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Updated Rogues Guide


Advice


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Since Rogue Eidolon's guide is the only one out there for the rogue and it hasn't been updated since the CRB came out, I decided to do an update.

I included the original guide (because why reinvent the wheel), but added new sections for new rules from the APG, ARC, UC, and UM. I plan on adding more on the equipment section, but I haven't quite gotten there yet. Any comments are welcome, but please try to keep them constructive.

Guide is HERE


bump


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Why not combine the sections into one guide, using a color/font for your writing and one for RE's?

Especially when I got to the Rogue Talents discussion, it became hard to give everything a good look by looking at RE's talent list, then opening up your expanded list in a seperate window, THEN having to open up yet another item to get to the ninja tricks in your Ninja Guide.

Also, it'd be great if the non-ki ninja tricks were marked in some way, to separate them for the rogues who are just looking to grab one, rather than also take ki pool.

EDIT: And nice work, man!


congratulation for working in one of the most hardest classes to optimize. I have not read it in detail but if you want to update it correctly you should update all the options too. For example halflings are not slower any longer due to the advanced race guide. and half-orcs are solid damage dealers thanks to the toothy racial trait that allow an extra attack ergo an extra sneak attack in the right circumstances)

EDIT: I see you did include that part.


Lamontius wrote:

Why not combine the sections into one guide, using a color/font for your writing and one for RE's?

Especially when I got to the Rogue Talents discussion, it became hard to give everything a good look by looking at RE's talent list, then opening up your expanded list in a seperate window, THEN having to open up yet another item to get to the ninja tricks in your Ninja Guide.

Also, it'd be great if the non-ki ninja tricks were marked in some way, to separate them for the rogues who are just looking to grab one, rather than also take ki pool.

EDIT: And nice work, man!

The main reason I decided to have the new sections in sub-pages is because I wanted to try and maintain the integrity of the original guide as much as possible. Additionally, putting everything on one page can start to get very long and more difficult to find specific sections (for example see my massive 1 page ninja guide).


Out of curiosity, how optimal is a Dex-based brute rogue, using a weapon like a Spiked Chain or an Elven Curved Blade?


Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, how optimal is a Dex-based brute rogue, using a weapon like a Spiked Chain or an Elven Curved Blade?

I wouldn't recommend it unless your GM allows agile weapons.

Also--great job on the update jb!


Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, how optimal is a Dex-based brute rogue, using a weapon like a Spiked Chain or an Elven Curved Blade?

I am not the Op but I would say is totally viable. Right now i can see two builds that could work.

For an elven blade you need to be an elf or a half-elf with the ancestral arm alternate racial trait.

The important part is that you need at least str 13 so you can take power attack (and furious focus or course). I recommend at least str 14 for this kind of build.

I have this old build for example

Spoiler:

Half-Elf scout/thug 10

Initial stats
str 14, dex 18, con 14, Int 10, wis 12, cha 8

Stats
str 14, dex 20 (24), con 14, Int 10, wis 12, cha 8

Traits
+1 will save , -1 armor check penalty

Gear:
+3 Silversheen Elven curved blade
+2 mithral breast plate
Craked plae grism Ioun stone (attack)
masterwork tool (intimidate)
+1 ring of protection
+1 Amulet of natural armor
Dusty rose Ioun stoune + wayfinder

Feats and talents:
1. Power attack, Exotic weapon proficiency (elven blade)
2. Finesse rogue
3. Furious focus
4. offensive defense
5. Skill focus (intimidate)
6. Cornugon smash
7. Lunge
8. Weapon Training (Elven blade)
9. Dodge
10. Slow reaction

AC: 29 (10 +8 armor, +7 dex, +1 def, +1 Nat, +1 insight, +1 dodge)

Attacks:
+3 elven blade: +19/+12 (1d10+12 18-20/x2)

TActis: move and atack and deliver sneak damage via skrimisher. Sacrifice 1d6 of sneak attack damage to impose the sickened condition on the target. As the rogue is using power attack he could also impose the shaken condition. With the offensive defense he also gains +4 AC against that particular foe.

Attacks:
+3 elven blade: +19/+12 (1d10+4d6 +12 18-20/x2)

plus the rogue´s efective AC against that monster rise to 37.

PS: Note that With some luck in the roll the rogue could frihgten the target.

PS 2: Even if the target is not frightened he gains -4 to all its saving throws. if you have a saver-or-die spellcaster in your group he will thank you for that.


Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, how optimal is a Dex-based brute rogue, using a weapon like a Spiked Chain or an Elven Curved Blade?

I could see it being done. I have actually considered that myself, if only because Furious Focus a) makes Power Attack usable for 3/4 BAB classes and b) requires a THW. It also opens up Cleave and Surprise Follow Through as viable options. The only drawback is that you lose the bonus 1-1/2 Str damage. Be careful that your Str isn't completely dumped since it is needed as a pre-req for many of the more "Brutish" feats.

I would say that a Finesse-Brute should have a 20 point buy that looks something like this(assuming +2 in Dex):
Str 13, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 8.


Rogue Eidolon wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, how optimal is a Dex-based brute rogue, using a weapon like a Spiked Chain or an Elven Curved Blade?

I wouldn't recommend it unless your GM allows agile weapons.

Also--great job on the update jb!

Thank you.


j b 200 wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

Why not combine the sections into one guide, using a color/font for your writing and one for RE's?

Especially when I got to the Rogue Talents discussion, it became hard to give everything a good look by looking at RE's talent list, then opening up your expanded list in a seperate window, THEN having to open up yet another item to get to the ninja tricks in your Ninja Guide.

Also, it'd be great if the non-ki ninja tricks were marked in some way, to separate them for the rogues who are just looking to grab one, rather than also take ki pool.

EDIT: And nice work, man!

The main reason I decided to have the new sections in sub-pages is because I wanted to try and maintain the integrity of the original guide as much as possible. Additionally, putting everything on one page can start to get very long and more difficult to find specific sections (for example see my massive 1 page ninja guide).

Yeah, I get you on that, but even just on that particular section of talents/tricks it got a little awkward having to compare and contrast through three different open windows/documents.

At the least, hitting up a mark on the ki/non-ki tricks would be great, for rogues, so they can scan the list at a glance and decide whether or not ki-pool is something they want.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Lamontius wrote:
j b 200 wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

Why not combine the sections into one guide, using a color/font for your writing and one for RE's?

Especially when I got to the Rogue Talents discussion, it became hard to give everything a good look by looking at RE's talent list, then opening up your expanded list in a seperate window, THEN having to open up yet another item to get to the ninja tricks in your Ninja Guide.

Also, it'd be great if the non-ki ninja tricks were marked in some way, to separate them for the rogues who are just looking to grab one, rather than also take ki pool.

EDIT: And nice work, man!

The main reason I decided to have the new sections in sub-pages is because I wanted to try and maintain the integrity of the original guide as much as possible. Additionally, putting everything on one page can start to get very long and more difficult to find specific sections (for example see my massive 1 page ninja guide).

Yeah, I get you on that, but even just on that particular section of talents/tricks it got a little awkward having to compare and contrast through three different open windows/documents.

At the least, hitting up a mark on the ki/non-ki tricks would be great, for rogues, so they can scan the list at a glance and decide whether or not ki-pool is something they want.

Added a list of the non-ki tricks so that they are easier to find.


j b 200 wrote:
Lamontius wrote:
j b 200 wrote:
Lamontius wrote:

Why not combine the sections into one guide, using a color/font for your writing and one for RE's?

Especially when I got to the Rogue Talents discussion, it became hard to give everything a good look by looking at RE's talent list, then opening up your expanded list in a seperate window, THEN having to open up yet another item to get to the ninja tricks in your Ninja Guide.

Also, it'd be great if the non-ki ninja tricks were marked in some way, to separate them for the rogues who are just looking to grab one, rather than also take ki pool.

EDIT: And nice work, man!

The main reason I decided to have the new sections in sub-pages is because I wanted to try and maintain the integrity of the original guide as much as possible. Additionally, putting everything on one page can start to get very long and more difficult to find specific sections (for example see my massive 1 page ninja guide).

Yeah, I get you on that, but even just on that particular section of talents/tricks it got a little awkward having to compare and contrast through three different open windows/documents.

At the least, hitting up a mark on the ki/non-ki tricks would be great, for rogues, so they can scan the list at a glance and decide whether or not ki-pool is something they want.

Added a list of the non-ki tricks so that they are easier to find.

Hi5!


Concealment is a real pain in the ass for rogues. I suggest adding a way to deal with it.
A wand of Faerie Fire (druid 1) and the Shadow Strike feat (APG) deserve a word or two, IMHO.

