I'm sorry if this questions is answered elsewhere; I couldn't find an answer easily with the search function.
I posit a scenario:
Round 1, my wizard uses a 1-round casting time to cast his Summon Monster (X) spell.
Round 2, my Summon Monster(s) appear and act on the same initiative count as me.
I choose to use my standard action to cast Haste on my Summon Monster(s) during Round 2. According to the text, the Summon Monster(s) are acting simultaneously as me; they (all) choose full-attack actions.
The question is simple:
On Round 2, do the Summon Monster(s) gain the benefit of the Haste spell? Or only Round 3 forward?
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That sounds like a fairly grey area... IMO I would treat it like rolling the same Initiative, whoever has the higher modifier goes first. If yours is better the spell affects them, if theirs is higher it they don't get the extra attack, but would get all the defensive benefits after their turn is over. If there's a tie roll again, highest d20 roll goes first.
--School of Vrock
Was chatting about this with a co-worker, and he made a point that changed my mind on it (my original thought was that no, it would not):
A full-attack action is a type of full-round action, meaning that other than a 5-foot step, it takes up the full length of a 6-second round.
This means that it begins attacking at second 0, and does not stop attacking until second 5.59. Sometime during that 6 seconds, haste triggers on the creature, because the standard action of casting a spell does not take the full 6 seconds.
And because of that I would probably argue that the creature would immediately get the extra attack on the first round following its appearance.
Was chatting about this with a co-worker, and he made a point that changed my mind on it (my original thought was that no, it would not):
A full-attack action is a type of full-round action, meaning that other than a 5-foot step, it takes up the full length of a 6-second round.
This means that it begins attacking at second 0, and does not stop attacking until second 5.59. Sometime during that 6 seconds, haste triggers on the creature, because the standard action of casting a spell does not take the full 6 seconds.
And because of that I would probably argue that the creature would immediately get the extra attack on the first round following its appearance.
I think Combat rounds are designed to be pretty abstract. If you start to dissect them like this then you run into additional issues regarding when an action starts and stops and what kind of action it is.
Is a Standard Action longer than a Move Action? What happens to the "extra time" if you take 2 Move Actions instead of a Move Action and a Standard Action. Does Haste go off on second 3 if you cast it and THEN move, and second 6 if you move and THEN cast? Etc. Etc.
It's abstract for a reason. You don't have to make it granular. Summon Monster says the summoned creature "acts immediately on your turn". I think whether that is before or after your actions should be up to you as the controller of the summoned creature, and is just worded that way to show that it gets its full round of actions on the round it is summoned.
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A full-attack action is a type of full-round action, meaning that other than a 5-foot step, it takes up the full length of a 6-second round.
This means that it begins attacking at second 0, and does not stop attacking until second 5.59. Sometime during that 6 seconds, haste triggers on the creature, because the standard action of casting a spell does not take the full 6 seconds.
A full-round action does not explicitly take a full six seconds. Rather, it consumes all of a character's efforts for the round (with a few exceptions). For example, it is possible in a single round for character A to make a full attack (melee) on character B, for character B to withdraw or run and thereby end adjacent to character C, and for character C to then make a full attack (melee) on character B. These are three sequential full-round actions which all occur in a six second period. Daisy chain in characters D through Z for additional illustration, if needed.
Some full-round actions do take the entire 6 seconds, such as the 1 round casting time of the summon monster spells, but they are exceptions, not the rule.
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You can get some wonky results if the "acts on your turn" is followed too strictly. For example, what happens if the caster then delays or readies an action? Do the summoned creatures act on the caster's original initiative or the new initiative? When does the spell expire given the changed initiative. What if a summoned creature delays or readies? Etc.
The general way I have seen this treated is to treat the summoned creatures as acting prior to the caster in initiative, following the same idea as dealing with two characters who roll the same initiative. If the caster rolled an init of 15, the creatures are on 15+ and the caster is at 15-. It's a bit of a compromise vs. the RAW of the spell, but is easier to manage and otherwise you will find some other place you have to compromise at a later time. Selecting this compromise has the benefit of sticking within the framework of rules mastery.
I recognize that OP may not like this approach, but compromises in the RAW must happen from time to time, and picking and choosing those compromises to one's own advantage has a bad reputation and is best avoided.
Note: if caster can communicate with the summoned creatures, telling them to wait for the haste (delay) is totally reasonable.
