Druids fall when they teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).
What if I were to Brain Drain a Druid and used it's Lingistic check to learn Druidic.
Or seek thoughts or any other the other ways to get information out of a person's mind to learn Druidic.
What if I gave a Druid a message in Druidic and asked him to translate it for me. When he did I used the translated message as a base to learn Druidic.
There are many was to learn a language form someone without them meaning to. Some of them could even be done in combat. Does that make a Druid. If it does then Druids are easier to make fall then paladin. I wonder why more people don't try it.
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Because most people aren't a&@*&!+s looking to dick over their players?
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Because someone sucking the information out of your brain is them learning the language from you, not you teaching it to them.
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I'm not sure if any of those are enough to learn the entire language of a peoples who live in the forest. Think of how hard it would be to learn latin with just a small bit. You don't even know what alphebet they use. I've never even seen druidic come up in a game! Its also a pretty evil act and doesn't serve much of a purpose beyond a plot device...
I had a DM do it once actually. Was a damsel in distress moment. Save the halfling druid from the clutches of the evil king. He needed it for some macguffin that was written in dozens of rare languages. The game broke before anything happened though.
And yes, most people don't actively go out of their way to make people fall unless they feel like being mean or think its a "great roleplaying" moment. Theres also not much of a reason to make a druid fall that I know of, while paladins are bound to be the goodliest of goodly good guys.
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Because most people aren't a$~**$#s looking to dick over their players?
+1 to this and also a Druid knows the rules about teaching his language to others and wouldn't do it. You tricking someone into providing a translation is a far cry from him teaching you a language.
Also I assume that druids would find out and look to end the non-druid's life who learned their secret language.
Actually I was thinking about doing it to an evil NPC that we are being forced to work with as a contingence. I like to be prepared.
Because most people aren't a+#%+!&s looking to dick over their players?
This.
Actually I was thinking about doing it to an evil NPC that we are being forced to work with as a contingence. I like to be prepared.
Forcing someone to fall is still on the evil end of the scale. If you somehow torture him into giving you his language I guess he would fall... but thats not usually something you want to do,.
Just use Dominate Person/Monster and hope he fails both will saves. A rod of Persistent Spell would help.
Not that hight level and enchainment is a banded school.
Its prohibited in pathfinder unless you nabbed thasilonian specialist in which case it becomes forbidden. Wording is important.
Honestly, you're better off just throwing the druid in armor. Or something.
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Armor doesn't make him fall, just shuts off his powers for a day.
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Nowhere in there do I see "The Druid taught this guy this language".
Your fall scenario is invalid.
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I thought this thread was going to turn out to be a parody of all the Paladin alignment threads. I always thought it was kind of a double-standard that Paladins have to be on the lookout for circumstances to make them fall, but other classes with alignment restrictions don't. That in mind, trying to engineer the fall of someone other than a Paladin might be a refreshing change of pace, and an interesting thought experiment.
Druids fall if they cease to properly venerate nature, right? Well, if he's traveling with you, perhaps you could offer to take him to the tavern where you all spend your downtime and buy him a drink or two... and then when you've got him in a good mood, offer to take him out to see the sights of the city. A night at the theater, a glass of some fine wine, a stop by the pawn shop to make a few Appraise checks and maybe trade those old druid's robes for something more in-style... you know, everything the city has to offer. If that's not "falling into corruption" I don't know what is.
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Appreciating the city =/= Ceasing to revere nature.
Try again (and again).
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There was a specific situation where a druid was under some sort of compulsion to teach a player druidic in a PFS scenario. I can't remember what it was, but I've had it explained to me twice, months apart (and I still can't remember this very valuable information), and it made sense each time that it could be done.
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Appreciating the city =/= Ceasing to revere nature.
Try again (and again).
That's the key-- this is a gradual process. You have to TEMPT this guy-- SEDUCE him with the pleasures of life in the big city. Make him WANT to give up the birds and the bees for this new life you've showed him.
It may take some time (and some money [and possibly a Charm Person spell]) but your GM is probably more likely to give you this than "I Brain Drain him and try to learn Druidic out of his brain".
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That's the key-- this is a gradual process. You have to TEMPT this guy-- SEDUCE him with the pleasures of life in the big city. Make him WANT to give up the birds and the bees for this new life you've showed him.
Its possible to live in the city and still revere nature. Revering nature isn't the same as living in the forest. Now if he decides to start burning down forest for entertainment we might have a bit more of an issue.
You may as well have fun with it. Capture the druid and make him wear a tin foil hat.
Deputize the non-lawful Barbarian.
Thwart the lawful Monk with a No Trespassing sign outside the dungeon.
A Druid can't TEACH you his language.
Doesn't mean you can't learn it through deceit, trickery, magic or some other means.
Everything in the OP is learning through deception, not having a Druid set down and teach you the language.
I learned it from a teacher and I learned it from looking over someones shoulder are two entirely different things.
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What's with all those threads? I mean there's not a single day where I don't see a "How can I make X fall?" thread here on the forum.
I'm just waiting for "How can I make a fighter lose his bonus feats?" and "How can I force a rogue to sneak attack himself?", pretty much all other classes have been covered already I think.
"How can I force a rogue to sneak attack himself?"
I'm thinking bully style stop hitting yourself except it's "Stop stabbing yourself".
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I find the easiest way to force a druid to fall is by using a trip attack.
