Overrun and Charge (Part II)

[Stynkk]

This is a restatement of my original post concerning Overrun and Charge that was marked as "Answered in FAQ" seemingly in err, so here goes... (hopefully it is presented in the proper format to be considered FAQqable):

Core Rules Question: If a player chooses to Charge and perform an Overrun attempt during the charge, is the Overrun meant to replace the attack granted at the end of the charge (as with Bull Rush)? Or is an Overrun attempt allowed in addition to the charge attack? The rules are unclear on this.

[Stynkk]

Follow-up #1: How can you overrun on a charge, since you have to end your charge at the first legal space you can attack from - and you cannot continue your movement through an enemy? Don't you have to enter the enemy's space to overrun them?

Imagine the headache for a character with a Reach weapon (or even natural reach) trying to overrun.

[Stynkk]

Follow-up #2: If you perform an Overrun during a Charge can you legally continue your movement through an enemy?

[Reshar]

I think there is a feat called Charge Through that allows you to do exactly that. I don't think the Paizo staff would create a feat for something you can do without it... and doesn't give bonus/negates AoOs or something...

Just my 2cp

[Stynkk]

Reshar wrote:

I think there is a feat called Charge Through that allows you to do exactly that. I don't think the Paizo staff would create a feat for something you can do without it... and doesn't give bonus/negates AoOs or something...

Just my 2cp

Hey there! Yeah, the original thread is here: Overrun & Charge and you can read my original response to this very question.

Essentially, the way things are written you can overrun 2 targets with Charge Through and attack the last while without it you would only get to overrun the first (and attack it).

Charge Through seems (to me) as a way to get through meat shields to attack a further target, which isn't the issue I'm discussing.

[Howie23]

And here is the illustration of why WotC errata'd overrun to prohibit use during a charge.

[Reshar]

Stynkk wrote:

Reshar wrote:

I think there is a feat called Charge Through that allows you to do exactly that. I don't think the Paizo staff would create a feat for something you can do without it... and doesn't give bonus/negates AoOs or something...

Just my 2cp

Hey there! Yeah, the original thread is here: Overrun & Charge and you can read my original response to this very question.

Essentially, the way things are written you can overrun 2 targets with Charge Through and attack the last while without it you would only get to overrun the first (and attack it).

Charge Through seems (to me) as a way to get through meat shields to attack a further target, which isn't the issue I'm discussing.

Reading the post you marked on the prior thread, I kinda get your point. But the Charge Through text now prompts with a new question to me:

Since making the Overrun in the charge is a 'free action', how many foes can you overrun in the same charge?

Take into account that, as far as I know, free actions are nearly limitless

PRD wrote:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.

and haven't read any errata on that.

[Stynkk]

Reshar wrote:

Since making the Overrun in the charge is a 'free action', how many foes can you overrun in the same charge?

Take into account that, as far as I know, free actions are nearly limitless.

This is a little off-topic but I will take a crack at it. Yes, it is a free action, true, and normally there is a lot you can perform, but unfortunately here the rules text for Charge Through is against you.

Benefit: When making a charge, you can attempt to overrun one creature in the path of the charge as a free action. If you successfully overrun that creature, you can complete the charge. If the overrun is unsuccessful, the charge ends in the space directly in front of that creature.

So, even though it is a free action the feat limits us to just one creature in the path of the charge using the charge through feat (and possibly the target of your charge). However, your question does remind me of the Overbearing Onslaught (Barbarian Rage Power) from the APG.

Overbearing Onslaught (Ex): While raging, the barbarian may overrun more than one target per round, with a –2 penalty on her CMB for each overrun check after the first. A barbarian must have the overbearing advance rage power to select this rage power. A barbarian must be at least 6th level to select this rage power.

How this would interact with a standard Charge + Overrun seems quite interesting. Especially,if you could move through enemies with overrun and charge.

[Stynkk]

For anyone that finds this topic FAQ worthy, I would suggest that you flag the original post with a FAQ flag.

[Velkyn]

More thoughts on Overrun

I'm having difficulty understanding the RAW for Overrun. Looking at past threads, it seems there is general consensus that Overrun+Charge is not clearly defined, nor is there much clarity with respect to AoOs from movement surrounding the Overrun itself.

This is what I think is supposed to happen:

Overrun is effectively a full-round action, where a combat maneuver attack may be taken at any point during your movement. During an Overrun attack, you may move up to your Movement Speed with no benefits or penalties. Alternatively, you may Charge, assuming all pre-reqs are met, allowing you to move up to 2x your Movement Speed, and receive +2 ATK, -2 AC.
Since Overrun is a full-round action, it serves as a single action for provoking AoOs. An enemy can only take a single AoO against someone using Overrun, regardless of how many squares they move through that would provoke. This also includes the AoO from the combat maneuver itself.
If you have Improved Overrun, you do not provoke an AoO against the target. Moving through threatened squares of other enemies provokes as normal.
If you have Improved Overrun, the target cannot step aside.
So a character/monster with Improved Overrun could OverCharge (assuming Charge pre-reqs are met) a target from up to (Move*2) – 5’ (you cannot stand in an occupied square), and continue moving in a straight line. Alternatively, that character/monster could OverMove a target from up to (Move – 5’) away, and move in any direction afterwards. In either case, the character/monster provokes no AoOs from the target of the Overrun.

Thoughts?