove it up sharply under someone's chin, its going to hurt.

Catch Off Guard lets you use non-weapon items as weapons. Or rather you are proficient with improvised weapons, and able to use them without taking the improvised weapon penalty.

However, in this case, I would not allow you to use the feat to declare an actual weapon an improvised weapon for the sake of using the weapon in a way it is not intended just so you can get AoO's at both 5' and 10'.

I might let you use the feat to use the weapon at 5', but doing so would cause you to forsake its reach.

You choose, do you want it to threaten 5' or 10'. The feat will not get you both.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

If I'm reading it correctly, the Dragoon archetype for Fighter from UC does what you're looking for as well.

UC, pages 46, 47 wrote:

Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate

attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or
with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets.
Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and
magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance,
except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to
edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.

I imagine some people will have different interpretations on how strict the "alternate" in there is.

Silver Crusade

Nefreet: I could dig up videos showing effective staff-fighting with the shaft end of a polearm, but something tells me Youtube is not considered a valid source in adjudicating rules disputes. Likewise, carrying a broom with me to PFS games to demonstrate the concept firsthand is probably out of the question. Suffice to say, Bbauzh is more on the right track.

Bbauzh: Thank you. That's probably a sane way of handling it; player declares during each turn what reach category they're using or something to similar effect would seem reasonable to me as a player and I'd nod at that kind of restriction.

Harley: You're right, it does. That's very interesting. Wish I could make it work with a Lore Warden, but that may be something I just have to live with. Thank you for pointing this out!

Grand Lodge

How is this better than Armor Spikes?

I am not really seeing the need.

Even if you were allowed to use the end of the Polearm as a club, it would not get any enchantment bonuses, and would not get any bonuses from feats.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:


Even if you were allowed to use the end of the Polearm as a club, it would not get any enchantment bonuses, and would not get any bonuses from feats.

Read the rest of the text, BBT.

Quote:

Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate

attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or
with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets.
Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and
magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance,
except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to
edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.


There is also a fighter ability that allows you to use the polearm weapons as non-reach weapons with a -4 penalty so you cant do it otherwise.

Polearm Master Archetype wrote:


Pole Fighting (Ex): At 2nd level, as an immediate action, a polearm master can shorten the grip on his spear or polearm with reach and use it against adjacent targets. This action results in a –4 penalty on attack rolls with that weapon until he spends another immediate action to return to the normal grip. The penalty is reduced by –1 for every four levels beyond 2nd. This ability replaces bravery.

Grand Lodge

My point was, that unless you are getting an ability from somewhere, just grab some Armor Spikes, and be done with it.

Silver Crusade

Wraithstrike: Well... that does work, though it uses the normal metal striking head instead of the staff. I was going for a very specific aesthetic thing over game mechanic usefulness here.

Blackbloodtroll: Nah, this was just a flavor thing I was pursuing. On a Fighter, I'm certainly willing to spend 1 feat to do a flavor move like staff-fighting with the polearm's other end. I agree it's inefficient.

In general: From the sounds of it, I would have to gut my character concepts to go Dragoon or Polearm Master instead of the archetypes I'm already using. That's a no-go. I'll just keep using a Cestus as the backup weapon and 'flavor it' as staff bashes in verbal descriptions but note to the GM "treat it as a Cestus attack in case it matters for the rules, because it technically is that."

Fairly simple solution. Spends a few GP instead of a Feat, accomplishes basically what I was after. Isn't wholly supported by game mechanics, but I doubt anyone will seriously balk given the trivial nature of it.

Thank you again for your thoughts, everyone! I do appreciate it, and it looks like I have my answer: "This won't work quite as you expected. Instead find a simpler equipment-based solution and reflavor as needed."


In real life polearmsman and LongSpearmen tended to carry a backupweapon such as a sword, mace, battleaxe, Warhammer, etc.

Hold your polarm in your off hand and use a short sword or dagger for close in work, armor spikes can work also, but shord blades like a dagger or shord sword have more out of combat utility uses also.

Even the mightyest of knights carried a dagger for emergencies.

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