Meh, I'm okay with vanilla summoner. Either the summoner or the Eidolon will have dangerously low saves. And both of them will be undergeared, since they share wealth and item slots, which means at least one of them is lacking an item, or had to pay more for said item to combine it wih something else (with the WBL of a single character).
The only thing that really annoys me about them is their bizarre spell list. It's like the devs tried to pidgeonhole a full-caster into a half-caster class. Why do they need things like Haste as a 2nd lvel spell?
Master Summoner is a problem because it has so freaking many actions, and Synthesists compensate the loss of action economy with stupidly high survivability. Not to mention the really bizarre and equally confusing mechanics.
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Bringing the Eidolon down a peg or two might go a long way towards balance. I personally have not had much issue with vanilla summoners , but I have seen some crazy cheese with the archetypes. Creating it based more on the concept of an arcane druid sounds intriguing. One thing you could do along those lines is instead of allowing x amount of summon spells a day based on CHA, just allow a summoner to switch out any prepared spells for a summon spell similar to the druid ability with summon nature's ally. This would defiantly limit their spell usage.
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The big thing I'd consider is moving Pounce to a 3 point evolution that's not available until 7th level or so. That's when the big cat gets Pounce, and that's about as early as I think Pounce should be available for anybody.
I think it's pretty telling that the first thought of most optimizers is to get Pounce as soon as possible for an eidolon and maximize the number of attacks - that's usually a bad sign.
I guess the way to handle that approach would be to take each appropriate monster entry in the bestiaries and create animal companion-like entries for them, then modify the eidolon progression table to match the animal companion table more closely. I think James Jacobs hinted at preferring this approach.
Another option that would take less work would be to require a summoner to select one of the eidolon models and follow that model as closely as possible, taking all primary evolutions and as many secondary evolutions as his evolution pool and level permit. Once he has taken all possible secondary evolutions, the remaining points could be spent on ability score improvements, natural armor, or other quantitative improvements.
Then I'd consider allowing one in my games.
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Summoner isn't that bad.
as said, one of the two will have bad saves, and both will be generally missing something unless extra money is spent combining items. with costs extra money that stacks over time. plus the eidolon shares an equipment budget with the summoner.
the spell list, the summoner gets plenty of discounted spell levels, but look at the other drawbacks of their casting. they have far less slots than even a universalist wizard of the same level, and their delayed progression makes discounting practically neccessary. but it comes with lower DCs and fewer slots. they also have limited spells known, moreso than a sorcerer and a highly limited list of spells.
minmaxing the eidolon means the summoner master is going to be extremely fragile, and all those eidolon boosting spells cut into the summoner's versatility.
and even then, the big benefit of being a synthesist is all defensive and it is a defense you won't get to constantly abuse because of the fact ordinary cures don't work on the suit.
the master summoner has to nova to gain the level of action economy it is so famous for. and it cannot really support a 4 encounter day till the later levels, and it fails horribly at such cliche summoner shenanigans as summoning a succubus to take the paladin's virginity.
So for all you people who think the summoner is brokenly overpowered whilst wizard/ sorceress are not how would you nerf the class to bring it in line with the other high tier classes ?
Paizo tried to make the summoner the arcane version of a druid.
However, the eidolon is much more powerful and the summoners spells are much better in general. So you can't give him druid hp, BAB, and armor.
So having said that, you can start with the basics:
- Removing light armor proficiency (so he's like a wizard)
- Reducing him to wizard BAB
- Reducing him to d6 hp (perhaps)
Or you can make him be similar to other classes, so with a 6th level casting of a 6th level caster (as a bard), and have a pet who is not customizable at-will but instead picked from a list (the fact that it will be more powerful than the druid pet is not an issue, the main problem is the customization at-will).
When you will have fixed that, you will have a summoner who is correct (or even powerful through its pet), but not broken.
Make master summoner the base version of the class. Honestly I do not see what is so broken about having a lot of summons. Summons are nice but it's like throwing a lower CR encounter against a higher one. Not game breaking.
