Have you received your Reaper Bones Kickstarter reward?


Miniatures

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Dennis Baker wrote:
Shifty wrote:

Yay. Not.

Wasn't theilled with todays update.

At least they finally gave a somewhat square answer about delivery timing.

Exactly. After mulling it over, I'm glad they actually announced what was going on. It also shows the scale of the project - it's easy enough to say 2,000,000+ mini's but to think about the logisitics it's quite mind-boggling. To get thousands of parcels delivered in a couple of months would be tough.


I had a feeling that since so much of this depended upon China that it wouldn't all go according to plan. No wonder they wanted to move the production of this stuff to the states.

Sovereign Court

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pres man wrote:
Yeah, I did catch that they said that it was 3-6 weeks (so counting next week 4-7 weeks) to get to our docks, not to get to the warehouse. So an additional x weeks on top of that for customs.

"Our dock" means their warehouse loading dock.


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Reaperbyran from the Reaper messageboards wrote:

I'd like to post the timeline as I understood it, and as we posted about it when we began shipping:

**Expected timeline**

~may 25: Shipments begin -> March 30: Next container (A) ships, to arrive late April -> April 15:next container (B) ships to arrive early-mid May -> Late April, Container A in hand, resume shipments after ReaperCon; ALSO final container ( C ) ships to arrive late May -> Early may, ship next phase, using Container B -> Late May: Container C in hand, complete shipping, with an understanding that Early June might be needed for some processing, but we'd know more once we started.

**Actual timeline**

Late April, Container B did not arrive as expected. Customs was the delay, so we held our breath and crossed our fingers and waited for it to arrive, when it was clear that we needed to explain the delay that we had genuinely hoped would not exist, we posted an update. People were angry. Then the Manifest or Container C, which has shipped, did not include all of the items we were missing (this was late last week). We inquired, and discovered that, due to the size of the models, Container C would need to be made into additional containers. A revised schedule was requested, and when one was given, a new update was posted (yesterday). Again, people were angry.

As of this time, Container A is in hand, B & C are on the water, and D & E ship with a window of May 17-21. That's within the week, and I consider that to be good news - much better than the vague "soon" we'd been getting and repeating. We gave the latter date, assuming delays, although to be fair I don't think the earlier date changes timetables much. I'm not sure there's anything we could have possibly done differently. We acted in good faith on the information we had, and continue to do so.

tl;dr version - they gave the best updates they could given the (spotty & vague) info they were being handed by the shippers.

Of course feel free to dispute all of this as it is just what they *say* they did we don't have photographic & notarized proof afterall *rolleyes*


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Good news is, the figs are coming, finally.


Robert Hawkshaw wrote:
pres man wrote:
Yeah, I did catch that they said that it was 3-6 weeks (so counting next week 4-7 weeks) to get to our docks, not to get to the warehouse. So an additional x weeks on top of that for customs.
"Our dock" means their warehouse loading dock.

So 3-6 weeks includes customs & the transport to their warehouse?


Newest prediction:

Bryan Stiltz wrote:
My estimates now include unknowable variables like Customs delays, so I have predictions ranging best case to worst case, Best Case for orders to be 100% complete is July 4th weekend, worst Case is July 14th, as close as I can calculate. so yeah, assuming 2 months is realistic, although sooner is certainly possible.


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It is good to have some news, I just wished it was good news. :)

My fault though, I started with Vampire, but then just clicked 'yes please' to everything. No good deed goes unpunished! :p

Sovereign Court

Shifty wrote:

It is good to have some news, I just wished it was good news. :)

My fault though, I started with Vampire, but then just clicked 'yes please' to everything. No good deed goes unpunished! :p

Pretty much exactly my thoughts/feelings.

It makes me wonder from the other direction: if a Kickstarter project like this had a delivery estimate of 12-16 months after the KS finished, would that put you off?

edit = that's a general question, not aimed specifically at Shifty.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

GeraintElberion wrote:
Shifty wrote:

It is good to have some news, I just wished it was good news. :)

My fault though, I started with Vampire, but then just clicked 'yes please' to everything. No good deed goes unpunished! :p

Pretty much exactly my thoughts/feelings.

