Are Halflings Offensive?


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Hi, this is my first post on this part of the messageboards but it has been something I have been thinking about a lot lately. I am contemplating the idea of not including the typical small player races in the campaign setting I am writing, prompted by Peter Dinklage's comments:

"I try not to read too much into it, but there's a bit of a bias, where you're thought of as a mystical creature, which is a bit absurd... I have a great sense of humor -- and a dark sense of humor -- about everything, but it is a bit narrow-minded sometimes, where if they have a dwarf character, the shoes have to curl up at the end, he has this inherent wisdom, he isn't sexual, all of that. You look at something like 'Snow White,' and each of the dwarves is just one thing -- this one sneezes, this one is angry, this one is tired. And that's sometimes still true for modern-day stories..."

It is not my intention to get people angry, hurt, or offended. I have a lot of respect for the Paizo community and its fans. I just want to hear peoples' opinions on this.


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A halfling or dwarf in the game is not a human little person.

Scarab Sages

I find halfings to be very offensive.

Gnomes, on the other hand, can be quite reasonable.


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Fairy tales include a lot of racial, social, and disability stereotypes. But if anyone is getting offended on behalf of fictional fantasy races, they need to find a better use of their time.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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I can imagine that if I were a little person, I might find it cool that there was a whole race of dwarves, and not only that, they were awesome!

Sczarni

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Dinklage has a realy god point, but I'm not sure it applies strongly to halflings in Golarion.

The concept of fantasy races is deeply rooted in folklore and mythology, and has a lot of complex elements going on in its expression.

Non-human races play off of traditional tropes associated with magical beings (gnomes, especially), and such beings are often traditionally portrayed as differing from humans in some striking physical manner. Sometimes this manner is in being strikingly smaller than most humans. Or resembling human children, or some such.

In Pathfinder, Gnomes are a lot more overtly magical beings, with their strange appearance and fey connection. They hew very close to the classical folklore style. To my mind, that makes them unproblematic. They're not "little people," they're weird creatures.

Halflings, being based on Tolkien's basically non-magical Hobbits, are a more interesting case. I can understand why one might apply Dinklage's criticism to them. On the other hand, maybe they're exactly an illustration of the opposite of what Dinklage is criticizing: they really *are* just normal people, except smaller. Maybe such things as "Halfling luck" or their unusual propensity for optimism are a bit problematic, though.

What would be interesting to me, perhaps, would be to build an actual human character with dwarfism in a setting that also has halflings, gnomes and dwarves, and explore the implications of people assuming that he's not a human based on his appearance.

Sovereign Court

Dinklage's problem isn't that small races exist; it's when they're not actually treated as people that takes issue. If you play a halfling character who has a well-rounded, believable personality, I'm sure that Mr. Dinklage would laud you. Just remember that being small only changes your body, not your mind.


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I get tired of seeing every halfling played like a kinder


Illeist wrote:
Dinklage's problem isn't that small races exist; it's when they're not actually treated as people that takes issue. If you play a halfling character who has a well-rounded, believable personality, I'm sure that Mr. Dinklage would laud you. Just remember that being small only changes your body, not your mind.

Being small doesn't change your mind. OTOH, halflings aren't human, so they shouldn't think like small humans. They're closer in many ways, so they might not be as different as dwarves or even more so gnomes, but they're still not human.


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More Peter Dinklage

Otoh, Paizo's depiction of goblins is offensive.

---

That's better. Should have went to youtube in the first place...


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I'm pretty tired of people who play kender as kender.


I can't find the quote at the time, but Tolkien made the hobbits short to represent their lacking in adventurousness (as a whole). He modeled them, he says, after the rural English folk. If anyone should be offended, it should be them, not little people.

As far as halflings go, they pretty much only inherited the physical description, not the dullness, of their literary ancestors.

Silver Crusade

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I don't understand why halflings would be offensive. Any more than orcs or pixies or unicorns.


Nymian Harthing wrote:
I don't understand why halflings would be offensive. Any more than orcs or pixies or unicorns.