I actually had no preconceived answer to the question. I'm also getting the notion that there are no rules to the situation. Sounds like the answer IS: DM's discretion.
You can get some wonky results if the "acts on your turn" is followed too strictly. For example, what happens if the caster then delays or readies an action? Do the summoned creatures act on the caster's original initiative or the new initiative? When does the spell expire given the changed initiative. What if a summoned creature delays or readies? Etc.
The general way I have seen this treated is to treat the summoned creatures as acting prior to the caster in initiative, following the same idea as dealing with two characters who roll the same initiative. If the caster rolled an init of 15, the creatures are on 15+ and the caster is at 15-. It's a bit of a compromise vs. the RAW of the spell, but is easier to manage and otherwise you will find some other place you have to compromise at a later time. Selecting this compromise has the benefit of sticking within the framework of rules mastery.
I recognize that OP may not like this approach, but compromises in the RAW must happen from time to time, and picking and choosing those compromises to one's own advantage has a bad reputation and is best avoided.
Note: if caster can communicate with the summoned creatures, telling them to wait for the haste (delay) is totally reasonable.
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I actually had no preconceived answer to the question. I'm also getting the notion that there are no rules to the situation. Sounds like the answer IS: DM's discretion.
I wasn't thinking preconceived, but rather hoped for. In any case, my apology for unnecessarily making an assumption regarding your motive.
I play a summoner/buffing caster, so this is something that's pretty relevant to me. The way I've handled it is that, if I'm able to communicate with my summoned monster, I can command it to delay until after I cast my buff spell. That's why I generally favor summons that have a language. I haven't had any issues with running my character like that so far.
The way I see it, you wouldn't be able to do this. You didn't have Haste as any sort of readied action for when the summoned creature appears, and the summoned creature has already begun its full attack by the time you manage to get your standard action to cast off.
That's the way I've always run it in my games. So everything would count after that first round, but not for the first round.
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All actions are sequential in pathfinder, with each creature acting in turn.
When the summoned creature acts is undefined, other than on the summoner's initiative. The summoner could choose to act before or after the summoned monsters.
A similar issue arises with mounts; a casters mount would benefit from hast if the spell was cast before the caster chose to move it.
When the summoned creature acts is undefined, other than on the summoner's initiative. The summoner could choose to act before or after the summoned monsters.
Actually, the wording is immediately on the summoner's turn. So the summoner may be able to go at the same time as the summon, or after. But not before.
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When the summoned creature acts is undefined, other than on the summoner's initiative. The summoner could choose to act before or after the summoned monsters.Actually, the wording is immediately on the summoner's turn. So the summoner may be able to go at the same time as the summon, or after. But not before.
There is no "same time" in pathfinder. All actions are resolved sequentially. "Step A" is resolved completely before "Step B" is initiated unless otherwise specified by the rules.
This spell summons an extraplanar creature (typically an outsider, elemental, or magical beast native to another plane). It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.
You forgot the comma when you cited the rule. It makes a world of difference. As written Summon Monster specifies that summoned creature acts in the current turn, but not when. Without the comma it would be specifying precisely when the action took place, "immediately upon being summoned."
I always let the player decide if him or his summons act first. There is really no rule for this though.
You forgot the comma when you cited the rule. It makes a world of difference. As written Summon Monster specifies that summoned creature acts in the current turn, but not when. Without the comma it would be specifying precisely when the action took place, "immediately upon being summoned."
I didn't forget the comma. The way it's written, the creature DOES act immediately when it's summoned. Let's break it down, because I think you're getting confused by the comma.
On your turn: It appears where you designate AND acts immediately.
So both of those things happen. If you chose when the creature was able to act, it would say so. The "on your turn" bit is to remove any confusion of when the creature acts, since technically 1 round casting spell finishes just before your initiative count.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Further, even looking at this rule right here, it kind of answers the argument. The series of events goes like this:
Round 1; Init 15: You start casting Summon Monster 1
Round 1; Init 14-0: Other people act, do stuff
Round 2; Init 14.9/15: You finish casting the spell (which you HAVE to do before you act normally) which involves choosing the spot you designate for the creature to pop into existence. And then IMMEDIATELY (like the spell says) when that creature pops up, it acts.
Round 2; Init 15: Now you can act normally since you've finished the spell.
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Since nobody ever acts simultaneously, only sequentially, your summoned monster does the entirety of its turn before you, or entirely after you, but on the same initiative number.