It makes me wonder from the other direction: if a Kickstarter project like this had a delivery estimate of 12-16 months after the KS finished, would that put you off?

edit = that's a general question, not aimed specifically at Shifty.

Wouldn't put me off. I'd actually consider it a reasonable and honest estimate, and give the company in question props for their integrity.

Besides, if I can back a Kickstarter for a video game that I know will take at least 2 years to develop, I can back a physical product I get a year later, easily.


Don't just blindly trust whatever they write. Research the people behind it, research the industry, etc.

Kickstarter is not just a preorder system.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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"Kickstarter is not a preorder system."

If more people bothered to understand this, crowdsourcing would be in a much better state.

Mind, I trust Reaper. I backed them because I've been buying their products for years, and I thought their proposal as noted on the Kickstarter was well written. The only problem they had with their date was that they severely underestimated the number of backers they were going to get--or that they were going to hit so many stretch goals they were going to have to keep out-topping themselves with number of minis produced. And that's just a lesson to take to the future... probably with Kickstarters, better to give a generous estimate of time rather than a conservative one. If you say, "We'll get everything shipped out by next year," and then it turns out you manage to get everything shipped out in three months, people are impressed by your ability to beat deadlines and deliver. Do the opposite however, and people will just be disappointed and less likely to support the next venture.

But yes, people who think Kickstarter is just another way of preoordering products do not understand it at all.


If Reaper had marketed this as "Gives us some money so we can make some new molds and maybe if we get enough money we will get some production ability out our source. We might sometime in the future feel generous and send our backers some kind of gift as a thanks." Then I might buy the whole, "It isn't a preordering system." And of course it wouldn't have been nearly successful either.

It was successful because Reaper did market it as a preorder system. "Give us X money and we will give you A amount of stuff. Give us extra Y money and we will give you in addition B amount of stuff." I mean the entire add-on system is a preorder system in its purest sense.

Also, it has been noted that Reaper specifically set the bar low (for them) at $30,000 and that they were really thinking it would reach $1 million and had planned for it to reach as high as $4 million.

Reaper as late as February (6 months after the Kickstarter ended) was still saying they believed that the March deadline was possible.


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Ever since I backed the Elevation Dock on KS and got to use it a whole two months before upgrading to an iPhone 5, I've never expected any project to ship on time--particularly if the words "record breaking" get used in their updates.

I'm happy to wait. I've already seen the quality of the miniatures from a few of my friends who picked their sets up from ReaperCon so I know I'm getting a good product.


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GeraintElberion wrote:
It makes me wonder from the other direction: if a Kickstarter project like this had a delivery estimate of 12-16 months after the KS finished, would that put you off?

It didn't stop me from backing the Pathfinder On Line Kickstarter. It closed in mid Jan 2013 with an estimated delivery date of June 2014.


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pres man wrote:

If Reaper had marketed this as "Gives us some money so we can make some new molds and maybe if we get enough money we will get some production ability out our source. We might sometime in the future feel generous and send our backers some kind of gift as a thanks." Then I might buy the whole, "It isn't a preordering system." And of course it wouldn't have been nearly successful either.

It was successful because Reaper did market it as a preorder system. "Give us X money and we will give you A amount of stuff. Give us extra Y money and we will give you in addition B amount of stuff." I mean the entire add-on system is a preorder system in its purest sense.

Well, that's just it.

If it wasn't marketed as a preorder system, then these enormous preorders wouldn't exist.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of pledges to this Kickstarter weren't altruistic donations of funds by folks who would not expect, but be pleasantly surprised if they actually received rewards.

Kickstarter is pretty clear in their Terms of Service. Project creators are expected to deliver what they promise, or refund if they can't.

So, given the marketing and the KS ToS, yeah - this WAS a preorder.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Quote:

"Kickstarter is not a preorder system."

"Kickstarter is not Amazon"

Regardless of what you call the relationship, Reaper took people's money with the promise of future delivery of product. That's a customer relationship of some sort or another. As a customer who has prepaid for a product, there is an expectation of reasonable communication about delivery timing.