^this^

Shadow Lodge

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Terquem wrote:
I get tired of seeing every halfling played like a kinder

Blame 3e. Until then, halflings were essentially hobbits. With 3e, they became watered-down kender wannabes.


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Dark sun had cannibalistic, psycho jungle halflings. That is pretty offensive.


My homebrew has gypsy-stereotype halflings. That's offensive and I should change it.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I only find them offensive when they aren't bathed regularly. All that extra foot hair really raises the bar on foot odot.

Sovereign Court

So far I've found them quite useful. My Chelaxian friends are right, I should get a couple when I settle down.

So far Ksenia's had two scenarios with halflings. One was a musket master who enjoyed shooting the bad guys she dropped with slumber, the other a halfling cavalier I've taken to calling 'Small but Mighty'*

*

Spoiler:
which also happens to be what the girls call my Chihuahua.

Sovereign Court

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Well, my halfling cleric of Cayden Cailean can get offensive ... usually after a long night of "worshipping" at the tavern. He has been known to spout off things such as

Spoiler:
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!

and
Spoiler:
EXPLOSIVE RUNES AGAIN! I can't believe you feel for that...

and
Spoiler:
"Oh, le' me tell ya, she has legs wha' go up t' here!" <raised his hand above his head>

"All right, you lot! I'm sicka this 'town' and alla th' crap what we've had t' deal with! I want answers and I want them now! You! You look like you have answers! Speak afore I kneecap ya right good!"

"I know Shalelu's yer sis, but d'ya think she and I could ever ..."

Yes, he's my character in Jade Regent ... spent a morning in Riddleport wandering around looking for his other boot before he realized he doesn't wear boots ... he also had great fun insulting an NPC by the name of Asvig ...

Scarab Sages

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zylphryx wrote:

Well, my halfling cleric of Cayden Cailean can get offensive ... usually after a long night of "worshipping" at the tavern. He has been known to spout off things such as

** spoiler omitted **
and
** spoiler omitted **
and
** spoiler omitted **

Which is why halfings should not be allow near liquor. They just cannot handle it.

Liberty's Edge

Of course halfings are offesive. They have real short tempers!


Sissyl wrote:
Dark sun had cannibalistic, psycho jungle halflings. That is pretty offensive.

We're effective, not offensive. Unless we're eating you alive. Although you can take some solace in being well-seasoned first. Of course, you might be a gibbering simpleton once the beetles get done with you.

In 3e speak, How to Serve Man was written on Athas in Halfling. ;)


My Drow harvest the soles of Halfling feet to make silent, padded footwear. The problem is that they are wasteful and dispose of the remaining parts of the Halflings - some people find wasting Halflings like this offensive.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

More seriously,

I'd find Golarion Ogres (actually based on Hillbilly sterotypes) more offensive than halflings/gnomes/dwarves/munchkins who aren't based on real life...

What the frak is the PC term these days?

And has Peter Dinklage read X factor?

Comic Tangent

Spoiler:
In a recent issue, Pip the troll was in a bar and people would ask if he was Peter Dinklage. He'd reply 'yes, yes I am' as a way to score. Now this is PAD, so it's his style of writing, but I find it funny in hindsight, that you have a fictional character playing at being a real actor, who commented he's upset at how fictional dwarves/gnomes/haflings/etc. are played. Full circle would be reached if he played Pip in Guardians of the Galaxy.


I would expect that most gamers understand that being a fantasy race is different from being a little person, but I've been surprised before, by Game of Thrones fans who don't understand why comparing Tyrion to Gimli is just ... absolutely, sbsurdly wrong on so many levels.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Not having read GoT (yes start booing now)...

Is Tyrion a mid-, er dwar- er little person? And not a Gimli style dwarf?