Flip-flopping the order (this turn the monster goes first, next turn the caster goes first, third round the monster goes first again) is possible because that's made possible through Delay actions. But it would require you to be able to communicate with your monster, so only if the monster is smart enough to understand you.
I see no problem with summoning a creature, casting haste, then having the creature attack.
Wizard finishes summoning a Dire Boar.
Wizard has yet to indicate who the Dire Boar is to attack.
Dire Boar waits (delays) for orders.
Wizard casts Haste.
Wizard directs Dire Boar to attack an enemy.
Dire Boar attacks the enemy.
- Gauss
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didn't forget the comma. The way it's written, the creature DOES act immediately when it's summoned. Let's break it down, because I think you're getting confused by the comma.
My quote is copy/pasted straight from the PRD. The SRD matches. The comma is supposed to be there.
And yes, the presence or absence of punctuation can radically alter the meaning of a sentence. In this case, it controls how the word immediately is applied.
I see no problem with summoning a creature, casting haste, then having the creature attack.
Wizard finishes summoning a Dire Boar.
Wizard has yet to indicate who the Dire Boar is to attack.
Dire Boar waits (delays) for orders.
Wizard casts Haste.
Wizard directs Dire Boar to attack an enemy.
Dire Boar attacks the enemy.- Gauss
Doesn't work that way. Wizard doesn't have to direct the summoned creature, and can only direct it against specific enemies if it can communicate with it.
didn't forget the comma. The way it's written, the creature DOES act immediately when it's summoned. Let's break it down, because I think you're getting confused by the comma.My quote is copy/pasted straight from the PRD. The SRD matches. The comma is supposed to be there.
And yes, the presence or absence of punctuation can radically alter the meaning of a sentence. In this case, it controls how the word immediately is applied.
I didn't forget the comma as in I didn't forget the fact that the comma is part of the spell. I know exactly how it's worded, and in some cases punctuation can change the way things work. I'm sorry, but in this case you're wrong.
"...immediately, on your turn." is not the same as "....immediately when you choose to have it act, on your turn."
You're adding meaning onto the spell without having any written word to support it.
Doggan, I mispoke slightly. Without indicating 'in general' who to attack the summoned creature cannot possibly know who the enemies are. There must be SOME level of communication there.
It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
Now, who is defined as opponents? Until you indicate it..nobody.
Wizard finishes summoning a Dire Boar.
Wizard has yet to indicate who the opponents are.
Dire Boar waits (delays) for that indication.
Wizard casts Haste.
Wizard indicates who the opponents are.
Dire Boar attacks the opponents.
Better?:)
- Gauss
Doggan, I mispoke slightly. Without indicating 'in general' who to attack the summoned creature cannot possibly know who the enemies are. There must be SOME level of communication there.
It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.Now, who is defined as opponents? Until you indicate it..nobody.
Wizard finishes summoning a Dire Boar.
Wizard has yet to indicate who the opponents are.
Dire Boar waits (delays) for that indication.
Wizard casts Haste.
Wizard indicates who the opponents are.
Dire Boar attacks the opponents.Better?:)
- Gauss
Interesting, but not better at all. Now you're trying to communicate who your enemies are to a creature that you cannot communicate with. You either know who your enemies around you are, or you don't. And it will either attack them without your direction, or it will attack no one (because you have no idea that enemies are around you).
Doggan, you must be communicating who is your enemy somehow. Otherwise a summoned creature will attack anyone. It simply does not make sense otherwise.
- Gauss
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Interesting, but not better at all. Now you're trying to communicate who your enemies are to a creature that you cannot communicate with. You either know who your enemies around you are, or you don't. And it will either attack them without your direction, or it will attack no one (because you have no idea that enemies are around you).
It's magic. The spell knows who the wizard considers an opponent.
When dealing with spells, you have to assume certain things are capable of occurring magically, without applying real world logic.
BTW, it is interesting that SKR also believes you can direct summoned creatures to attack.
- Gauss
Doggan, you must be communicating who is your enemy somehow. Otherwise a summoned creature will attack anyone. It simply does not make sense otherwise.
- Gauss
In that case, explain to me how you're communicating with creatures who can't understand you at all? Or are you saying you have to use handle animal on magical creatures, elementals, and other creatures that generally aren't controlled by the skill? And that you're using Push on every creature, since they're not actually trained in those tricks?