Being late is understandable. Communicating it terribly and in a mis-leading manner is far less so.


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Dennis Baker wrote:
Quote:

"Kickstarter is not a preorder system."

"Kickstarter is not Amazon"

Regardless of what you call the relationship, Reaper took people's money with the promise of future delivery of product. That's a customer relationship of some sort or another. As a customer who has prepaid for a product, there is an expectation of reasonable communication about delivery timing.

Being late is understandable. Communicating it terribly and in a mis-leading manner is far less so.

I understand why you'd think this is true. Kickstarter can feel like a normal website where you buy things from someone.

Except that isn't exactly what is going on. You can claim it is until your blue in the face, but that doesn't make your viewpoint a reality.

You are providing money for someone to start a business, or complete a project. In return, they're going to give you some stuff, once that business is up and running, or the project is completed.

KS avoids the term investor, because you don't get a fiduciary return on the money you put into the project. So they use the term backer.

There plenty of worse cracks in the system showing than this project. Here's a project that pretty much died.

The KS funds have all been spent. The project creator is now digging into his own pocket to supply refunds, but you have to contact him directly and he has to pay pal it to you. I don't know what his exact financial situation is, but if he's out of cash in his pocket, you're out of luck on your refund. You could take him to court over it I guess.

Kickstarter is not a preorder site, regardless of how much it might appear to actually be one, or how much you wish it were one.


GeraintElberion wrote:
It makes me wonder from the other direction: if a Kickstarter project like this had a delivery estimate of 12-16 months after the KS finished, would that put you off?

I'd have still gone in on it, as there have been a few I have kicked that had really long delivery dates (games) so I don't mind the wait, I just don't like it when I am given one date, and the delivery date is significantly later. On a projected seven month completion time, I'd exepct my items in April, but when they wont be here until Aug or Sept, then that's a year, almost double the expected timeframe. Had they just said a year from the get go then I still would have signed up and not been as irritated about it as I am now :p.

The Exchange

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Received this on Tuesday from Reaper:
"We are currently waiting on only 4 more shipments (Containers) from China, the last of which should be leaving China about one week from today!
It normally takes 3-6 weeks from ship date to arrive at our dock, with 5 weeks being the Average.

As things arrive over the next few weeks we will be able to resume shipping orders, but we are thinking that the bulk of your orders will be waiting for that last shipment to arrive.

We appreciate your patience and support throughout this process!

~Ed"

Just putting it out there, and I am still very happy with this whole deal. I didn't expect it to be here at a certain time, I knew the timeframe was an estimate.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Irontruth wrote:
Dennis Baker wrote:
Quote:

"Kickstarter is not a preorder system."

"Kickstarter is not Amazon"

Regardless of what you call the relationship, Reaper took people's money with the promise of future delivery of product. That's a customer relationship of some sort or another. As a customer who has prepaid for a product, there is an expectation of reasonable communication about delivery timing.

Being late is understandable. Communicating it terribly and in a mis-leading manner is far less so.

I understand why you'd think this is true. Kickstarter can feel like a normal website where you buy things from someone.

Except that isn't exactly what is going on. You can claim it is until your blue in the face, but that doesn't make your viewpoint a reality.

You are providing money for someone to start a business, or complete a project. In return, they're going to give you some stuff, once that business is up and running, or the project is completed.

KS avoids the term investor, because you don't get a fiduciary return on the money you put into the project. So they use the term backer.

There plenty of worse cracks in the system showing than this project. Here's a project that pretty much died.

The KS funds have all been spent. The project creator is now digging into his own pocket to supply refunds, but you have to contact him directly and he has to pay pal it to you. I don't know what his exact financial situation is, but if he's out of cash in his pocket, you're out of luck on your refund. You could take him to court over it I guess.

Kickstarter is not a preorder site, regardless of how much it might appear to actually be one, or how much you wish it were one.

I think of Kickstarter as 21st century patronage.


Irontruth wrote:

There plenty of worse cracks in the system showing than this project. Here's a project that pretty much died.