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White Wyrm wrote:

Hi, this is my first post on this part of the messageboards but it has been something I have been thinking about a lot lately. I am contemplating the idea of not including the typical small player races in the campaign setting I am writing, prompted by Peter Dinklage's comments:

"I try not to read too much into it, but there's a bit of a bias, where you're thought of as a mystical creature, which is a bit absurd... I have a great sense of humor -- and a dark sense of humor -- about everything, but it is a bit narrow-minded sometimes, where if they have a dwarf character, the shoes have to curl up at the end, he has this inherent wisdom, he isn't sexual, all of that. You look at something like 'Snow White,' and each of the dwarves is just one thing -- this one sneezes, this one is angry, this one is tired. And that's sometimes still true for modern-day stories..."

It is not my intention to get people angry, hurt, or offended. I have a lot of respect for the Paizo community and its fans. I just want to hear peoples' opinions on this.

Wow.....

....

I consider myself a progressive, but is this really where we're at now?

I find elves offensive to those who have displasia of the ears.


Matthew Morris wrote:

Not having read GoT (yes start booing now)...

Is Tyrion a mid-, er dwar- er little person? And not a Gimli style dwarf?

Hi Matthew,

Dont feel bad no one can read every fantasy novel ever released.

Tyrion "Half-Man" Lannister is a human midget from an extremely wealthy noble family. He is also an utter embarrasment to his Father, who feels his "deformity" is a sure sign that he is illegitimate, he just cannot prove it.

From a gaming perspective, he is probably a bard (or a Rogue).

Sovereign Court

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Artanthos wrote:
zylphryx wrote:

Well, my halfling cleric of Cayden Cailean can get offensive ... usually after a long night of "worshipping" at the tavern. He has been known to spout off things such as

** spoiler omitted **
and
** spoiler omitted **
and
** spoiler omitted **
Which is why halfings should not be allow near liquor. They just cannot handle it.

Quite the opposite. He can drink most under the table. He just gets more loose tongued when he does. And gets really strange ideas that may or not not (usually not) be good ideas.

Spoiler:

Why, it was his leading a "religious service" at the start of the campaign that led to the Great Goblin Hunt with crates of chickens in tow, each with their own little name tag, since, you know, goblins hate writing ... it made perfect sense at the time ... though all the PCs were "filled with the spirit" or just filled with spirits (tomayto/tomahto when it comes to a Cayden Cailean service).

Using the skeletons as puppets turned out to be a bad idea when they animated though ...


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Personally I always thought the fact that each of the "small" races in the CRB have +2CHA was because they were percieved as "cutesy" by humans.

Shouldn't Gnomes get +2 to Int? I mean 1/2lings are social and like to drink and eat together and they are good at adapting to the social environments of larger races so it sort of makes sense.

But gnomes are crazy erratic fey beings. Refugees from the First World, a whole other plane of existence. If anything they should have trouble interacting with other races. In fact in the CRB it says: "they typically travel alone or with temporary companions". How is that charismatic?

I usually houserule the +2cha for gnomes is +2Int instead.

My 2 cents.


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Charisma is a game term. It represents personality, not likability.


Thanks for those who have taken the time to write thoughtful responses.

I think the main point of contention is that if someone is playing a character that is 4'5" or shorter, he or she is playing something other than a human. Although I don't know anyone in my personal life with achondroplasia, I can try to see it from their perspective and understand how it could feel degrading.

I think Trinite has it right;

Trinite wrote:
What would be interesting to me, perhaps, would be to build an actual human character with dwarfism in a setting that also has halflings, gnomes and dwarves, and explore the implications of people assuming that he's not a human based on his appearance.

Maybe there could be an alternate racial trait for humans to make them small?

I have played halfling and dwarf characters in the past and I did not bring this up to be the politically correct police. I hadn't given this a whole lot of thought until now and it costs nothing to try to see where other people are coming from.


Matthew Morris wrote:

More seriously,

I'd find Golarion Ogres (actually based on Hillbilly sterotypes) more offensive than halflings/gnomes/dwarves/munchkins who aren't based on real life...

What the frak is the PC term these days?

And has Peter Dinklage read X factor?

Comic Tangent
** spoiler omitted **

Could be possible.


