This was covered a bit back, in spoilers, but basically:
In 3.5, to notice a creature was either a spot check vs a variable DC, or a listen check vs move silently.
In 3.5, invisibility granted a bonus to hide checks.
This means, in 3.5, the only time that bonus to hide checks would be used is against someone who can see invisible. ("Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.")
So 3.5 having invisibility granting a bonus that only applies against creatures that can see invisible makes less sense than PFRPG having invisibility granting a bonus that applies against everyone, even when it has nothing to do with sight.
This is not how it worked in 3.5. In 3.5 it's all very simple and clear. There's a general DC 20 spot check to notice a creature who is invisible but not attempting to hide. There is nothing in rules about this only being applied with See Invisibility.
If the creature is attempting to Hide then it is simply a Perception check Vs Hide check+20 as outlined under the Hide skill.
That would lend support to it not being intended to be another 20 (or 40 or 60 points) harder than that now. Especially since back then you had Spot vs Hide and Listen vs Move Silently. Rolling it all into one skill shouldn't make it harder.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
[On another note: Someone mentioned the Invisible Stalker up tread, I have to say it just complicates matters further.
invsiible stalker wrote:
Natural Invisibility (Ex) This ability is constant—an invisible stalker remains invisible at all times, even when attacking. As this ability is inherent, it is not subject to the invisibility purge spell. Against foes that cannot pinpoint it, the invisible stalker gains a +20 bonus on Stealth checks when moving, or +40 when standing still—these bonuses are not included in the statistics above.
So you only get the bonus to stealth checks against creatures who have already failed to pinpoint you? What?
I'd assume that's against creatures without the ability to pinpoint it without Perception checks: Blind sight, see invisible, etc.
Of course, it doesn't really clear anything up, since it can still be argued that the Stalker Stealth check is still added to a base DC20 and 3 or 4 other +20 bonuses.
We really need an example from an AP or module where there's an invisible monster using stealth and they say explicitly: Perception DC X to notice him and Y to pinpoint.
BTW, how does everyone handle Darkness/Blindness? This actually came up last night, it was dark for some (they had no light in a dungeon) and some others where blinded by something covering their eyes, some had both.
Do you consider the other people in the room Invisible? I know there's a "blindness" condition, which seems a lot less severe. What if someone is blind and someone is invisible?
To answer your question directly: The bonus would come into play any time anyone was trying to perceive you and they would have a chance of seeing you if you weren't invisible. Which is most of the normal cases. If you turn invisible and try to sneak by the guard, it would count. Not only might he hear noises you make, but he might see footprints or dust you kick up, etc.
Ok.
Lets say Example Bob turns invisible and tries to get past a guard. Bob moves at half speed, and remains within 10' of the guard.
What does the guard need to get on his perception check to notice Bob's presence?
Now, lets say instead of just walking slowly, Bob was using stealth. Everything else is identical. Bob is using stealth, moving at half speed, and within 10' of the guard.
If Bob were not invisible, his stealth modifier would be +5. (12 Dex, 1 rank, class skill, no other bonuses or penalties)
Bob rolls a 3 on the d20 for his stealth check.
What does the guard need to get on his perception check to notice Bob's presence?
I don't see anything in that spell that says you lose any bonuses granted by the condition.
How about:
Quote:
You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible.
If you can see someone who is invisible as if they were normally visible, then they don't get the bonuses the invisible condition provides them against you, because they are considered visible to you.
Or, does the invisible person still get +2 to attack rolls and denies dex when he attacks the person with see invisibility?
In 3.5 it's all very simple and clear. There's a general DC 20 spot check to notice a creature who is invisible but not attempting to hide.
d20 Invisibility: "A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40)."
As you can see, hide does not affect that DC. It doesn't matter what you roll on your hide check, the spot DC is fixed.
It doesn't matter how good your hide check is, if you're not holding still, it's DC 20 spot check to be noticed, and DC 40 for them to pinpoint your square.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
If the creature is attempting to Hide then it is simply a Perception check Vs Hide check+20 as outlined under the Hide skill.
d20 Hide: "Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you."