"Oh, you're a Ranger? You botched a Handle Animal check; your Tiger companion is now hostile. Roll initiative, Siegfried."I know I shouldn't laugh... but I did.
Good thing that doesn't work...
How do you get a fighter to lose all his bonus feats anyway? My first idea was to break his weapon... Well that does it actually.
"Oh, you're a Ranger? You botched a Handle Animal check; your Tiger companion is now hostile. Roll initiative, Siegfried."I know I shouldn't laugh... but I did.Good thing that doesn't work...
How do you get a fighter to lose all his bonus feats anyway? My first idea was to break his weapon... Well that does it actually.
That tactic works pretty well against any martial class except the monk. And then instead you sunder his amulet of mighty fists.
I think trying to force others to fall and break oaths is a chaotic evil act.
I think trying to force others to fall and break oaths is a chaotic evil act.
Certainly chaotic but moral aspect depends upon actual motivation: for the lulz? Mostly chaotic neutral, unless the fall is also directly harmful to the victim (like, your former comrades will actively hunt you to destroy you). Trying to make an evil cleric fall from favor with his deity to stop his campaign of genocide might be good (but still chaotic-ish) deed.
I find the easiest way to force a druid to fall is by using a trip attack.
+2
"Oh, you're a Bard? Well, in this country, entertainment is outlawed so singing, dancing, and acting are punishable by death. Have fun on the campaign."Footloose as a Pathfinder campaign anyone?
Kevin Bacon has a thing for characters that play with the rules and are prone to fall... Footlose (Chaotic Good Bard), Flatliners (Chaotic Good Alchemist participating in breaking the rules) Sleepers (Lawful Evil falling to Chaotic Evil)...
hmm atonement is what 8000 gold? Might be a worth while investment for the party to get a party language they can be pretty sure whomever they are fighting will not know.
hmm atonement is what 8000 gold? Might be a worth while investment for the party to get a party language they can be pretty sure whomever they are fighting will not know.
One thing that always gets me: Atonement specifically mentions it can be used for multiple classes, which implies that it should be. So, it could be used for a monk, for instance.
It is also relatively cost-free if the action was forced: "If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you."
No, I am not somehow saying that jerkness is a good thing. A DM might still insist the druid pay the base NPC caster cost though, if there's no cleric, or other druid.
That a druid can cast this spell, and that they can fall, as well as the mention of usage by other classes, indicates it was meant to be used for them as well.
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I've never understood why people think paladins are at bigger risk of falling than any other divine caster. They all get their power from a Higher Power, and if they do stuff that The Management isn't happy with, they get cut off. It's just as harsh on clerics and druids; the rules which you must not violate are different, not any less.
That said, I prefer running it with warning signs: minor acts that are "not nice" get punished with bad dreams, intermittent failure of class features for a while; rather than wait until a monumental sin happens to necessitate Atonement.
For example: a paladin behaves a bit badly, so his deity revokes Disease Immunity for a while and inflicts the common cold on him (no save). After a few hundred Hail Maries he gets his powers back, and this time he'll be more careful.
Likewise, a minor transgression for a druid might result in a wildshape that looks a bit mangy, with scruffy fur or lackluster plumage; warning signs.
Anytime you "fall" its a question of morality. You are not guilty of commiting an act that makes you fall if you are duped, forced against your will or if the information is some how stolen from your mind.
Its about willfully breaking the tenets of your faith...not about being tricked, brainwashed, or forced through other means.
The rules on 'falling' are there to signify that your powers come with certain guidelines you should strive to live by, and that they can be revoked if you stray too far from the 'right' path. They're not an ultimate vulnerability to be exploited by your enemies.
...or the DM, for that matter.
Delilah did it to Samson. There's literary precedent.
Deus ex machina is also literary precedant. Doesn't mean its exciting or fun for every player. You can break every class if you wanted too. Doesn't mean you should.
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Delilah did it to Samson. There's literary precedent.Deus ex machina is also literary precedant. Doesn't mean its exciting or fun for every player. You can break every class if you wanted too. Doesn't mean you should.
I was responding to this:
That said, I strongly feel that setting out to get a character to fall is at best metagaming, and at worst being a jerk. In my book, no one, PC or NPC, should set out thinking 'what can I do to make that guy's god abandon him so that he'll be less powerful in a fight', because there's no way they should be able to anticipate a god's reaction like that. Okay, if an NPC enchants a paladin and gets him to kill innocents he is apparently supposed to fall - but the NPC was presumably doing that to mess with the paladin, not to make him weaker in combat. If he was, that sounds like metagaming to me.
And that's basically exactly what Delilah set out to do.
Whether it's good gameplay is another matter. Personally I think if the PCs want to sabotage a sketchy NPC this way, it's fine; as a GM you know your NPCs will end up broken and abused after all, it's just a question how sadistic the players will be.
Against PCs... far trickier. It shouldn't happen often, but it can be an interesting plot element that someone is trying to make a PC fall. I mean, they're trying to kill you all the time; it's not like you were expecting villains to play nice, right?
However, just like attempting to kill a PC, it shouldn't be a foregone conclusion, more like a challenge for the PCs to overcome. So while the villain is doing his utmost to succeed in making the PC fall, the GM is making sure it's not a foregone conclusion, and that the PC has a fair shot at evading the villain's intrigues. After all, the GM is on the side of everyone having fun, not against the players; but that includes making it tense and exciting through danger to the PCs.