I can see why Peter finds it offensive. He wants to be taken seriously as an actor (and as a human being), and yet many of the roles available to him are "ewok" or "elf". I'd probably find the fantasy genre a bit offensive, as well.

The fantasy genre tends to assume that if you're below average or above average height you're some sort of mystical creature. Meanwhile it glosses over real-world dwarfism and gigantism (as if they didn't exist at all). That's a bit problematic and worth talking about.

I think we can all agree that our hobby should be as inclusive as possible. Those elements which make people feel excluded ought to be examined carefully.

That said, I'm sure there are little people that play the game and have no problem with it. Peter certainly doesn't speak for everyone.

An Aside: The term "little people" has always seemed to me to be more offensive than "dwarf". I mean, it sounds a bit condescending. Then again, there's nothing wrong with being little. I don't want to get offended on someone else's behalf, and by doing so patronize them, so I reserve judgment. Still, it doesn't sound right to me.


Terquem wrote:
I get tired of seeing every halfling played like a kinder

Yeah, it would get pretty offensive seeing little people played like children.

Now if you meant to say Kender, then I would also be prone to agree. It is rather offensive to see halfling posers imitating Kender, although I imagine Kender don't exactly like having their race misspelled either :P

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Detect Magic wrote:

I can see why Peter finds it offensive. He wants to be taken seriously as an actor (and as a human being), and yet many of the roles available to him are "ewok" or "elf". I'd probably find the fantasy genre a bit offensive, as well.

In the Shadowrun setting, practically all of the Awakened Races had a bone to pick with Fantasy's favorite Oxford Don.


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To expand what I've stated in my aside, I think the term "little person" implies that you're not normal. If you were, you'd be called a "person". Thus, the adjective "little" implies abnormality. "Dwarf" on the other hand doesn't imply anything of the sort. You can be a "dwarf" and also a "person".

It's the same with ethnicity. Morgan Freeman has stated that he doesn't believe there should be a black history month because it is divisive. It forces black people to think of themselves as "black people" rather than "people". There will always be racism, according to him, if we continue to see each other as different.

I cannot agree more.


Detect Magic wrote:
To expand what I've stated in my aside, I think the term "little person" implies that you're not normal. If you were, you'd be called a "person". Thus, the adjective "little" implies abnormality. "Dwarf" on the other hand doesn't imply anything of the sort. You can be a "dwarf" and also a "person".

It's not a perfect term, but the etymology of "dwarf" is from mythology. So I think it carries more unfortunate baggage with it than "little person".

Sovereign Court

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White Wyrm wrote:

Thanks for those who have taken the time to write thoughtful responses.

I think the main point of contention is that if someone is playing a character that is 4'5" or shorter, he or she is playing something other than a human. Although I don't know anyone in my personal life with achondroplasia, I can try to see it from their perspective and understand how it could feel degrading.

I think Trinite has it right;

Trinite wrote:
What would be interesting to me, perhaps, would be to build an actual human character with dwarfism in a setting that also has halflings, gnomes and dwarves, and explore the implications of people assuming that he's not a human based on his appearance.

Maybe there could be an alternate racial trait for humans to make them small?

I have played halfling and dwarf characters in the past and I did not bring this up to be the politically correct police. I hadn't given this a whole lot of thought until now and it costs nothing to try to see where other people are coming from.

I have played with a little person for a while. He played a half orc fighter while my character was a halfling rogue. The fighter kept picking on my rogue untill my character accused his of picking on him because of the size discrepancy. We looked at each other and burst out laughing.

You see, problem is that if most people with those disabilities don't find things such as halflings or gnomes offensive, why the hell would you?
I'm tired of political correctness. It has made everything offensive. It is ridiculous.
And if a guy with dwarfism finds Pathfinder halflings offensive, his problem is much bigger then just thinking that it mocks him in some way.
Anyway, i find that treating people with disabilities like they didn't possess them is the best way to behave around them. If you treat them differently because of that (without them asking, of course), you are focusing attention on said disability and making it more apparent.


firefly the great wrote:
It's not a perfect term, but the etymology of "dwarf" is from mythology. So I think it carries more unfortunate baggage with it than "little person".