Or you can make him be similar to other classes, so with a 6th level casting of a 6th level caster (as a bard), and have a pet who is not customizable at-will but instead picked from a list (the fact that it will be more powerful than the druid pet is not an issue, the main problem is the customization at-will).
When you will have fixed that, you will have a summoner who is correct (or even powerful through its pet), but not broken.
I think this is probably the best solution. The summoner shouldn't have their eidolon nerfed down to druid strength. That's inappropriate. The druid has 9 levels of spellcasting, wildshape, and an animal companion- the summoner has 2/3 casting and a powerful summon.
The biggest issue, in my eyes, is the intense customization available to the summoner. It's too easy to min/max and a lot of the summoner rules are exceptions and special cases (so they're not well understood by the layman.)
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Nerf the Summoner ? No need, no need at all. All the game really needs is some counseling tips included so other players/characters can deal with their inferiority complexes. So sad, so sad. Long live the Summoner! =)
Look at how many FAQ entries there is for the summoner and the synthesist, and you will see that there IS a problem with this class.
Not a balance issue by the way, but that every single feature of the class is either an exception or so customizable it makes any other similar power from other classes irrelevant.
The fact that all of the eidolon/summoner weaknesses are exception as well does not help the class to be understandable and balanced either.
For the spell list, it is the list of a specialized sorcerer (9th level spell list), not the one of a bard level (6th level spell list), despite the lack of many spell slots.
So, no the class does not need nerfing, but clarifications and making it the same way other classes work : by the rules (and not by exceptions of the rules).
The Synthesist is worse, because it has all the issues of the summoner, plus the fact that the "fusion" works like the 3.5 way of shape shifting (taking PHYS stats of the form, ...), with bonus (take the EX, SU, SP abilities), not the pathfinder way (bonus to phys stats, take selected powers).
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Animal Companion stats for the Eidolon.
Meh, the eidolon build isn't that big of a deal to me. An optimized eidolon is no more better than an optimized whatever.
1-round summon time or 1 round/level summoning length.
They're Summoners. They're supposed to be good at summoning. Besides, it's just the SLA that have a shorter casting time, the summon spells cast from a spell slot have the normal 1 round casting time.
Haste/Slow/Etc at normal spell level.
I do agree that the spell list isn't perfect, but this is tempered by the fact that the summoner HAS to get the spells to heal the eidolon. This is especially true if the GM maintains that summoners are extremely rare and there aren't wands or potions readily available for purchase but must instead be crafted.
I do understand the potential problems, but as long as they're built correctly, I see no significant issues. I do have a summoner in my campaign. So far, she's been an equitable member of the party.
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but this is tempered by the fact that the summoner HAS to get the spells to heal the eidolon
Wand of Cure light wounds : 750gp.
Alternatively : Wand of Rejuvenate eidolon (lesser) : 750gp.What spells to heal the eidolon ? ^^
Have a Summoner in our group, and he's been playing since the class was released in the APG.
The Summoner class is as balanced as any other casting class- they struggle in the beginning, are awesome midrange, and then get a lot of options at higher levels. And they have a powerful pet.
The spell list is bad, our Summoner is struggling for spells (the list ends at 6th like a bard's does). But he makes good use of pit spells, grease, and glitterdust.
If anything, I'd like to see (and might house-rule in the future)a change for the Summoner class- "summon monster" limited by summoned's alignment vs the summoner's alignment, or use a concentration or caster level check to summon monsters a step or two (or totally) away from the summoner's alignment.
The eidolon is outdone by other classes in a 4+ player game, but can be indispensable in a small party of 2 or 3 players. In many cases, our Summoner dismisses the eidolon for another, more appropriate beastie.
Summoner-specific magic items are very rare. I tried to create a rod for the class and found it really was way too powerful for our particular campaign.
It is a class that until you experience it by playing or GMing it, it's going to seem wonky. Believe me, it's a very playable class.