Or maybe the fact that it's magical has something to do with it, and it knows who your enemies are.
BTW, it is interesting that SKR also believes you can direct summoned creatures to attack.
- Gauss
You can direct them. You just have to have a way to communicate to do so. Otherwise they're on a bit of auto-pilot, and it attacks your enemies to the best of it's abilities without your say-so.
Well, since who is an opponent is mutable there must be some way that definition is getting to your summoned creature. You are either directing it on a basic level or there is some magical link defining it. Take your pick, the rules are silent on it.
- Gauss
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Looking at this again by RAW I'm going to have to agree with Doggan. The summons appears just before your turn and acts, unless you have a means to communicate with them. Then on your turn you can cast haste upon the creature(s).
If you can communicate you can order them to delay as speaking is a free action done at any time.
--Vrock the House
I'd say this is probably a good FAQ candidate.
BTW, it is interesting that SKR also believes you can direct summoned creatures to attack.
- Gauss
I think SKR was just saying that when you direct a summoned creature to attack it wont break invis. I don't think he is saying you automatically get to direct the creature. As for how it knows. I would say the magic dictates that. Does it make sense?
No.
It is not different than how some other spells only target allies.
You can't direct a summoned creature if you can't communicate with it. That is in the rules.
It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
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Well, since who is an opponent is mutable there must be some way that definition is getting to your summoned creature. You are either directing it on a basic level or there is some magical link defining it. Take your pick, the rules are silent on it.
- Gauss
I think it's baked into the magic, because there's a lot of things you can summon that you can't communicate with. The giant scorpion for example is mindless vermin. But it "knows" who your enemies are. The way the spells are written, there's no hint that there are some creatures that will be useless to summon because they're too stupid to pick an enemy to fight.
I think it's baked into magic to use your current friend/foe viewpoint; if you cast an ally buff or an enemy debuff, the magic knows who to target. It's the same for summon monster, I think.
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Looking at this again by RAW I'm going to have to agree with Doggan. The summons appears just before your turn and acts, unless you have a means to communicate with them. Then on your turn you can cast haste upon the creature(s).
If you can communicate you can order them to delay as speaking is a free action done at any time.
--Vrock the House
I think you're wrong; I'll try to show why.
SM is a full-round spell. That means:
Casting Time - Full Round A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
So the monster appears just before your turn;
Summon Monster It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn.
It doesn't act before your turn, it acts on your turn. The sentence doesn't mean it has to act before you; it means that the monster isn't surprised or suffering from summoning sickness or something like that, it gets to act after arriving.
Without that text, you might think the monster rolls initiative, which would mean that other people could take turns (and kill the monster) before it gets to do anything. Instead, it gets your initiative. That's what that text is for.
Ascalaphus, I like that idea, but it produces some interesting situations. What if your friend/foe viewpoint changes?
A) The spell was set at the time it was cast.
This means that if a friend becomes a foe, you are stuck with the friend setting. If someone new comes in, you are stuck in limbo.
B) You can change the friend/foe setting which changes it for the creature as well.
This produces a result of 'change the foe to friend, now it wont attack the foe' thus potentially bypassing having to handle animal the creature to stop attacking.
Personally, I think they should have written it as the handle animal 'attack command' but as a free action, without a handle animal check, and can order it to attack specific targets as directed. Other handle animal commands are conducted normally (requiring pushing the animal). Heck, Ill bet some people run it that way anyhow.
- Gauss
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I think it's mostly like B, except that you don't have that much freedom over who is considered an enemy. I think to be considered an enemy, either one is sufficient:
- the creature acts like/considers itself an enemy
- you consider it an enemy (and if you don't, you have to mean it)
So even if you would rather have opponent 1 not count as an enemy, that's too bad, because opponent 1 acts like an enemy and therefore is an enemy; and your summoned monsters will also fight opponent 1.
I think given the way the spell is written, you don't need actions to direct the summoned monster to attack enemies, but that's actually a disadvantage; you can't specify which enemy will be attacked (unless you can communicate of course), so the monster will pick the most appetizing/reasonable/closest target even if another target would have been better for you.
I think a professional monster summoner should be investing in quite a few languages and maybe the Feral Speech discovery because that added tactical flexibility is what makes him more than an amateur with summon monster on his list. For example, I took Terran because earth elementals' Earth Glide means they can do nifty tricks if you can order them too. Fire elementals were a lower priority but I eventually picked up Ignan too just in case.