The KS funds have all been spent. The project creator is now digging into his own pocket to supply refunds, but you have to contact him directly and he has to pay pal it to you. I don't know what his exact financial situation is, but if he's out of cash in his pocket, you're out of luck on your refund. You could take him to court over it I guess.

Kickstarter is not a preorder site, regardless of how much it might appear to actually be one, or how much you wish it were one.

Now what does that remind me of? Certainly not any kind of preorder situation.


Kickstarter and long delivery times is a given - especially when the $ value blows up like this and they end up with a whole heap of stuff that wasn't originally in the plans.

I've backed in excess of 50 odd KS, and I'm still waiting on delivery from the first that I ever threw money at (which is now 12 months past original estimated delivery date)... but that hasn't stopped me going in.

The delivery time issues don't bother me at all, the minis are coming... and Reaper is doing an adequate job of communication about same.


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pres man wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

There plenty of worse cracks in the system showing than this project. Here's a project that pretty much died.

The KS funds have all been spent. The project creator is now digging into his own pocket to supply refunds, but you have to contact him directly and he has to pay pal it to you. I don't know what his exact financial situation is, but if he's out of cash in his pocket, you're out of luck on your refund. You could take him to court over it I guess.

Kickstarter is not a preorder site, regardless of how much it might appear to actually be one, or how much you wish it were one.

Now what does that remind me of? Certainly not any kind of preorder situation.

Do your research on people and the industry.

Don't just go "ooh, shiny!"

Doing research means:
1) less likely to get burned (but it can still happen)
2) less likely to be surprised when setbacks happen, because you'll know what kind of setbacks can happen

KS is not a handholding site.

You're putting your financial information into a website that has zero policy/infrastructure on returns and zero mechanisms of enforcement. The company that owns KS will do NOTHING to help you obtain your promised goods/services, or refund your money. NOTHING. It is up to you to protect yourself.


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Irontruth speaks the truth - research is key to identifying which kickstarters are going to be better gambles. You can look for facebook pages, websites, whether this is project 1 or 2 or more, comments, interaction with supporters, realism shown in the video / page, etc, etc.

The other key is to completely ignore the little box that shows estimated delivery. Even for those which have well defined systems in place for delivery can be held up for unforseen reasons that blow that estimate out of the water.

And my Rule #1, which I see too often:
1. Never pledge for anything on Kickstarter that you want in a time-sensitive fashion.

ie. for a birthday present this year, or anniversary, or etc. You will nine times out of ten be horribly disappointed by the expectation that you'll get it in time.


Irontruth wrote:
pres man wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

There plenty of worse cracks in the system showing than this project. Here's a project that pretty much died.

The KS funds have all been spent. The project creator is now digging into his own pocket to supply refunds, but you have to contact him directly and he has to pay pal it to you. I don't know what his exact financial situation is, but if he's out of cash in his pocket, you're out of luck on your refund. You could take him to court over it I guess.

Kickstarter is not a preorder site, regardless of how much it might appear to actually be one, or how much you wish it were one.

Now what does that remind me of? Certainly not any kind of preorder situation.

Do your research on people and the industry.

Don't just go "ooh, shiny!"

Doing research means:
1) less likely to get burned (but it can still happen)
2) less likely to be surprised when setbacks happen, because you'll know what kind of setbacks can happen

KS is not a handholding site.

You're putting your financial information into a website that has zero policy/infrastructure on returns and zero mechanisms of enforcement. The company that owns KS will do NOTHING to help you obtain your promised goods/services, or refund your money. NOTHING. It is up to you to protect yourself.

Isn't what you are saying true of a lot of independent preorder situations? Such as the one the link I provided was discussing. So if that is the case, why make such a big deal of saying kickstarter isn't a preorder site. As if just because something is a preorder that somehow protects you from being screwed over. It doesn't, and never has.


Compare it to dealing with Paizo. You can preorder books from Paizo. Sure, the books are each different, and sometimes different people work on them, but overall Paizo has a process. They've worked most of the kinks out of their system, they know their suppliers well, they know how long everything takes to accomplish.

But then Paizo wants to start up a car company. They don't have an established history making cars. They make have really good ideas and be good at designing cars, but they don't have relationships with their suppliers. They don't know from experience how long it can take to get certain parts or materials. They're going to have to learn how to do every aspect of that kind of business, you're going to have to wait until they do.