The Summoner class should bring a diverse array of options to the party in the form of, ehh, summoned things. I play that the bad guys know summoned creatures have no xp value, but That Guy Over There is making them appear!
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My only suggestion is to limit the number of attacks an eidolon can make to it's "max attack" progression period. Regardless of how many limbs it has and weapons it's wielding etc.
The abuses I've seen "in theory" have always stemmed from pounce and cranking up attacks to 11.
Nothing else about the summoner really needs tweaking.
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My only suggestion is to limit the number of attacks an eidolon can make to it's "max attack" progression period. Regardless of how many limbs it has and weapons it's wielding etc.
The abuses I've seen "in theory" have always stemmed from pounce and cranking up attacks to 11.
Nothing else about the summoner really needs tweaking.
There was a post by Jason Buhlman regarding the number of attacks an eidolon can make. From what I recall, there was a debate as to whether the eidolon could get iterative attacks with manufactured weapons. His response was something to the effect that the original intent was that the eidolon's max attacks was supposed to be for ALL attacks, but that notation was accidentally left out. He went on to say that though that was the original intent, he went on to say that if people wanted to do it, he didn't see an issue.
Unfortunately, I can't find the link.
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to say.
I only said that past 1st level, an eidolon can be healed by the party healer normally (wand of cure light wound, clerics and druids, ...) or by a summoner who have a wand of rejuvenate eidolon (lesser).
He doesn't need to have healing spells known.
The Summoner class is as balanced as any other casting class- they struggle in the beginning
In the first 4 levels, the summoner is similar to a sorcerer (same spells, and easy access to some spells), and the eidolon is better than a fighter. He is not struggling. And that is not really changing from level 1 to level 20.
The spell list is bad, our Summoner is struggling for spellslist of good spells :
- cantrips : Detect magic, guidance (for free bonus)
- 1st level : Enlarge person, Grease, Mage armor (same list for the sorcerer, but you can add Sleep or Color spray)
- 2nd level : Alter self, Barkskin, Detect thoughts, Evolution surge (lesser), Glitterdust, Haste (before the wizard does), Invisibility, Phantom steed, Resist energy, See invisibility, Summon eidolon, Wind wall : only good spells, with some from the druid spell list (barkskin), 2 for eidolon and 2 early access (haste, phantom steed). He also have all the good 2nd level wizard spells.
- 3rd level : Black tentacles (early access), charm monster (early access), Dimension door (early access), Dimensional anchor (early access), Dispel magic, displacement, Evolution surge, Fly, Invisibility greater (early access), Magic circle, Phantom steed communal (early access), Restore eidolon, Spiked pit, Summon monster IV (early access), Wall of ice (early access) : only good spells, with a great deal of early access, so that its list is more similar to a sorcerer of its caster level, than a bard of the same level. Here again, the difficulty is choosing amongst that list.
- 4th level : Contact other plane (early access), Evolution surge (greater), Hostile juxtaposition (early access), Overland flight (early access), Planar binding lesser (early access), Purified calling, Summon monster V (early access), Teleport (early access), Transmogrify, Wall of stone (early access) : same thing as above.
- 5th level : Create demi plane lesser (early access), Dispel magic greater (early access), Planar binding (early access), plane shift (early access), Repulsion (early access), Simulacrum (early access), Summon monster VII (early access), Greater teleport (early access), True seeing (early access) : same thing as above.
- 6th level : Mass Charm monster (early access), Create demi plane (early access), Dominate monster (early access), Maze (early access), Greater planar binding (early access) : same thing as above
So yeah : the summoner does have a spell list similar to a "9th spell level" caster (like the sorcerer), and not a "6th spell level" caster (like the bard).
Spell List Means nothing when you can only choose to learn so many at one time and and have drastically fewer slots for both known and per day than a sorcerer of the same level.
plus early access usually comes with a drawback attached, such as lower DCs or a shorter duration.
Spell List Means nothing when you can only choose to learn so many at one time and and have drastically fewer slots for both known and per day than a sorcerer of the same level.
