We all know "those" players that always insist on some out of place character.
For me, it's someone wanting to play a Kitsune Druid or Oracle in Shattered Star. I really don't want to let him play it, but I can't come up with a good enough justification for him.
I've tried "Um, you do realize no one in Magnimar here has probably ever seen a kitsune right? They would see a fox person and say 'zomg animal person must be lamashtu kill it with fire!!!!!!!1!!!!11!!!!' and round up a mob to kill you."
I've tried just a flat "No, I don't want this to become some silly furry game. Shattered Star is grim."
I've even said "Sure, just disguise often using your racial ability (see first point" and he said "Why would I play a kitsune if I would just look like a human?"
He's not taking any of it. I would like to ask for some help, and some affirmation that I'm not being one of the infamous super-strict GMs.
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The race doesn't fit in how you see the setting. I love Dark Sun (to the death of many PCs, of course). Once someone wanted to play a Gnome. I tried to see how it could happen, but in the end, I couldn't. I told him that he couldn't play it, and that's all there was to it. I was the DM and there were a plethora of other options that didn't conflict with the setting.
I would also add that it shouldn't be up to the DM to explain why a weird race isn't allowed, but the PC should need to come up with a compelling enough reason to convince the DM to allow it.
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Kitsune can assume a human form as a racial ability, at-will. Atleast he's trying to be one of those, and not a gripli, or something in that vein.
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I should also note I initially tried "Ok, but you better have a pretty good reason to be in Magnimar." His response? "But I'm a player character, I don't have to worry about why I'm there because it's just where we start, and we'll be heroes before something like that would come up."
Sorry; repeating posts
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I'm not seeing the problem.
Let him play the damn Kitsune. It breaks nothing.
I've tried just a flat "No, I don't want this to become some silly furry game. Shattered Star is grim."
Look if your first thoughts are:
A.) Animal people are always silly.
and
B.) "Kitsune means he likes teh furry pr0nz lol"
Perhaps the problem is on your end?
Kitsune can assume a human form as a racial ability, at-will. Atleast he's trying to be one of those, and not a gripli, or something in that vein.
If you had read my post, you would see I suggested to him to use this ability frequently (he has a habit of not really paying attention to racial abilities). He thought it would be pointless and boring.
And if he had said "Kitsune or gripli or I'm not playing" I would have almost instantly said kitsune. OR found another player, but that would give some backlash in this particular group.
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Based on the title, I came here expecting to hear horror stories of some neckbeard running a min-maxed synthesist deliberately trying to upstage the other players while making creepy advances toward them.
Instead I found a dude who wants to play a fox.
I'm not seeing the problem.
Let him play the damn Kitsune. It breaks nothing.
I've tried just a flat "No, I don't want this to become some silly furry game. Shattered Star is grim."Look if your first thoughts are:
A.) Animal people are always silly.
and
B.) "Kitsune means he likes teh furry pr0nz lol"
Perhaps the problem is on your end?
Regarding both points;
A.) They aren't always silly. It's just he has enough of a problem not playing a "normal" race like an elf without it getting ridiculous.
B.) Did I ever once mention "furry pr0nz?" First off, I don't view furry as a derogatory phrase as most people seem to. Second, if this was any other game other than Shattered Star I'd say it was fine. Shattered Star just doesn't scream out "Play an anthropomorphic fox person."
How does it get ridiculous?
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If you've already tried the stern "No. Pick another non-animal race." and from what I've seen you've given plenty of warnings about how the race is treated in your game and what might happen, then I'd say follow through with what you said might happen.
I mean, as DM it is your right to outright refuse something. It is your game after all, "That race doesn't exist in my game world." is in my opinion reason enough for it to be denied. Yes, it is in a paizo book, that doesn't mean you have to allow it. Some DMs ban Synthesist summoners even though they are in a book and I'm sure DMs ban many other things that are less preposterous than a Fox person.
However, you've warned them of the consequences and so it's your right to bring those consequences into play when the timing is right.