The majority of preordering that goes on, for the majority of products in most industries falls into the first category. Established companies promising products that they are familiar producing. Established companies don't use Kickstarter as their preorder system, because they'd have to give KS 5% off the top. Paizo would never do their established book lines through KS, because that would wreck havoc on their profit margin.

Most of what is happening on Kickstarter is the second paragraph.

Technically, it is preordering on Kickstarter, but it isn't even close to anything you'd do, either at Paizo, Gamestop, Amazon, or any other major retailer.

Most businesses have an established method/process for refunding you your money and under what conditions. None of that exists on Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't have anyone to help you with customer service, unlike Amazon, or even Paizo. Amazon handles KS payments, but even then it isn't necessarily smooth and can be a hassle for both sides.


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Well since Kickstarters are crowdsourcing, there should be more transparency, queries and updates from companies using it as such.

In the paizo/Car analogy; they would ask more for help from backers about materials, sourcing/suppliers - basically use the backers not just for financial help but knowledge.


Irontruth wrote:
Kickstarter is not a preorder site, regardless of how much it might appear to actually be one, or how much you wish it were one.

Kickstarters marketed as preorders are preorders regardless of how much you might wish to tell people they're not.

Itontruth wrote:
The majority of preordering that goes on, for the majority of products in most industries falls into the first category. Established companies promising products that they are familiar producing. Established companies don't use Kickstarter as their preorder system, because they'd have to give KS 5% off the top. Paizo would never do their established book lines through KS, because that would wreck havoc on their profit margin.

Paizo might not, but, then, explain why plenty of other established gaming companies are using Kickstarter as their preorder system?

Really, it has nothing to do with Kickstarter taking a cut of their profits.

It has to do with risk vs. reward on behalf of the creator.

Traditional preorders traditionally take more time than a Kickstarter, and don't have the hype factor.

With a Kickstarter, the creator doesn't have to assume any of the risk themselves - they're fully compensated up front.

Itontruth wrote:
Technically, it is preordering on Kickstarter, but it isn't even close to anything you'd do, either at Paizo, Gamestop, Amazon, or any other major retailer.

Because major retailers have resources that most project creators on Kickstarter don't.

Itontruth wrote:
Most businesses have an established method/process for refunding you your money and under what conditions. None of that exists on Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't have anyone to help you with customer service, unlike Amazon, or even Paizo. Amazon handles KS payments, but even then it isn't necessarily smooth and can be a hassle for both sides.

And your point here? Kickstarter is the middleman. We know this. Kickstarter's Terms of Service are clear - they're not liable for anything, it all falls on the project creator, who, per the terms, IS responsible for delivering what they promised you, or refunding your pledge amount.

That very clause right there kills your argument that it's not a preorder system.

Kickstarter could have just as made some kind of statement to the effect that all projects come with a measure of risk, and that, since Kickstarter is not a preorder site, a project may experience failure, and you may be out your funds.

But they didn't do that. And project creators, by and large, utilize the site as a preorder marketing system that gets them all of their funds up front, rather than having to assume any aspect of financial burden.

If, as you and others try to insist, that Kickstarter is some kind of project speculation system, where folks throw money at something HOPING it happens, that clause wouldn't be there.


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Brian E. Harris wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Kickstarter is not a preorder site, regardless of how much it might appear to actually be one, or how much you wish it were one.

Kickstarters marketed as preorders are preorders regardless of how much you might wish to tell people they're not.

Itontruth wrote:
The majority of preordering that goes on, for the majority of products in most industries falls into the first category. Established companies promising products that they are familiar producing. Established companies don't use Kickstarter as their preorder system, because they'd have to give KS 5% off the top. Paizo would never do their established book lines through KS, because that would wreck havoc on their profit margin.

Paizo might not, but, then, explain why plenty of other established gaming companies are using Kickstarter as their preorder system?

Really, it has nothing to do with Kickstarter taking a cut of their profits.

It has to do with risk vs. reward on behalf of the creator.