A creature that cannot see invisible can not see you (assuming you're not in water), therefore there is no opposed Hide vs Spot check.
A creature that can see invisible might see you, so hide would apply, which matches up with this:
"Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible."
What if someone is blind and someone is invisible?
Apply both conditions.
And this is where I lose it.
I'm blind. I can't see you. It's hard for me to figure out where you are or hit you once I do.
Then you turn invisible. Now I can't see you even more? What sense does that make.
I shouldn't even know you're invisible. How could I tell? How does it make even the slightest difference to me?
No, it's a reference to the same thing being said under the Spot entry, you can become aware of an invisible creature that is not attempting to hide with a spot check of 20. If the creature is trying to hide then the normal rules for spot/hide take effect with the invisible creature getting a +40/20 for being invisible which is listed under the Hide Skill.
Quote:
A creature that can see invisible might see you, so hide would apply, which matches up with this:
"Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible."
Note my added emphasis, a creature who can beat the perception DC 20/30(+20 to pinpoint) for a non-hiding Invisible creature to become aware/pinpoint is indeed detecting you, ergo the ability to hide is helpful against them.
Also note that a creature who is not attempting to hide gets only a +10 for not moving while an inanimate object gets a +20 instead, it can be inferred that the creature who is hiding while invisible gets a +40 because part of hiding while not moving is holding perfectly still.
To answer your question directly: The bonus would come into play any time anyone was trying to perceive you and they would have a chance of seeing you if you weren't invisible. Which is most of the normal cases. If you turn invisible and try to sneak by the guard, it would count. Not only might he hear noises you make, but he might see footprints or dust you kick up, etc.
Ok.
Lets say Example Bob turns invisible and tries to get past a guard. Bob moves at half speed, and remains within 10' of the guard.
What does the guard need to get on his perception check to notice Bob's presence?
Now, lets say instead of just walking slowly, Bob was using stealth. Everything else is identical. Bob is using stealth, moving at half speed, and within 10' of the guard.
If Bob were not invisible, his stealth modifier would be +5. (12 Dex, 1 rank, class skill, no other bonuses or penalties)
Bob rolls a 3 on the d20 for his stealth check.
What does the guard need to get on his perception check to notice Bob's presence?
According the strict reading of the rules? Since that's what we were talking about when asking when the stealth bonus would come into play?
Non-stealth
DC20 -5 (half speed) +20 (Perception:Creature or object is invisible) = DC 35 to notice.
Stealth
DC20 -5 (half speed) +20 (Perception:Creature or object is invisible) +5 (rank& Dex) +3 (roll) +20 (stealth bonus) +20 (Stealth Check+20) = DC83 to notice.
Personally, as I've said before, I'd run it as DC 15 to notice unstealthed. DC23 w/ Stealth. An extra +20 to pinpoint in either case.
I'm not sure why you asked this, since I made that post in response to your claim that Invisibility gives extra special sneaky bonuses that make it harder to detect someone even if you wouldn't have been able to see them if they were visible or if they can see you anyway.
So, to flip the question around: What would be the guard's Perception DCs if he was under See Invisible? (Assume Dim Light so he can use stealth under any interpretation.)
Or what would be the DCs if Bob was trying to sneak by the guard on the other side of a 10' wall? Add a Non-invisible case there as well, please.
I'd run it as DC 15 to notice unstealthed. DC23 w/ Stealth.
23-15 = 8
The difference is the result of his stealth check without the bonus.
This contradicts what you said earlier, about how the bonus would come into play any time anyone was trying to perceive you and they would have a chance of seeing you if you weren't invisible
No, it's a reference to the same thing being said under the Spot entry, you can become aware of an invisible creature that is not attempting to hide with a spot check of 20.
The rules, which I linked and quoted for you, don't say anything about not attempting to hide.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
If the creature is trying to hide then the normal rules for spot/hide take effect
The rules, which I linked and quoted for you, say the opposed spot vs hide check is for opponents who might see you. If you're invisible, and the creature looking cannot see invisible, then the opponent cannot see you.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
Also note that a creature who is not attempting to hide gets only a +10 for not moving
The creature isn't getting anything. It's not a bonus, it's just changing the DC based on whether the creature is moving.
