Gunslinger's Deadshot deed and Rapid Shot


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

I've been trying to decide if the Deadshot deed stacks with Rapid Shot. It certainly isn't clear, but, I think I have an answer

PRD wrote:

Dead Shot (Ex): At 7th level, as a full-round action, the gunslinger can take careful aim and pool all of her attack potential into a single, deadly shot. When she does this, she shoots the firearm at a single target, but makes as many attack rolls as she can, based on her base attack bonus. She makes the attack rolls in order from highest bonus to lowest, as if she were making a full attack.

PRD wrote:

Rapid Shot (Combat)

You can make an additional ranged attack.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this round. All of your attack rolls take a –2 penalty when using Rapid Shot.

Now the question comes out about what type of action Dead Shot uses. It says, "as a full-round action". This is similar to Cleave's verbiage of "As a standard action, you can make a single attack...". This is why Cleave does not stack with Vital Strike, which says, "When you use the attack action, ..."

So, I would say that Dead Shot is not a full-attack action, and as such, does not trigger the condition of Rapid Shot, and thus they cannot stack.

Additionally, I do not think that Dead Shot will stack with Haste, either...

prd wrote:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.

So, the rules aside, I cannot really see how this deed is of any use, save that it does not require a feat (though it requires the expenditure of grit, and a full-round action). Rapid Shot is better than it is for landing multiple shots (though they do not stack for DR, and don't have the reduced chance for misfire), and Vital Strike is mostly better for a single shot (doubled damage dice, but not doubled adders).

Thoughts? Opinions?


One other use of it is to maximize your use of a limited ammunition of a specific material, say if you only have 3 adamantine bullets and your target has DR 20/Adamantine... You would probably be better off doing 3 Dead Shots over the course of 3 rounds than doing one full attack or some such.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Jayne Munny wrote:

Now the question comes out about what type of action Dead Shot uses. It says, "as a full-round action". This is similar to Cleave's verbiage of "As a standard action, you can make a single attack...". This is why Cleave does not stack with Vital Strike, which says, "When you use the attack action, ..."

So, I would say that Dead Shot is not a full-attack action, and as such, does not trigger the condition of Rapid Shot, and thus they cannot stack.

Additionally, I do not think that Dead Shot will stack with Haste, either...

prd wrote:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.
Thoughts? Opinions?
Well first there's this
PRD wrote:

Attack

Making an attack is a standard action.

Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.

So, Vital Strike and Cleave should work. The verbiage in VS says "When you use the attack action", that means (to me) that it can be used with either a Full Attack Action or a single (Standard) Attack Action.

As for Haste and Dead Shot, the ability says it is a Full Round Action, not a Full Attack Action as required by Haste, so no, it doesn't stack... IMO

EDIT Although after re-reading that line about "as if she were making a Full Attack"... it seems that perhaps it should stack with Haste, except Haste gives you one additional (single) Attack not an additional Full Round Action (which is what Dead Shot is).


Well it says as a full round action, which is quite different from a full attack action. So you'd be correct in that they are unable to be combined RAW.

As for the deed, it is the better choice for DR when you don't have the type of material/attack to bypass it, as it doesn't cost you anything. Yeah, Vital Strike might be slightly better on some occasions BUT it requires multiple feat expenditures (limited resource) to 'keep up' with the deed. Where as Grit is a renewable resource and with touch attacks the deed might 'pay' for itself with the damage done.


closetgamer wrote:
Jayne Munny wrote:

Now the question comes out about what type of action Dead Shot uses. It says, "as a full-round action". This is similar to Cleave's verbiage of "As a standard action, you can make a single attack...". This is why Cleave does not stack with Vital Strike, which says, "When you use the attack action, ..."

So, I would say that Dead Shot is not a full-attack action, and as such, does not trigger the condition of Rapid Shot, and thus they cannot stack.

Additionally, I do not think that Dead Shot will stack with Haste, either...

prd wrote:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon.
Thoughts? Opinions?
Well first there's this
PRD wrote:

Attack

Making an attack is a standard action.

Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action (see Full-Round Actions) in order to get more than one attack.

So, Vital Strike and Cleave should work. The verbiage in VS says "When you use the attack action", that means (to me) that it can be used with either a Full Attack Action or a single (Standard) Attack Action.

As for Haste and Dead Shot, the ability says it is a Full Round Action, not a Full Attack Action as required by Haste, so no, it doesn't stack... IMO

EDIT Although after re-reading that line about "as if she were making a Full Attack" I would say that would be a GM call, just because the verbiage is unclear ("as if")... it seems that perhaps it should stack with Haste, except Haste gives you one additional (single) Attack not an additional Full Round Action (which is what Dead Shot is).

Read the FAQs, attack action was clarified to be a 'specific type of standard action.' Basically 'attack action' is not the same as 'when you make an attack' mechanically.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
Read the FAQs, attack action was clarified to be a 'specific type of standard action.' Basically 'attack action' is not the same as 'when you make an attack' mechanically.

Not sure I'm getting the point here... but thanks for the heads up. I can't seem to find anything concerning standard actions, can you give me a link?


Official FAQ wrote:

Vital Strike: Can I use this with Spring Attack, or on a charge?

No. Vital Strike can only be used as part of an attack action, which is a specific kind of standard action. Spring Attack is a special kind of full-round action that includes the ability to make one melee attack, not one attack action. Charging uses similar language and can also not be used in combination with Vital Strike.

—Jason Bulmahn, 11/30/12

So only things that are explicitly called out as the 'Attack' action can stack together (ie. Overhand Chop and Vital Strike). You can't VS on a Use Special Ability action nor on the Full-Attack action as those are completely different actions; nor can you VS on an AoO or any such "non-action attack". Only Attack, the standard action, can benefit from VS.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Kazaan wrote:
So only things that are explicitly called out as the 'Attack' action can stack together (ie. Overhand Chop and Vital Strike). You can't VS on a Use Special Ability action nor on the Full-Attack action as those are completely different actions; nor can you VS on an AoO or any such "non-action attack". Only Attack, the standard action, can benefit from VS.

Then what about Cleave?

Cleave wrote:
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach.

So, if an entry like the one above, doesn't explicitly describe requiring the "attack action" then it is not an attack action?


Cleave is a Use Feat action. You'll find that listed on page 189 of the CRB.


closetgamer wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
So only things that are explicitly called out as the 'Attack' action can stack together (ie. Overhand Chop and Vital Strike). You can't VS on a Use Special Ability action nor on the Full-Attack action as those are completely different actions; nor can you VS on an AoO or any such "non-action attack". Only Attack, the standard action, can benefit from VS.

Then what about Cleave?

Cleave wrote:
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach.

So, if an entry like the one above, doesn't explicitly describe requiring the "attack action" then it is not an attack action?

If you use a standard action to make an attack action (with VS for example), you cannot use a standard action to cleave; That would be 2 standard actions in one round.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Ansel Krulwich wrote:
Cleave is a Use Feat action. You'll find that listed on page 189 of the CRB.

Thanks Ansel, that is where my problem was.

Horizon Hunters

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Skylancer4 wrote:
If you use a standard action to make an attack action (with VS for example), you cannot use a standard action to cleave; That would be 2 standard actions in one round.

Yeah, but it just seemed that maybe (since I was confused about the Use Feat action) Cleave could stack with Vital Strike. I see it now, and concede the point.

Thanks for the clarification guys!

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Gunslinger's Deadshot deed and Rapid Shot All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.