Second, if this was any other game other than Shattered Star I'd say it was fine. Shattered Star just doesn't scream out "Play an anthropomorphic fox person."
What would happen if you let him? It doesnt sound that bad to me.
If you've already tried the stern "No. Pick another non-animal race." and from what I've seen you've given plenty of warnings about how the race is treated in your game and what might happen, then I'd say follow through with what you said might happen.
I mean, as DM it is your right to outright refuse something. It is your game after all, "That race doesn't exist in my game world." is in my opinion reason enough for it to be denied. Yes, it is in a paizo book, that doesn't mean you have to allow it. Some DMs ban Synthesist summoners even though they are in a book and I'm sure DMs ban many other things that are less preposterous than a Fox person.
However, you've warned them of the consequences and so it's your right to bring those consequences into play when the timing is right.
While this is true, the description of the interaction so far doesnt suggest that poor consequences are going to be easily accepted by the player.
One can never tell with secondhand, one-sided accounts, of course, but I suspect this course of action would result in resentment (and a resentful player mid-game is much worse than an argument with said player before the game).
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What would happen if you let him? It doesnt sound that bad to me.
Human druids are humans who are in touch with nature, have special animal companions, cast magic spells, and can turn into foxes.
Kitsune druids are foxes who are in touch with nature, have special animal companions, cast magic spells, and can turn into humans.
The former is perfect for a solemn and grim campaign, but the latter would obliterate the seriousness of my elfgames.
How does it get ridiculous?
Let's see... (These are another GM's game which I have no control over, but I do play in)
Attempting to seduce every female NPC.
Trying to steal from the party and complaining when his character is punished.
Stabbing someone we are trying to interrogate. This one I'll have to explain. The party (LG Paladin, LG Cleric, CG Ranger, and his CN Rogue) is interrogating a terrorist type character. We are all using fairly humane methods of interrogation, when he suddenly takes a dagger and delivers a coup-de-grace to him before we get any information out of him. Then complaining when we basically lock his character up in the most secure prison we can find.
Generally being a problem player.
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I don't see the problem. You are the GM you control what is and is not allowed in your games. I do the same thing with Ninja's and Samurai, and a lot of the non human looking races.
If you do not want him to play the race simply tell him its not allowed.
If he insists, tell him to run a game or to find a new one to play in.
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Say fine and in the 1st adventure have he character killed. Did the same thing to a party member that wanted to play a Kender in 1 of my games. If the person in question does not except ur answer of no with the politeness of actually giving a reason then just kill off the character. If it persist kick him/her out of ur game.
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How does it get ridiculous?Let's see... (These are another GM's game which I have no control over, but I do play in)
Attempting to seduce every female NPC.
Trying to steal from the party and complaining when his character is punished.
Stabbing someone we are trying to interrogate. This one I'll have to explain. The party (LG Paladin, LG Cleric, CG Ranger, and his CN Rogue) is interrogating a terrorist type character. We are all using fairly humane methods of interrogation, when he suddenly takes a dagger and delivers a coup-de-grace to him before we get any information out of him. Then complaining when we basically lock his character up in the most secure prison we can find.
Generally being a problem player.
So he may be a problem player, but what does any of that have to do with kitsune? If he's going to cause problems, he'll cause them without foxes too.
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What would happen if you let him? It doesnt sound that bad to me.Human druids are humans who are in touch with nature, have special animal companions, cast magic spells, and can turn into foxes.
Kitsune druids are foxes who are in touch with nature, have special animal companions, cast magic spells, and can turn into humans.
The former is perfect for a solemn and grim campaign, but the latter would obliterate the seriousness of my elfgames.
I detect a moderate amount of sarcasm here.
My problem is /not/ with kitsune. They have their place. But I don's think their place is in this kind of campaign.
If you were to run a light-hearted adventure, and someone insisted on playing a angsty and somber half-orc barbarian who laments the gods for killing everyone he knows, would you say that this adds or subtracts from the game that you have crafted to be light-hearted?
You have told the player what will happen, so bring on the mobs. As "The Human Diversion" said, Actions have consequences.