Spell list means quite a lot. It's part of the reason PF made the magus instead of just a bard archetype. It has the same spell power as a bard or inquisitor, and knows just as many spells. Also, charisma boosts to the number of spells you can cast per day also help in that department.
plus early access usually comes with a drawback attached, such as lower DCs or a shorter duration.
Duration is based off of caster level not spell level. To fix DCs, that's why the metamagic feat, Heighten Spell exists, although many of those early spells are party buffs where DCs don't really matter.
There are also really, really good side effects, can anyone say Crafting? Scrolls, potions, and wands are all suddenly cheaper and faster to make if made by a summoner (if they wish to go that path).
All above is true Ragnarok Aeon, but:
Since you are getting the spells at lower level, when you get them means the duration is shorter.
Haste, get at 4th level, means 4 rounds of haste and you can only cast it 2 or 3 times a day. Granted, at 5th you have the same duration as a Wizard (5 rounds) who just got it, but the Wizard may not be so inclined to memorize the spell since you can 'spam' it.
Some of these faster access spells can be a trap in that you really can run out of spells fast.
Also, item creation feats? Not many would take them as a Summoner when they may look at those pretty Summoner Feats (Extra Evolution, Extra Summons, Vigilant Eidolon, etc...)
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I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're trying to say.I only said that past 1st level, an eidolon can be healed by the party healer normally (wand of cure light wound, clerics and druids, ...) or by a summoner who have a wand of rejuvenate eidolon (lesser).
He doesn't need to have healing spells known.
You know what, I read the line: "the eidolon does not heal naturally" to mean that the normal line of spells and methods don't work. Huh, learn something everyday. I might keep my interpretation as a house rule though.
As far as a rejuvenate eidolon wand, that falls on the GM. If playing in Golarion and following canon, those wands won't be readily available and the summoner must have the spell in order to get one crafted. (This is even more so the case if my house rule applies).
Heh ... well I started out really liking the summoner (base class from APG) ... had 1 player in Kingmaker that was a summoner. He didn't seem to be OP ... until the advent of Ultimate Magic ... and the Evolutionist archetype (I allowed the "switch" and then the eidolon became serpentine and hydra-like ... shudder) (4) attacks ... with improved natural attack (bite) ...
Fast forward to now ... and GM-ing RotR AE ... another of my players brings a dhampir [master summoner] in ... no problem ... an "under-powered" eidolon in exchange for having one summon monster spell's worth of summons out + eidolon ... even that's not the problem. What I see as a problem is the Neutral dhampir master summoner has started "spamming" the battlefield with lantern archons ... (if the eidolon isn't as effective in combat, he "poofs" the eidolon and summons more lantern archons).
Now - sure some of this is on me ... I need to take measures against the summoner (and his summons) ... but I don't want to appear "vindictive" or prickish either.
Although having said all that, we are approaching the point in which we have a lot of spellcaster foes ... who might know more (know better) about "arcanists" that "call" or "summon" a lot of ... aid - and be better equipped to deal with it (them).
I have decided ... no more Master Summoners though. Really, really bogs down the combat.
Wait, you complain that somethings are too strong while saying that some things are too weak?
That's generally how things work when there was even a modicum of an attempt to balance something.
Anyway, nerfing the Eidolon isn't the way to go about it. The Eidolon is the draw of the class, really.
FIXING the Eidolon would be good (some things are wonky, either too powerful or trap options), and cleaning up the wording of the class, but I don't really see it as a priority case, as I've never found the Summoner to really be OP.
The only thing I don't really like about Eidolons is that it's too easy to grab evolutions and to get one buffed out the ass to where its AC is annoyingly high, and still have it be a decent damage dealer.
Simple. Do more or less like James Jacobs intended the class should be- a spellcaster with a powerful otherworldly companion, like a demon/abomination/celestial.. The player gives the concept to the DM, and the DM designs the eidolon based upon that concept.
