I really like what Pathfinder have done with the Witch class in the upcoming APG. It has tonnes of flavour. I am hoping I get a chance to play this class when the new book is officially released. I envisage playing an ugly middle aged crone stooped over her cauldron brewing up mischief (potions) and cackling alot.
This naturally means that I would select the sub optimal Cauldron hex at 1st level which gives the witch the Brew Potion feat as well as a bonus to craft alchemy skill. While there are much more potent Hexes to get at early levels, this one just has so much flavour. However, the problem with the brew potion feat is the rules description.
It reads:
"Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price."
Now the potential problem lies with the words "you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price". My question is what are these raw materials? Your DM could really screw you over by making the raw materials really hard to come by even if you had the gold and the cauldron ready to go.
I was thinking of an alternative approach to this. What if the gold itself was the raw material? History is littered with fables of trying to use alchemy to turn straw or something else into gold. What if we reversed this? You use gold with your alchemy to turn it into a potion! I was also thinking that my witch could be even more sinister and require the organs of her fallen enemies as a key ingredient - you know Eye of Newt etc. You could just picture the party paladin being nauseated as the witch knelt down with her athame to remove the dead kobold's kidneys to brew up a cure light wounds potion for the party. Such a sinister picture that has so much role-play potential. I also like the idea of introducing the concept that the witch's potions are so foul that the party have to pass a fortitude test when imbibing or be sickened for a round while still gaining the benefit of the potion.
So what are people's thoughts on brewing potions and how does your GM handle the raw materials component of the feat?
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I really like what Pathfinder have done with the Witch class in the upcoming APG. It has tonnes of flavour. I am hoping I get a chance to play this class when the new book is officially released. I envisage playing an ugly middle aged crone stooped over her cauldron brewing up mischief (potions) and cackling alot.
This naturally means that I would select the sub optimal Cauldron hex at 1st level which gives the witch the Brew Potion feat as well as a bonus to craft alchemy skill. While there are much more potent Hexes to get at early levels, this one just has so much flavour. However, the problem with the brew potion feat is the rules description.
It reads:
"Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price."Now the potential problem lies with the words "you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price". My question is what are these raw materials? Your DM could really screw you over by making the raw materials really hard to come by even if you had the gold and the cauldron ready to go.
I was thinking of an alternative approach to this. What if the gold itself was the raw material? History is littered with fables of trying to use alchemy to turn straw or something else into gold. What if we reversed this? You use gold with your alchemy to turn it into a potion! I was also thinking that my witch could be even more sinister and require the organs of her fallen enemies as a key ingredient - you know Eye of Newt etc. You could just picture the party paladin being nauseated as the witch knelt down with her athame to remove the dead kobold's kidneys to brew up a cure light wounds potion for the party. Such a sinister picture that has so much role-play potential. I also...
I don't think so Tim. *Arm on hips Staredown*
But seriously now, that is just asking for trouble. I understand the flaws with potion making but the way it is prevents players from simply dumping the pile of treasure the got into a vat and instantly converting into something usefull. Think if they applied this logic to other magic item creation feats. You discover a hoard of treasure. Over the course of the next several nights you take apart the trinkets and gold and come out with a shinny new +2 flaming burst Composite Longbow(4str)
Doing so would in fact REDUCE rp opportunities as well, as the process of gathering such rare ingredients could be uses a great RP hook.
Plus giving you the ability to this essentially mirrors one of the discoveries that the alchemist gets in terms of allowing other players to use his extracts, an irreversible CHOICE he has to make.
I don't think so Tim. *Arm on hips Staredown*
LOL. Very nice.
But seriously now, that is just asking for trouble. I understand the flaws with potion making but the way it is prevents players from simply dumping the pile of treasure the got into a vat and instantly converting into something usefull. Think if they applied this logic to other magic item creation feats. You discover a hoard of treasure. Over the course of the next several nights you take apart the trinkets and gold and come out with a shinny new +2 flaming burst Composite Longbow(4str)
I think I'm missing something here. I don't understand how the witch could make a powerful bow from a potion? Brew Potion feat as I understand it only lets her create potions of level 1 to level 3 of spells she already knows and can prepare. What am I not getting?