If the invisible creature is moving at half speed, it's a DC 20 spot check to be noticed.
If the invisible creature is moving at half speed and hiding, it's a DC 20 spot check to be noticed.
That DC does not change based on hide.
Ninja in the Rye wrote:
it can be inferred that the creature who is hiding while invisible gets a +40 because part of hiding while not moving is holding perfectly still.
There's no inference necessary, the rules explicitly tell you that an invisible creature gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if it is immobile.
But that doesn't have anything to do with the spot DC to notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet.
Further 3.5 discussion should be taken to a more appropriate forum.
I'd run it as DC 15 to notice unstealthed. DC23 w/ Stealth.
23-15 = 8
The difference is the result of his stealth check without the bonus.
This contradicts what you said earlier, about how the bonus would come into play any time anyone was trying to perceive you and they would have a chance of seeing you if you weren't invisible
I should have left that bit out. But of course, you jump on it and ignore the entire rest of my post.
I'm arguing two seperate cases here. One being how I run, taking a slightly looser interpretation of the rules that assumes that many of the various +20s are the same thing. In that interpretation there is no +20/+40 stealth bonus that is separate from the +20/+40 Perception DC modifier for being invisible.
Under that interpretation you never get a "Stealth bonus" whether or not they could see you if you weren't invisible.
Though I'll add that if the guard had See Invisible up, the DC would be 0 if Bob wasn't sneaking and 8 if he was. There's your bonus. (The -5 for half move only applies if you're invisible as far as I can tell.)
I've also been arguing my understanding of the strict interpretation of RAW, taking each reference as a separate modifier unless they can be reconciled as the same type and amount of modifier. This is closer to your interpretation, as I understand it, though I go a bit further with considering various modifiers as distinct, since I can't see why to rule some in and others out. Nor has anyone provided a good argument to do so.
That is the case that I was referring to when I tried to distinguish between the Stealth bonus not being relevant if they couldn't see you if you weren't invisible.
In that case I gave differing DCs of 83 and 35. 83-35 = 48. 8 from the roll & regular modifiers. 40 from Stealth bonuses.
Again, to flip the question around: What would be the guard's Perception DCs if he was under See Invisible? (Assume Dim Light so he can use stealth under any interpretation.)
Or what would be the DCs if Bob was trying to sneak by the guard on the other side of a 10' wall? Add a Non-invisible case there as well, please.
Every time I almost have a handle on this, someone argues nicely the other way, or another reference is brought up that contradicts something. Definitely need a FAQ/powers-that-be clarification on this...
My suggestion :
1 - Change the name of the Invisibility condition to UNSEEN. All the text remains the same, except :
(a) "invisible" is replaced by "unseen" (obviously),
(b) the fourth paragraph (the "notice the presence" and "pinpoint" language) changes - see below),
(c) the "Invisible creature is" table is modified and moved (see below),
(d) there would be a few other minor tweaks in the later language, but they are irrelevant to this conversation.
2 - Change first three sentences of the fourth paragraph (the "noticing"/and "pinpointing" language) like so:
"A creature can generally notice the presence of an active unseen creature within 30 feet with a Perception check opposed by the unseen creature's Stealth check +20. Success indicates the observer gains a hunch that "somethings's there" but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. Pinpointing the square the unseen creature is in requires a Perception check against the unseen creature's Stealth check +40.
(Note this leaves all the miss chance and "feeling about" mechanics unchanged.)
3 - Okay, but what about all the situational modifiers, you say? Remove the "Invisible creature is" table from Unseen condition, but add the first five lines (the speaking and moving stuff) to the Perception modifiers table.
Voila!!
Invisibility is a spell that grants a condition (unseen). To find an unseen creature requires a Perception check. The Perception check is subject to modifiers. (The size of those modifiers can be debated elsewhere...)