Yes, it is likely that the consequences brought on by the kitsune could derail the campaign a bit.
You might also consult with your other players. Let them know that a character of that type will lead to problems. Discuss what the party needs to be successful and approach it from the point of view of what the Kitsune will contribute. If a Kitsune can't pull its weight, it may be easier to argue agaisnt it. It may work better
Unless you want to ban it out right, consequences are the best route.
I have a player who decided he just had to run a half ork Ogerkin. He is dumb as dirt and everywhere he goes people scream and run away. They are currenlty sitting in a jail cell because the Ogerkin was accused of starting a fight with a berieved local whose family was killed by ogers. I haven't planned out the trial yet. Should be interesting.
The party, so far, has put up with the consequences, because at low level he can deal out the damage (STR 25). But if he couldn't do anything, there would be more complaints.
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The problem is the player, not his race. I would tell him that consequences have actions. I mean in-game actions such as coup de gracing people with information.
As for him trying to seduce a lot of women have his reputation spread so they know who he is. If you think he will commit crimes in human or fox form, and use the alternate form to hide then remind him that divination spells do exist.
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personally I'm a big fan of giving them rope to hang themselves with, Let him play a kitsune and then have him running for his life.
It's your game it's your call, I have ZERO issue telling a player I have an issue with something as it doesn't fit with the campaign and leaving it at that.
How does it get ridiculous?Let's see... (These are another GM's game which I have no control over, but I do play in)
Attempting to seduce every female NPC.
Trying to steal from the party and complaining when his character is punished.
Stabbing someone we are trying to interrogate. This one I'll have to explain. The party (LG Paladin, LG Cleric, CG Ranger, and his CN Rogue) is interrogating a terrorist type character. We are all using fairly humane methods of interrogation, when he suddenly takes a dagger and delivers a coup-de-grace to him before we get any information out of him. Then complaining when we basically lock his character up in the most secure prison we can find.
Generally being a problem player.
Yeah, I have to agree that it sounds like he'll be a problem player whether he plays a kitsune or not. Wanting to play a kitsune is probably a product of his general "I'm not a cooperative player" tendencies. Just impose appropriate consequences for his actions and choices. Being a kitsune in Magnimar should mark him as pretty distinctive and probably pretty easy to find. Groups may use that in retribution for the things the PCs do.
The problem is the player, not his race. I would tell him that consequences have actions. I mean in-game actions such as coup de gracing people with information.
As for him trying to seduce a lot of women have his reputation spread so they know who he is. If you think he will commit crimes in human or fox form, and use the alternate form to hide then remind him that divination spells do exist.
THIS^
Ok, so looking at this thread, I've made up my mind. I'll let him play a kitsune, but will play out society's reactions /exactly/ as I have said I would.
However, feel free to continue the discussion.
good choice, Don't cut them any slack and be sure to throw plenty of racist npc's in his way.
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I have a guy in our group who makes really weird characters. There's an element that is him always wanting some ability that the other PC's aren't aware of. There's also an element where he plays a lot of games and the "old stand by" characters are boring to him. I initially bristled every time he wanted to play "a Chiss reformed dark Jedi that can use force lightning" or "half demon spellfire infused fallen lord on a quest for vengeance" because of the sheer ridiculousness of it all.
He actually is a pretty good gamer and his characters rarely caused a problem, if you can believe that. He's also got a lot of ideas so I just put my foot down on something if it's too powerful and he can come up with something else. Ask yourself this.
1. Are you sure it's going to be a problem? Maybe this is something you just need to get over. Many times things I thought would cause friction didn't. In fact more times than not, the two characters that didn't get along were more traditional and it was the players themselves always causing the problem regardless of what they were playing.
2. Is what they're doing going to get them killed? I've had characters do really stupid stuff and really start to screw with a party. Finally I let the town guards kill him. He wasn't thrilled but he didn't take it personally and his next character was less contentious. If he is someone that is going to take it really personal, ask yourself question number 3...