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I think I'm missing something here. I don't understand how the witch could make a powerful bow from a potion? Brew Potion feat as I understand it only lets her create potions of level 1 to level 3 of spells she already knows and can prepare. What am I not getting?
It is more of a continuity thing than a specific case deal. The argument being that if you can craft gold into potions without having to spend it then you SHOULD be able to do the same thing for using it to craft OTHER magic items.
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for potions
Then
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for any other crafting
You follow?
It is more of a continuity thing than a specific case deal. The argument being that if you can craft gold into potions without having to spend it then you SHOULD be able to do the same thing for using it to craft OTHER magic items.
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for potions
Then
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for any other craftingYou follow?
Aah! Thin edge of the wedge argument. I see your point. That still begs the question - what should the ingredients be then? The feat/hex could effectively be worthless if specific ingredients are difficult to source.
The specifics are left nebulous because it's always something to the effect of "rare herbs and unguents worth X GP" Like the material component for True Seeing--it's some ungodly expensive eye ointment that contains saffron, which in the real world is an ungodly expensive spice and thus could be responsible for the price of the material component except for the fact that saffron in the D&D 3.5/Pathfinder universe is 15 GP per lb. (yes, you read that right) meaning that 250 GP would get you 16 2/3rds lbs of pure saffron to stick in your eyes.
Of course, the ointment also contains fat and mushrooms. One assumes that the mushrooms must be the actual costly ingredient due to the insane cheapness of saffron.
Basically, it's handwaved away. Potion brewers are assumed to get what they need at the local magic shop, by trading with fellow professionals, or whatever.
One interesting bit of folklore that may be useful is the concept of an item "bought without haggling" being more useful for magic than one without. Hence a witch who needs 250 GP of wildflowers for a potion just needs to find some peasant child with a bunch of flowers she was bringing to her mother and say "My dear, what pretty flowers! Give them to me and I will reward you handsomely with coin you may take to your mother instead." The witch then hands the kid a bag with 250 GP and goes off with the items she needs for her potion.
Alternately you can have all the village children go off and gather grot for you and you reward the ones who come up with the dead frogs and so forth that you need.
As for including kobold giblets in your potions, it 3.0 the write up for a flesh golem said that it took 500 GP to create the body, and the body needed to be made up from at least six different corpses. I followed this formula to decide that every corpse is worth 83 GP and change. 3.5/Pathfinder switched the 500 GP to the cost for unguents and sutures, but it's easy enough to declare a corpse worth a certain amount and let the witch use the kobold giblets for a portion of the potion ingredients.
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Aah! Thin edge of the wedge argument. I see your point. That still begs the question - what should the ingredients be then? The feat/hex could effectively be worthless if specific ingredients are difficult to source.
The ingredients to potions are intentionally left to be generic... like tofu. The DM chooses the flavor. Personally I'd let my player scavenge an appropriate worth of ingredients off the monsters they kill equal to their share of the gold for the encounter in exchange for the RP investment and trading out their reward for those ingredients. Or if the group want to go for it I would just deduct one players worth of wealth from the treasure distribution and still split up the treasure equally.
For instance say you kill a murder of dire crows that would he equivalent to the party level in challenge. Lets also say the party is level 7 and according the various sources the encounter is supposed to award them about 2600g.
In a 5 PC party that is 520g per player, I could either deduct that much from the the overall and instead give them 416g each or let all the non crafters collect a full amount and shaft the witch. All depending on how the players want to run it.
So say that happens, you carve up the corpses and gather some rare feathers, some organs, brain tissue, claws etc, all things that could realistically go into a potion traditionally. It is all just the fluff background footwork a DM is supposed to do for a game, you have only to engage them on it.
Make sense?
in our gruop we use a component-system for potions and alchemical substances.
You have 4 basic components: animal, plant, mineral and essence
Essence is for example Dew on roses in the morning after a full moon
Every potion has %-Values for each component.
For example: Healing Potion 10% Animal, 20% Plant 30% Mineral and 50% Essence
So during the adventure the group kills some big spiders - Skillcheck to harvest animal-comoponents from the spiders, (Check-Result -DC)x1 GP animal components found.
Later the character wants to brew some healing potion (Worth 100 GP),
so he needs animal components for 10 GP, plant components for 20 GP etc.
He has to buy (if possible) the components when he has not found enough material of the right sort.