Traditional preorders traditionally take more time than a Kickstarter, and don't have the hype factor.

With a Kickstarter, the creator doesn't have to assume any of the risk themselves - they're fully compensated up front.

Itontruth wrote:
Technically, it is preordering on Kickstarter, but it isn't even close to anything you'd do, either at Paizo, Gamestop, Amazon, or any other major retailer.

Because major retailers have resources that most project creators on Kickstarter don't.

Itontruth wrote:
Most businesses have an established method/process for refunding you your money and under what conditions. None of that exists on Kickstarter. Kickstarter doesn't have anyone to help you with customer service, unlike Amazon, or even Paizo. Amazon handles KS payments, but even then it isn't necessarily smooth and can be a hassle for both sides.
And your point here? Kickstarter is the middleman. We know this. Kickstarter's Terms of Service are clear - they're not liable for anything,...

Here's an interesting bit for you.

I have a different viewpoint and expectations of what happens on Kickstarter, than some of the other people in this thread. This different viewpoint and expectation has left me unsurprised and not at all frustrated.

Convince me that I would be better off with a viewpoint that left me surprised and frustrated.


Grrr... nothing yet.

I have a boon trade riding on these things..


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Starfinder Superscriber

Reading the comments on this KS is like reading YouTube comments. You just feel stupider when you do it. I swear, I'm just happy waiting for my giant order from Reaper, and I'm not losing sleep over when it arrives. I've backed a ton of kickstarter campaigns, and I just take the zen "it will arrive when it arrives" approach to receiving my rewards for helping a business expand (or try something different, or create games).


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Irontruth wrote:

Here's an interesting bit for you.

I have a different viewpoint and expectations of what happens on Kickstarter, than some of the other people in this thread. This different viewpoint and expectation has left me unsurprised and not at all frustrated.

Convince me that I would be better off with a viewpoint that left me surprised and frustrated.

I'm neither particularly surprised or frustrated at the moment.

I simply agree with folks that think there should be more communication on the matter of delays, and I disagree with folks that are trying to say that Kickstarter isn't (or hasn't been allowed to be co-opted into) a preorder system.

If you have no issue throwing money at folks and not expecting accountability or timely delivery, that's fine. More power to you.

But lambasting folks who do expect promised deliveries, who expect them to be delivered on the schedule that they were promised, and ultimately, who expect timely communication when those are not met? Shame on you.


All I know is,this has soured me on KS in general. Fool me once, I suppose.
Too bad I have already ordered from the Dwarvenforge KS. Here's hoping they don't screw up their delivery like Reaper has.
No more Kickstarters for me. Live and learn.


Brian E. Harris wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Here's an interesting bit for you.

I have a different viewpoint and expectations of what happens on Kickstarter, than some of the other people in this thread. This different viewpoint and expectation has left me unsurprised and not at all frustrated.

Convince me that I would be better off with a viewpoint that left me surprised and frustrated.

I'm neither particularly surprised or frustrated at the moment.

I simply agree with folks that think there should be more communication on the matter of delays, and I disagree with folks that are trying to say that Kickstarter isn't (or hasn't been allowed to be co-opted into) a preorder system.

If you have no issue throwing money at folks and not expecting accountability or timely delivery, that's fine. More power to you.

But lambasting folks who do expect promised deliveries, who expect them to be delivered on the schedule that they were promised, and ultimately, who expect timely communication when those are not met? Shame on you.

I don't throw my money at folks expecting nothing. I research the people and try to at least have some guesses on the how the industry process should work. I've had excellent results with my kickstarters.

For example, WotC's miniatures line, which is fairly similar to the Bones project, probably had a turnaround time of a minimum 4 months, but possibly as long as 6 months. But that is an established product line, with a system already in place. It's really not that surprising that a much smaller company trying to start their own similar line would take 12 months to get their product to market the first run, especially a run with this many variables.

I'm sorry other people bought into the pie-in-the-sky goal of delivery within 6 months. It was unrealistic of Reaper to make that promise, but it was also unrealistic to believe it IMO.

I agree that Reaper could have communicated more. I've never disagreed with that.