The "ghost touch" weapon ability also helps against incorporeal creatures to deliver sneak attacks. Situational but worth to be mentioned.

The Exchange

Great Job
Thank you!!
Uh....is there a section on variants/prestige classes/multiclassing???
I'm looking at Investigator (and not liking it much...)

"Users are like children, they always want something. They're nice to have but they always want something" old computer programmer adage


Saluzi wrote:

Great Job

Thank you!!
Uh....is there a section on variants/prestige classes/multiclassing???
I'm looking at Investigator (and not liking it much...)

"Users are like children, they always want something. They're nice to have but they always want something" old computer programmer adage

Not yet, but it's definitely on my radar. I need to finish up the equipment section first.


Hey JB, good job. With all the recent Rogue-hate on the boards, the update was needed.

I'm surprised that you haven't rated the Rogue Talent - Ki Pool from UC. It allows you take Ki-fueled ninja tricks, like Vanish!

cheers


Jubal Breakbottle wrote:

Hey JB, good job. With all the recent Rogue-hate on the boards, the update was needed.

I'm surprised that you haven't rated the Rogue Talent - Ki Pool from UC. It allows you take Ki-fueled ninja tricks, like Vanish!

cheers

The main page is the original guide by Rogue Eidolon, the additions are mostly in the subpages, the links are in the text.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A ranged rogue is a difficult prospect, but at least now we have Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot for flanking goodness.


d@ncingNumfar wrote:
A ranged rogue is a difficult prospect, but at least now we have Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot for flanking goodness.

To my knowledge snap shot let you threat squares but do not let you flank. Flank requires a melee weapon.


Nicos wrote:
d@ncingNumfar wrote:
A ranged rogue is a difficult prospect, but at least now we have Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot for flanking goodness.
To my knowledge snap shot let you threat squares but do not let you flank. Flank requires a melee weapon.

Nicos is correct.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Oh, well that is kind of disappointing. Thanks for clarifying though!


Awesome job. Thanks for the hard work!


Thug is widely considered one of the best Rogue archetypes due to it's debuff ability and paired with the Enforcer feat it can be outright broken as any hit that deals at least 3 points on nonlethal damage will send your opponent running if you wish to do so. You give it a red rating. Maybe you should reconsider...


Alex Mack wrote:
Thug is widely considered one of the best Rogue archetypes due to it's debuff ability and paired with the Enforcer feat it can be outright broken as any hit that deals at least 3 points on nonlethal damage will send your opponent running if you wish to do so. You give it a red rating. Maybe you should reconsider...

Maybe red is a little harsh. But no higher than yellow. I agree that the debuffing is pretty nice, but none of it helps you sneak attack. Since pretty much the entire guide is about maximizing your sneak attack opportunities, it still doesn't rise above a yellow.

The Exchange

j b 200 wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
Thug is widely considered one of the best Rogue archetypes due to it's debuff ability and paired with the Enforcer feat it can be outright broken as any hit that deals at least 3 points on nonlethal damage will send your opponent running if you wish to do so. You give it a red rating. Maybe you should reconsider...
Maybe red is a little harsh. But no higher than yellow. I agree that the debuffing is pretty nice, but none of it helps you sneak attack. Since pretty much the entire guide is about maximizing your sneak attack opportunities, it still doesn't rise above a yellow.

Ahhhhh! So if you're using the rogue for something non-sneak attack, look for advice elsewhere? [I sense a wince. I can sympathize. I feel the same way about non-singing Bards - Archeologist]

Silver Crusade

Saluzi wrote:
j b 200 wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
Thug is widely considered one of the best Rogue archetypes due to it's debuff ability and paired with the Enforcer feat it can be outright broken as any hit that deals at least 3 points on nonlethal damage will send your opponent running if you wish to do so. You give it a red rating. Maybe you should reconsider...
Maybe red is a little harsh. But no higher than yellow. I agree that the debuffing is pretty nice, but none of it helps you sneak attack. Since pretty much the entire guide is about maximizing your sneak attack opportunities, it still doesn't rise above a yellow.
Ahhhhh! So if you're using the rogue for something non-sneak attack, look for advice elsewhere? [I sense a wince. I can sympathize. I feel the same way about non-singing Bards - Archeologist]

So will you both hate me for doing a rogue with a one level dip in Dawnflower Dervish bard and going Halfling Opportunist at level 6? :)

I do sneak attack in melee with him when I can, but he's got a little firepower without it, from Dervish Dance, Battle Dance, and a high dex. But I'm pretty much ignoring rogue talents, using most of them to get more combat feats so I'll be ready for Halfling Opportunist.