This allows for a complex brew-system without the need to write down an explicit recipe for every potion - you only need to know the %-Values for each of the four components
I really like what Pathfinder have done with the Witch class in the upcoming APG. It has tonnes of flavour. I am hoping I get a chance to play this class when the new book is officially released. I envisage playing an ugly middle aged crone stooped over her cauldron brewing up mischief (potions) and cackling alot.
This naturally means that I would select the sub optimal Cauldron hex at 1st level which gives the witch the Brew Potion feat as well as a bonus to craft alchemy skill...
With my Witch I simply maxed out Craft (alchemy) (which is based off Int - so her score is already really high) and she crafts Alchemist Fires (all in little pumpkins), Acid Flasks, Smokesticks and Tanglefoot bags.
I give them to other party members, and my Mephit Improved Familiar (that resembles a winged monkey)
Often, by the 3rd round of combat, her actions are to cackle while throwing pumpkin bombs and tanglefoot bags with her mephit. Lots of fun.
Didn't bother with the Cauldron hex. Didn't see how that adds anything to the visual. (admittedly I'm not a potion fan though)
I really like what Pathfinder have done with the Witch class in the upcoming APG. It has tonnes of flavour. I am hoping I get a chance to play this class when the new book is officially released. I envisage playing an ugly middle aged crone stooped over her cauldron brewing up mischief (potions) and cackling alot.
This naturally means that I would select the sub optimal Cauldron hex at 1st level which gives the witch the Brew Potion feat as well as a bonus to craft alchemy skill. While there are much more potent Hexes to get at early levels, this one just has so much flavour. However, the problem with the brew potion feat is the rules description.
It reads:
"Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price."Now the potential problem lies with the words "you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price". My question is what are these raw materials? Your DM could really screw you over by making the raw materials really hard to come by even if you had the gold and the cauldron ready to go.
I was thinking of an alternative approach to this. What if the gold itself was the raw material? History is littered with fables of trying to use alchemy to turn straw or something else into gold. What if we reversed this? You use gold with your alchemy to turn it into a potion! I was also thinking that my witch could be even more sinister and require the organs of her fallen enemies as a key ingredient - you know Eye of Newt etc. You could just picture the party paladin being nauseated as the witch knelt down with her athame to remove the dead kobold's kidneys to brew up a cure light wounds potion for the party. Such a sinister picture that has so much role-play potential. I also...
I am thinking the components are generally assumed to be available to be bought in every fair sized town, you could probably get your GM to shave some money off if you invest in herbalism, or harvest components of exotic creatures suitable for a specific potion (a wyrmling red dragon's blood might sevre for fire/ fire resistance related potions), I'd prolly allow for a reduction of up to 50 % cost, the rest being in materials too directly related to a gold value (like gems, valuable metals or common trade goods).
Sometimes I will actually require characters to harvest materials, reducing cost while doing so, usually not for potions and scrolls though.
Aah! Thin edge of the wedge argument. I see your point. That still begs the question - what should the ingredients be then? The feat/hex could effectively be worthless if specific ingredients are difficult to source.It is more of a continuity thing than a specific case deal. The argument being that if you can craft gold into potions without having to spend it then you SHOULD be able to do the same thing for using it to craft OTHER magic items.
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for potions
Then
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for any other craftingYou follow?
Aah! The unreasonable GM arguement! I see your point. That still begs the question - if your GM makes you fight an Ancient Red Dragon to create a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, why are you playing in his game?
Seriously, these are low level spells. Even when you are a low level character, you probably can't afford to craft more than a few of them between adventures, so this ability is hardly game breaking.
It might be cool to allow the characters to quest for their materials, rather than pay for them. Forcing them to is unreasonable. At low levels it could be realistic. At mid and high levels, it would just be a game killer. Even a sadistic GM would tire of that in short order.
My witch took the Cauldron hex as well, but since we are in a jungle setting, I just tell my DM "I'm lookin fer stuff" anytime we are on foot, Or i announce I am dropping X GP in the next town we come across, to buy'em. Then again, my whole back story is itinerant potion seller, so my DM leaves it alone for the most part.
Components for 1-3rd level spells should be fairly common, IMO, since even most primitive nomadic tribes would STILL have at least an Adept capable of healing and such. I agree with other posters, if your DM is that ginormous a douche as to really run you around for fairly common component, why play with them?