You know what, I read the line: "the eidolon does not heal naturally" to mean that the normal line of spells and methods don't work. Huh, learn something everyday. I might keep my interpretation as a house rule though.
You might have eluded this paragraph :
Natural Healing: With a full night's rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 hit point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night.
If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, you recover twice your character level in hit points.
Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore hit points.
Natural healing =/= Magical healing.
@Drdeth : +1
@Funky badger : that's my point of view ! It will be in tone with the new rules of polymorph in Pathfinder !
Why does everyone want to nerf the summoner? The summoner and Eidolon have a GLOW RUNE on their forehead. Many intelligent creatures would be able to make a check that would say. "Oh, that big scary beast and that guy in the back have the same shape on their head, I bet if I kill the squishy caster the big scary beast will go away too!" At least, that is how I always let the party/NPCs handle summoners.
To be fair, I don't allow the rune to be concealed in a mundane way like the book allows. A hat or hood covering it would grant perception checks to notice the glowing rune on the casters head. Make-up does not conceal the rune.
Why does everyone want to nerf the summoner? The summoner and Eidolon have a GLOW RUNE on their forehead. Many intelligent creatures would be able to make a check that would say. "Oh, that big scary beast and that guy in the back have the same shape on their head, I bet if I kill the squishy caster the big scary beast will go away too!" At least, that is how I always let the party/NPCs handle summoners.
To be fair, I don't allow the rune to be concealed in a mundane way like the book allows. A hat or hood covering it would grant perception checks to notice the glowing rune on the casters head. Make-up does not conceal the rune.
So you do not allow the rune to be concealed while it is allowed by the rules... which is kinda like a nerf too..
By the way, the summoner is not so much a weakness, they have decent HD, decent BAB and can easily have a very good AC, the eidolon is an ever present bodyguard making him less than an easy target.
I do not need to have to nerf the summoner, I just do not allow them in my game as written, I am very willing to discuss what it would take to allow them though. To be fair I disallow quite a few things in my games to keep things interesting, there is a lot more I would rewrite if I had the time to do so.
What then ? to allow them.Why does everyone want to nerf the summoner? The summoner and Eidolon have a GLOW RUNE on their forehead. Many intelligent creatures would be able to make a check that would say. "Oh, that big scary beast and that guy in the back have the same shape on their head, I bet if I kill the squishy caster the big scary beast will go away too!" At least, that is how I always let the party/NPCs handle summoners.
To be fair, I don't allow the rune to be concealed in a mundane way like the book allows. A hat or hood covering it would grant perception checks to notice the glowing rune on the casters head. Make-up does not conceal the rune.
So you do not allow the rune to be concealed while it is allowed by the rules... which is kinda like a nerf too..
By the way, the summoner is not so much a weakness, they have decent HD, decent BAB and can easily have a very good AC, the eidolon is an ever present bodyguard making him less than an easy target.
I do not need to have to nerf the summoner, I just do not allow them in my game as written, I am very willing to discuss what it would take to allow them though. To be fair I disallow quite a few things in my games to keep things interesting, there is a lot more I would rewrite if I had the time to do so.
One of the most broken things is the size, it is too cheap or too good, the strength bonus can be halved.
Pounce should be more expensive.
The natural armor boost should just boost 1 AC.
There are also plenty of powers that are too expensive.
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Bigger con bonus brings about many more issues than it solves. Consider some cases like fort saves, fort drain, and also some feats like fast healer.I mean, instead of the synth Eidolon adding X hit-dice to the melded summoner, I'd scale up the con bonus of whatever form he's wearing, so, e.g. Biped didn't have base stats that overwrite the summoner's own, but instead grant +2 Str, +2Dex, +4 Con (or whatever)...
That's exactly what I'm telling you is the problem.
say at the point the Eidolon should be providing 50 tempt hp (lvl 13) what would you do increase their con by +8? now their fort save is +4 better, if they have fast healer, they now heal 2 more hp per heal etc. Their ability to be con drained just went up by quite a bit.
Temp hp is the best way to do it.