I will need to look through this guide at some point, though. I'm making a ninja now, too.


Saluzi wrote:
j b 200 wrote:
Alex Mack wrote:
Thug is widely considered one of the best Rogue archetypes due to it's debuff ability and paired with the Enforcer feat it can be outright broken as any hit that deals at least 3 points on nonlethal damage will send your opponent running if you wish to do so. You give it a red rating. Maybe you should reconsider...
Maybe red is a little harsh. But no higher than yellow. I agree that the debuffing is pretty nice, but none of it helps you sneak attack. Since pretty much the entire guide is about maximizing your sneak attack opportunities, it still doesn't rise above a yellow.
Ahhhhh! So if you're using the rogue for something non-sneak attack, look for advice elsewhere? [I sense a wince. I can sympathize. I feel the same way about non-singing Bards - Archeologist]

I actually really like the Archeologist (which is as much a non-SA Rogue as non-singing Bard). Really the only reason to play a rogue over a fighter or ranger or bard is sneak attack. It's also an optimization guide, and the optimal Rogue will try to be sneak attacking as much as possible to maximize their Damage output. Nothing here should discourage you from playing a flavorful character that is a dynamic and interesting person in their own right.

The Exchange

How about a ranged rogue takes a dip into Bard/sorcerer/wizard, buys a wand of Grease, and life is good??


Alex Mack wrote:
Thug is widely considered one of the best Rogue archetypes due to it's debuff ability and paired with the Enforcer feat it can be outright broken as any hit that deals at least 3 points on nonlethal damage will send your opponent running if you wish to do so. You give it a red rating. Maybe you should reconsider...

Frightening on its own isn't great unless you jack up your intimidate to insane heights such that you confidently succeed by 10 or more, but Brutal Beating is quite strong (Sickened is a better condition than Shaken, and having both is just about as devastating as a -4 to all rolls Bestow Curse), and it's certainly true that Thug with Enforcer is ridiculously powerful against things that aren't immune to nonlethal or fear. And given that there's already overpoweredly good options for nonlethal sneak attacks in UC, it can all synergize nicely. It's also a great setup for a friendly caster to save-or-suck (particularly if stacked with an Evil Eye hex and a Quickened Ill Omen).

More and more of these sorts of theme builds have become possible with all the new material, and that's one of the main reasons I've never updated my guides to include everything. There's just so much.

Silver Crusade

Saluzi wrote:
How about a ranged rogue takes a dip into Bard/sorcerer/wizard, buys a wand of Grease, and life is good??

Why does he have to be ranged? My previously mentioned rogue/halfling opportunist with one level dip in Dawnflower Dervish bard has Grease and Expeditious Retreat as his two known level 1 bard spells. He's mostly a melee guy, but occasionally, I'll set up the greased floor to help me get them flat footed if I'm going to have trouble getting a flank.


Added updates for ACG addded


not sure if already mentioned in the guide:

if i remember correctly there's a newer weapon enchantment that makes hunters surprise usable more often (i think only 1/day moreso, but hey), as well as a tertiary effect.

also the heartseeker and menacing enchantments are worth a look, thugs should keep an eye out for the cruel enchant for more fear debuffing potential, and agile is an unfortunate tax for anyone going the dex route (barring things like slashing grace or dervish dance).

- - - - -

for builds, there's also methods to help improve SA's stability: dipping 3 in horizon walker for the dimensional savant line, dipping 3 in shadowdancer for the flank-buddy shadow, the nature soul+animal ally (+boon companion for full advancement) feats for an animal companion flank-buddy (that can take teamwork feats with you!), and so on.

for rogues who wanna be more dex-focused, the swashbuckler rogue archetype lets you snag proficiency in the scimitar for dervish dance (conveniently grabable at level 2 via combat trick as well), and a human with a 1-level dip in the swashbuckler class can get dex-to-damage at level 1 via slashing grace.


Ranged rogue is by far better off simply buying a goz mask and getting a familiar to drop smoke sticks for him, or using a wand with obscuring mist on it. Any other method of obtaining range sneak attack for a rogue has a lot of feats associated with it and rely on dazzling display.

Also, grease doesn't deny anyone their dex.

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