Don't forget, calling it the "Cauldron" hex doesn't mean you have to have something you could boil a whole team of missionaries in :) I have described my tools as a spice rack, a rolled up bandoleer of vials, and a bulbous cast iron pot about as big as my head.
why are creation feats banned in PFS? Just to streamline everything/ allow game to game compatibility?
Huh, good to know. Thanks!
With my Witch I simply maxed out Craft (alchemy) (which is based off Int - so her score is already really high) and she crafts Alchemist Fires (all in little pumpkins), Acid Flasks, Smokesticks and Tanglefoot bags.
I give them to other party members, and my Mephit Improved Familiar (that resembles a winged monkey)
Often, by the 3rd round of combat, her actions are to cackle while throwing pumpkin bombs and tanglefoot bags with her mephit. Lots of fun.
Your ideas are pretty cool. Instead of little pumpkins I think my witch would use the shrunken heads of her dead enemies.
Did you take Skill Focus Craft(Alchemy) as one of your feats?
With my Witch I simply maxed out Craft (alchemy) (which is based off Int - so her score is already really high) and she crafts Alchemist Fires (all in little pumpkins), Acid Flasks, Smokesticks and Tanglefoot bags.
I give them to other party members, and my Mephit Improved Familiar (that resembles a winged monkey)
Often, by the 3rd round of combat, her actions are to cackle while throwing pumpkin bombs and tanglefoot bags with her mephit. Lots of fun.
Your ideas are pretty cool. Instead of little pumpkins I think my witch would use the shrunken heads of her dead enemies.
Did you take Skill Focus Craft(Alchemy) as one of your feats?
Nope - but have a very high Int - so my Alchemy score is still pretty good.
For Feats I went with Improved Init, Great Fortitude, Improved great fortitude, Iron Will, Improved Familiar, and Skill Focus (UMD) (So far - we are currently level 11)
Aah! The unreasonable GM arguement! I see your point. That still begs the question - if your GM makes you fight an Ancient Red Dragon to create a potion of Cure Moderate Wounds, why are you playing in his game?
THIS
Yes, a GM *could* 'screw you over'...
...but that's a flaw with your/the GM, not the system.
A good GM will encourage you to rummage around for bits and bobs, grow strange herbs and mushrooms collected from old caves, haggle for hangman's nails, go berry picking under a new moon and so on, in a way that is fun and rewarding.
..that's what witches do isn't it? To me that's pretty much the definition of 'witch like' behaviour.
Yes it might take some time but you can stock up, gather and collect for later.
A good GM will know how to juggle rp/flavour with effort/time/reward. If they don't you can always talk to them, reason with them - help them to help you etc
You want flavour? Go find some spice. Ideally at midnight and gathered with a silver blade :)
I also like the idea of introducing the concept that the witch's potions are so foul that the party have to pass a fortitude test when imbibing or be sickened for a round while still gaining the benefit of the potion.
I can warn you from experience that this can backfire. Many PCs hate giving up actions during combat to drink potions. If you add negative effects to your potions people are more likely to stop using the potions during combat. I thought it would be funny if my gnome could make alchemical beer, but it ended up being kind of a dud idea since PCs who drink my potions need to make Fort saves to avoid getting drunk. Once a few folks failed that save beer consumption went way down.
Now the potential problem lies with the words "you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price". My question is what are these raw materials? Your DM could really screw you over by making the raw materials really hard to come by even if you had the gold and the cauldron ready to go.
A character's class abilities should not be subject to DM whim. All things being equal, the witch should be able to use the cauldron assuming the proper time, place, and funds.
Now the potential problem lies with the words "you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price". My question is what are these raw materials? Your DM could really screw you over by making the raw materials really hard to come by even if you had the gold and the cauldron ready to go.A character's class abilities should not be subject to DM whim. All things being equal, the witch should be able to use the cauldron assuming the proper time, place, and funds.
The existence of your character is in the hands of the DM..
...where's the trust!? :)
Gathering reagents/components is highly dependant on the campaign world.
The player can sit down with their DM and map out every single possible reagent/component, how it's gathered, stored etc.