Bill Kirsch wrote:

All I know is,this has soured me on KS in general. Fool me once, I suppose.

Too bad I have already ordered from the Dwarvenforge KS. Here's hoping they don't screw up their delivery like Reaper has.
No more Kickstarters for me. Live and learn.

Bill - what in particular has soured you? - is it just the delay in receipt of the minis?

If it is just the delay then I would suggest being ready to gird your loins for similar disappointment on the Dwarven Forge KS. I'd say there is a fair chance that they'll not meet their time target.

In both cases though, rejoice as I'm sure you'd agree that from Reaper and Dwarven Forge the goods will eventually arrive and will be quality as advertised.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

On the other hand, I want you all to know that the Integrity JEM doll I ordered has shipped on time, and I will get it tomorrow.

This has nothing to do with Reaper or Kickstarter, except I'm glad I'll have space to display my Misfit before my apartment becomes filled with boxes of minis. And that at least something I have ordered has shipped and I am happy about it. ;)

Sczarni

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I still shake my head - I never saw any delivery estimates on add-ons during the kickstarter, only once the first shipment had come in.. and THAT is what is holding everything up (unless you're in Canada). Yes, Vampire pledges shipped out a few weeks later, but those with just vampire pledges and nothing else have their pledges.

Vampire Level + add-ons was not something with a delivery estimate on the front page of the kickstarter. so they are right on time.... That's just my view


Mark Sweetman wrote:
Bill Kirsch wrote:

All I know is,this has soured me on KS in general. Fool me once, I suppose.

Too bad I have already ordered from the Dwarvenforge KS. Here's hoping they don't screw up their delivery like Reaper has.
No more Kickstarters for me. Live and learn.

Bill - what in particular has soured you? - is it just the delay in receipt of the minis?

If it is just the delay then I would suggest being ready to gird your loins for similar disappointment on the Dwarven Forge KS. I'd say there is a fair chance that they'll not meet their time target.

In both cases though, rejoice as I'm sure you'd agree that from Reaper and Dwarven Forge the goods will eventually arrive and will be quality as advertised.

The ever increasing delay. March became April which became May which is likely to become June or July. If they had said "Summer 2013" I probably wouldn't have pledged because I'm not in the habit of giving money with no results for that long.

Both KS's I've back are excellent deals. That's why I backed them. But I expect companies to keep their commitments, included estimated delivery.

As far as Dwarven Forge is concerned, I guess that remains to be seen. If it is standard operating procedure to be consistently very late on Kickstarter, then KS is not for me. Thus, no additional backings.


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Bill - understood, and looking at it the way that you do then I'd suggest that kickstarter is indeed not the platform that you are looking for. There's nothing wrong with that, and as a consumer you can still enjoy the end result in the aftermarket of those companies that can follow through and deliver.

I wouldn't consider it necessarily 'standard operating procedure' to have delays, but more 'standard backer expectation'. All companies set up an expected delivery point based on pre-campaign expectations, and often it is an estimate based on not necessarily complete information. All companies strive to achieve said goal - but there are a myriad of tangible and reasonable reasons for not reaching them - eg. One playing card deck I supported had their entire run of cards mis-printed twice in a row through no fault of their own - and had to get the whole run shredded and printed again... twice.

Some of the campaigns I've gone in on have delivered on schedule, most have delivered within a reasonable delay of their original estimate (of which some do a better job of communicating than others) and there are only two complete basket cases that are over a year past their original estimate.

It is a flawed platform for many reasons... but in my opinion it is also an awesome platform for many reasons (I am an unashamed KS fanboi). But as intimated by Irontruth it does take a certain level of managing expectations to go through the process without getting too frustrated or upset by it - and it isn't for everyone.


My Flint and Tinder clothing items arrived on schedule. Their latest project for the 10-year hoodie did a clever thing for their backer tiers. Each one had a limit of something like 500 or 1000 orders and when that number was used up, they created a new tier at the same price with the same limit but with a new estimated delivery date. Early backers get their product faster and as the project gains popularity, expectations are managed.