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It doesn't act before your turn, it acts on your turn. The sentence doesn't mean it has to act before you; it means that the monster isn't surprised or suffering from summoning sickness or something like that, it gets to act after arriving.
Without that text, you might think the monster rolls initiative, which would mean that other people could take turns (and kill the monster) before it gets to do anything. Instead, it gets your initiative. That's what that text is for.
If that's the case however there is a rule to cover that which I stated in my first post. Whoever has the higher initiative modifier goes first. If its a tie, highest d20 roll wins.
Except that, by RAW, the summoned creature has not made an initiative check and therefore the rule does not apply. It goes on your initiative. The order is not defined.
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first).
No check, no tiebreaker.
- Gauss
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The critter goes before you, or it goes after you; determine it somehow. Either compare init modifiers or make it caster decision on summoning.
Thereafter, if the caster is going first, he can delay in order to switch to caster last.
If the monster is going first, the caster can order the monster to delay, so that the caster goes first. But only if they can communicate!
Whatever you do, don't ever interleave caster and monster actions. Always one before the other.
There is no solid rule I think the player can decide in which order the actions happen. Personally I let them act after the wizard, the wizard can then decide to buff them, give them exacting directions or the like, I am inclined to have the wizard delay his action till immediately after the summoned monster if he wants but if he does that it will be the same every round after, he can not switch it around on a round by round basis, but by letting the wizard go first he has the option how to resolve it, at least initially.
EDIT: this is kinda what Ascalaphus already said.
Further EDIT :, he can actually switch this on a round by round basis without house rules, which our group tends to use a lot.
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Well, it's clearly to the wizard's advantage to have the monster enter the initiative order immediately following the wizard, because then he also has the option of switching; whereas if the monster enters before him, and the monster is too dumb to communicate with, the wizard can't switch positions. So having the monster start out after the wizard is best for the wizard.
Actually, I'm starting to think the monster does enter the initiative order as an independent entity (capable of gaining some new initiative, due to Delay and Ready actions); it just happens to be initialized to the wizard's initiative. That does make it a lot easier to comprehend what happens if a summoned monster uses a readied action. And as a consequence, the monster's starting position (before/after the wizard) would be determined by comparing initiative modifiers.
So if you wanted to Haste stupid monsters, you'd better summon stupid monsters with initiative modifier worse than your own.
I'm not entirely sure, but I think you're allowed to talk even when it's not your initiative, so you could command smarter monsters to wait for a second and let you go first. If you can't talk out of order, then a fast smart monster would go before you in the first turn after arrival, and then you can issue a delay order that will be executed the second turn.
Well, it's clearly to the wizard's advantage to have the monster enter the initiative order immediately following the wizard, because then he also has the option of switching; whereas if the monster enters before him, and the monster is too dumb to communicate with, the wizard can't switch positions. So having the monster start out after the wizard is best for the wizard.
Actually, I'm starting to think the monster does enter the initiative order as an independent entity (capable of gaining some new initiative, due to Delay and Ready actions); it just happens to be initialized to the wizard's initiative. That does make it a lot easier to comprehend what happens if a summoned monster uses a readied action. And as a consequence, the monster's starting position (before/after the wizard) would be determined by comparing initiative modifiers.
So if you wanted to Haste stupid monsters, you'd better summon stupid monsters with initiative modifier worse than your own.
I'm not entirely sure, but I think you're allowed to talk even when it's not your initiative, so you could command smarter monsters to wait for a second and let you go first. If you can't talk out of order, then a fast smart monster would go before you in the first turn after arrival, and then you can issue a delay order that will be executed the second turn.
You can talk outside of your initiative though free actions are limited by GM interpretation, exacting and/or extensive commands might take some time to relay, it would be nice if the monsters did not just start attacking random enemies before the wizard decides what to do with them.
If you would want to nerf summoning a bit you could have them roll initiative of course but I am fairly sure they are assumed to attack on your initiative.
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So basically it goes like this:
Init N-1
--- full round summons completes, monster appears, monster initiative set to N.
Init N: wizard + monster's turn. Best initiative modifier goes first, unless wizard uses free action to tell monster to delay/go first.
Later on, the monster readies an action that goes off at initiative N+k; from then on, the monster's initiative will be just before N+k.