However, this extra 'work' can by skipped if the player can trust their DM to make gathering reagents/components fun and consistant.
Once the player collected the reagents/components for one potion you have a precendent that can be reffered to by both the player and the DM for future gatherings.
I.E If it the reagents/components for a Potion of Happy required the gathering of 3 magic shrooms of the moon from an abandoned mine the first time, it should require the same steps to gather them the second.
--
Now, personally I believe that a system attempting to represent such ellaborate collaboration/collective creativity will sacrifice flavour/style/creativity for functionality.
If I were the DM, I would rule that the components needed to make your potions would be common enough that no extra role-playing would be required. Just deduct the GP cost and assume you either harvested, paid for, or bartered for the required stuff at some point.
Then, if the PC wanted to juice up his/her potions, he/she could add some exotic component whose effect would be determined on a case-by-case basis by the DM. Of course, the PC is always free to pitch an idea to me. A troll's liver enhances a potion of healing, a pint of red dragon blood adds one spell level to the power of the potion, etc.
Best of both worlds. You aren't hung up on the need for exotic components on a daily basis, but there's still the option there for cool quests, etc.
If I were the DM, I would rule that the components needed to make your potions would be common enough that no extra role-playing would be required. Just deduct the GP cost and assume you either harvested, paid for, or bartered for the required stuff at some point.
Then, if the PC wanted to juice up his/her potions, he/she could add some exotic component whose effect would be determined on a case-by-case basis by the DM. Of course, the PC is always free to pitch an idea to me. A troll's liver enhances a potion of healing, a pint of red dragon blood adds one spell level to the power of the potion, etc.
Best of both worlds. You aren't hung up on the need for exotic components on a daily basis, but there's still the option there for cool quests, etc.
I GM most of my games and that's similar to what I do.
But instead of boosting magic items, I allow the player to use exotic components as replacement for gold. i.e. I work out what and equivalent cost of creating/finding it would be.
Your trolls liver for example, I'd rule it to be worth 10gp in potion making components so if the PCs ran into a troll (and the PC knew the potion formula), I'd let them harvest it to offset the cost of a future potion.
For me it's a matter time and group dynamics.
Option 1) Gm demands minutia roleplayed minute by minute:
Assuming everyone in the group enjoys this, this works great with lots of real time to devote to such things. Any plots or adventure hooks get massive verisimilitude from players roleplaying how they take a shave every morning, count the grains of salt for material components and explain how their spell component pouches can be accessed without taking more than a quick action for each spell. I had fun with this when I was in HS, had summers to roleplay every day and all day if I desired.
Option 2) Gm waves the hand and says players get what they want as long as they have the gp for it:
This works good if time is limited, and the GM trusts the players not to get anything beyond their means. Maybe the group all have families, work, or other activities, or just having the plot proceed takes precedence over roleplaying behind-the-scenes elements.
It's not just the players or the Gm, it's both. Everyone should agree in what everyone finds fun, ideally.
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I think I'm missing something here. I don't understand how the witch could make a powerful bow from a potion? Brew Potion feat as I understand it only lets her create potions of level 1 to level 3 of spells she already knows and can prepare. What am I not getting?
It is more of a continuity thing than a specific case deal. The argument being that if you can craft gold into potions without having to spend it then you SHOULD be able to do the same thing for using it to craft OTHER magic items.
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for potions
Then
Raw Gold = Crafting materials for any other craftingYou follow?
ummm since when is magic supposed to be logical? lol :)
maybe brewing potions requires gold, while scribing scrolls requires platinum and making wands requires dragon bones! Or maybe instead of dragon bones it requires mud... who knows :)
lol mud wands... makes me laugh thinking of a witch waving her mud wand around in the rain... "It's melting it's MELTING!"
anyway...
back on topic!
In general the way I have interpreted components is based out of the magic section as well... helps to read the whole darned book and then synthesize it all together. I still have not managed that properly. Anyway, components to a spell are ASSUMED to be miscellaneous nick knacks picked up from a spell component pouch for the most part. The unusual components are listed in spell descriptions and do not normally come in the pouches. For instance if the spell needs 50gp worth of diamond dust, that has to be bought separate. Everything else you should need should be found in the standard spell component pouch. So, if the spell description does not list some extra, unusual component, then a spell pouch should suffice.