A post from the comment section to the latest update:

Quote:

I'm a backer on Catan's gaming board, they are also late. They just posted an awesome post on lateness of Kickstarters, crowdfunding and such (including a paper by a statistician who details out the lateness of crowdfunding) here:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/trammel/the-official-settlers-of-catan- gaming-board/posts/483517
If you read nothing else, look at the chart on the page (delivery delays for large and small projects) as determined by products over/under 50k. - and this line:
As you can see, around 75% of projects raising over $50K were delayed on their estimated delivery dates by more than 3 months.
Lastly, from the post for the Catan board, they cite a blog post which contains the following:
"The focus on lateness within Kickstarter brings three problems.
First, it incentivizes creators to take shortcuts to hit their deadlines. As legendary game designer Shigeru Miyamoto recently said, "A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad.”
Second, it ignores what makes Kickstarter so unique: getting to watch a project come to life. The opportunity to see how something is made and to have a hand in its creation is a special thing. If a creator turns the creative process into a story they share with backers, delays don't have to be bad news.
Third, it presumes that Kickstarter is a store. Sure, it's unacceptable for a store to ship something late. But Kickstarter is not a store. The Estimated Delivery Date is the creator’s best guess at how things will go, and it’s made at a very early stage in the project’s life. "
If that doesn't unwind your shorts :), try listening to: [this speech] and apply the ideas to Reaper's staff and situation.


Bill Kirsch wrote:
Mark Sweetman wrote:
Bill Kirsch wrote:

All I know is,this has soured me on KS in general. Fool me once, I suppose.

Too bad I have already ordered from the Dwarvenforge KS. Here's hoping they don't screw up their delivery like Reaper has.
No more Kickstarters for me. Live and learn.

Bill - what in particular has soured you? - is it just the delay in receipt of the minis?

If it is just the delay then I would suggest being ready to gird your loins for similar disappointment on the Dwarven Forge KS. I'd say there is a fair chance that they'll not meet their time target.

In both cases though, rejoice as I'm sure you'd agree that from Reaper and Dwarven Forge the goods will eventually arrive and will be quality as advertised.

The ever increasing delay. March became April which became May which is likely to become June or July. If they had said "Summer 2013" I probably wouldn't have pledged because I'm not in the habit of giving money with no results for that long.

Both KS's I've back are excellent deals. That's why I backed them. But I expect companies to keep their commitments, included estimated delivery.

As far as Dwarven Forge is concerned, I guess that remains to be seen. If it is standard operating procedure to be consistently very late on Kickstarter, then KS is not for me. Thus, no additional backings.

I'll echo some of what Mark said.

I would recommend keeping an eye out on Kickstarter for you, but backing very, very rarely. Don't jump on the big projects that are already successful, instead use those to create wishlists for future purchases once those products actually come to market.

Instead, look for projects that you find interesting, but actually need help. Ones where they look less likely to receive funding and you feel willing to contribute to help ensure they do succeed, but more because you want them to succeed, than because you really, really want to have their product in hand.

As DQ mentioned a little further up, think of it more as 21st century patronage. Only put your money in when it's something you believe in.


I don't really mind the wait, though I was hoping to receive them in time for use in a big reunion game I'm running in a couple weeks, and I'll admit that I'll be a little disappointed if they don't show up in time. But, yeah, in my experience, Kickstarter projects don't usually deliver the goods in a timely fashion.


So, anybody get theirs in the past couple of weeks?
I am still waiting. Now I'm worried that they may come when I'm out of town in two weeks.
Sheesh.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Bill Kirsch wrote:

So, anybody get theirs in the past couple of weeks?

I am still waiting. Now I'm worried that they may come when I'm out of town in two weeks.
Sheesh.

If you don't have it yet, it's unlikely to get here until late June or more likely mid-July.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

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Irontruth wrote:
I agree that Reaper could have communicated more. I've never disagreed with that.

Huh?

When I made exactly this point you lambasted me with a 4 paragraph post.


...updates... would like updates...

They really need to have a counter, "Only xxx number to go!"


Or a rough %, so "XX% complete".

I know they are probably sat around twiddling their thumbs, awaiting the arrival of the mini's. However the occasional update could be nice, even if it's to say no news - look here's some painted mini's.

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