2. Do you really need this person to game with? Do you even like him? Is he any good at gaming? Why is he being invited? We basically stopped inviting someone over because all he did was fight with whoever was GM'ing and inevitably attacked or caused another party member to attack him. Most guys that are causing problems I just talk to out of game and ask what they want out of the experience. Some have never thought to ask themselves that and realized they don't like gaming. One person I play with realized he just doesn't care for certain styles of games. So when we play more D&D-traditional "adventurers go on quests of good" campaigns we don't invite him. He likes more sandbox style games like vampire and plays those. One person we stopped inviting all-together because he was always fighting with everyone.
Take inventory of what your friends want out of the experience and make sure you're all mostly on the same page. If everyone wants a dungeon crawl and someone wants to play anime style games, maybe you guys can do D&D and then try an Exalted campaign now and again, for example.
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Either just let him play it, since it sounds like the problem isn't the race but the player with whom you'll have an issue anyway, or just say 'no'. You don't need to justify it heavily, but you /do/ need to be firm and level with the player about what you want. If you hint or just try to convince, then the player will rightfully resent that you couldn't just be straight with him.
It does sound a bit overly strict though; animal-person isn't really any more inherently ridiculous than the core races.
Yeah this guy just sounds like a jerk player. Also, I don't necessarily see the Kitsune as some lighthearted race. It's not a friggin Care Bear. You can play it as some goofy children's book character, but you can do that with a human or an elf, too.
I will say, though, that if you have this gritty, grim game planned, and one or more of your players doesn't want to play that type of game, well, it's not just you that has to have fun in the game. The PC's are not characters in your novel; it's a collaborative game.
His stupid antics are destructive in-game. But if it's just an issue of being lighthearted, and you don't want that, did you ever stop to think you might be ruining his fun at the same time he's ruining yours?
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It sounds like the player is a problem regardless of whom or what he plays, if your description of his previous actions is accurate he's just a dick.
That said, your interpretation of Kitsune is different from the usual mythical one, they are not light fluffy care bears, but dark, sometimes malevolent tricksters that can posses and cause great trouble to people.
Kitsune are often presented as tricksters, with motives that vary from mischief to malevolence. Stories tell of kitsune playing tricks on overly proud samurai, greedy merchants, and boastful commoners, while the crueler ones abuse poor tradesmen and farmers or devout Buddhist monks. Their victims are usually men; women are possessed instead. For example, kitsune are thought to employ their kitsunebi to lead travelers astray in the manner of a will o' the wisp. Another tactic is for the kitsune to confuse its target with illusions or visions. Other common goals of trickster kitsune include seduction, theft of food, humiliation of the prideful, or vengeance for a perceived slight.
I had a kitsune in a campaign, I think it was the Jade Regent. It was appropriate race but he never assumed the fox hybrid form, though he did have the tails feat.
How does it get ridiculous?Let's see... (These are another GM's game which I have no control over, but I do play in)
Attempting to seduce every female NPC.
Trying to steal from the party and complaining when his character is punished.
Stabbing someone we are trying to interrogate. This one I'll have to explain. The party (LG Paladin, LG Cleric, CG Ranger, and his CN Rogue) is interrogating a terrorist type character. We are all using fairly humane methods of interrogation, when he suddenly takes a dagger and delivers a coup-de-grace to him before we get any information out of him. Then complaining when we basically lock his character up in the most secure prison we can find.
Generally being a problem player.
This isn't a Kitsune /racial problem. Its a player problem that can /will occur regardless of which race he is.
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If you were to run a light-hearted adventure, and someone insisted on playing a angsty and somber half-orc barbarian who laments the gods for killing everyone he knows, would you say that this adds or subtracts from the game that you have crafted to be light-hearted?
So what's so inherently silly and non-serious about playing an anthropomorphic animal versus a pointy eared hippy or a hobbit?
Ok, so looking at this thread, I've made up my mind. I'll let him play a kitsune, but will play out society's reactions /exactly/ as I have said I would.
However, feel free to continue the discussion.
Did you ever think about just...NOT being a dick?
Why is it so much a problem to you that he's playing a Kitsune that you're going to make every NPC go, and I quote "zomg animal person must be lamashtu kill it with fire!!!!!!!1!!!!11!!!!" and round up a mob to kill him.
His past actions are irrelevant to this case. The Kitsune race is not inherently disruptive and spitefully deciding to "punish" him in-game because he's made trouble in the past and wants to play a non-standard race just makes you the bad guy in this scenario.
If he's troublesome, boot him. That's well within your rights. But being a passive aggressive doucheweasel about letting him play his character but NOT REALLY won't help matters.
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Just say "No, you can't play a Kitsune in my campaign."
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Regarding race choice only, not behavior:
Magnimar's a booming port city on the Inner Sea, trading with Absalom and places even further abroad.
Kaer Maga is almost next door.
Anyone that can find their way to those two cities could easily show up in Magnimar. And then there's the Empyreal worship, which includes agathions. A kitsune would certainly draw attention, but not panic or a mob.
At least not for simply being a kitsune....
NPCs reacting naturally to bad PC behavior is something I'd NEED as both a GM and a player.
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I personally will never understand the restriction on races. the players are supposed to be heros. Glorion is a fantasy word, where dieities walk the land. As long as the player creates a great background, and accepts the hardships that come his way, i don't see what the problem is.
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Did you ever think about just...NOT being a dick?
Why is it so much a problem to you that he's playing a Kitsune that you're going to make every NPC go, and I quote "zomg animal person must be lamashtu kill it with fire!!!!!!!1!!!!11!!!!" and round up a mob to kill him.
His past actions are irrelevant to this case. The Kitsune race is not inherently disruptive and spitefully deciding to "punish" him in-game because he's made trouble in the past and wants to play a non-standard race just makes you the bad guy in this scenario.
If he's troublesome, boot him. That's well within your rights. But being a passive aggressive doucheweasel about letting him play his character but NOT REALLY won't help matters.
I think he is just trying to take away a tool that this ill-behaved player would use to be disruptive.
Likely, he would play up a squicky/furry PC, that would be a problem.
Again, the race is not the issue, but the player.
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What would happen if you let him? It doesnt sound that bad to me.Human druids are humans who are in touch with nature, have special animal companions, cast magic spells, and can turn into foxes.
Kitsune druids are foxes who are in touch with nature, have special animal companions, cast magic spells, and can turn into humans.
The former is perfect for a solemn and grim campaign, but the latter would obliterate the seriousness of my elfgames.
I detect a moderate amount of sarcasm here.
My problem is /not/ with kitsune. They have their place. But I don's think their place is in this kind of campaign.
If you were to run a light-hearted adventure, and someone insisted on playing a angsty and somber half-orc barbarian who laments the gods for killing everyone he knows, would you say that this adds or subtracts from the game that you have crafted to be light-hearted?
1)
Kitsune doesn't mean light-hearted and fun.Some Kitsune in legend are liver eating evil monsters.
They're not all about happy happy joy joy time
2) There are beastial races that don't seem to get too much guff, as well as Idylkin Assimar
3) See above, and tell him he can play a vulpial decended Assimar, he has his fox. You have something that should fit into the setting slightly better.
Everyone wins.
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Shattered star is a society focused game. The society has branches in Tian. It is not a stretch to have a kitsune in such a game.
That said, it sounds like the player is a problem player. Nothing about the kitsune race or anything he does build wise will fix this issue. Neither will anything you do in game. Talk with him as a friend and tell him how his behavior is reducing the fun of everyone at the table and talk it out as a friend. If he can not stop being a jerk...well rule one...don't play with jerks.
I think he is just trying to take away a tool that this ill-behaved player would use to be disruptive.Likely, he would play up a squicky/furry PC, that would be a problem.
Again, the race is not the issue, but the player.
Well if the player's an issue, he's gonna be an issue regardless.
And he'll likely be an issue in a way you DON'T expect in that case.