I suppose it does carry some baggage, as you've said, and that is indeed unfortunate. However, I doubt most people are aware of the etymological history of the term.


Detect Magic wrote:
I can see why Peter finds it offensive. He wants to be taken seriously as an actor (and as a human being), and yet many of the roles available to him are "ewok" or "elf".

One cannot coach speed. Can one act large? (I ask because certain women seem able to act beautiful, even though they are, in my opinion, not. [Meryl Streep and Glenn Close spring to mind.])

Dinklage seems an accomplished actor. This seems a tempest in a teapot to me. Note that I'm not concerned over the teapot's size, but neither am I saying, "Tempest in a cargo hold," because certain words aren't appropriate to the role they must play in a sentence. Perhaps it's my own limitation of imagination, but ... I can't see him as Goliath, Conan, or any other person of a particular size. It certainly doesn't mean he's incompetent ... just, for certain roles ... ahem ... ill-equipped.

I think "little person" is largely in the eye of the beholder. Some find it descriptive, others demeaning.


I'd say that's the best approach, also, Hama. Still, I think we should be careful not to exclude people (whether actively or otherwise). It is a conversation worth being had.


Very true, Jaelithe.


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Hama wrote:
You see, problem is that if most people with those disabilities don't find things such as halflings or gnomes offensive, why the hell would you?

I think that, even when coming from outside of gaming, when someone expresses similar kinds of feelings as Peter Dinklage did that it is something one should at least consider. I wasn't implying that he speaks for everyone, and there's a difference between having to play roles he finds demeaning and what we do. I agree with you that we shouldn't be treating anyone differently, but I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to be inclusive.


I don't think Dinklage was saying he finds all halflings, dwarves, etc, offensive. He's saying that most depictions are shallow. I tend to agree. Last time I played a fantasy dwarf in Pathfinder another player asked me if he'd be Scottish or Russian. I didn't have either in mind, but there you are, and he wasn't really wrong. They're not typically given a lot of range.

Here's something I'd love to see, just as an experiment: Dinklage auditioning for The Hobbit, for the role of Bard. It'd be interesting to see the arguments against it. He's supposed to be taller? So make him taller. You can certainly do it, and it's not like a huge budget concern:-)


Wasn't the actor that portrayed Gimli in the Lord of the Rings films really tall?


J. Christopher Harris wrote:
Here's something I'd love to see, just as an experiment: Dinklage auditioning for The Hobbit, for the role of Bard. It'd be interesting to see the arguments against it. He's supposed to be taller? So make him taller. You can certainly do it, and it's not like a huge budget concern. :-)

That definitely speaks to my comments above about 'acting large,' JCH. It's an intriguing idea. They made Chris Evans puny, and believably, with relative ease for Captain America, after all.

If he were truly the most convincing in screen tests ... why not?


Detect Magic wrote:
firefly the great wrote:
It's not a perfect term, but the etymology of "dwarf" is from mythology. So I think it carries more unfortunate baggage with it than "little person".
I suppose it does carry some baggage, as you've said, and that is indeed unfortunate. However, I doubt most people are aware of the etymological history of the term.

It's probably not so much the mythological origins of the term "dwarf", but the historical usage as an insulting/condescending term. It's got baggage.

"Little person" doesn't.

The same is true of a lot of insulting terms for various minorities. There's nothing particularly offensive about the term, but if it's been used offensively long enough, it picks up connotations.


J. Christopher Harris wrote:

I don't think Dinklage was saying he finds all halflings, dwarves, etc, offensive. He's saying that most depictions are shallow.

But to be fair... it's not the dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings characters that are 'shallow'.

it's really most fiction in GENERAL. There is usually the typical hero, the typical wizard the typical rogue... All loosely based off Star Wars or Lord of the Rings...

It's one thing to say that 'Gosh.. I wish the short people in this 'genre' were more well rounded...' but what "I" wish... is that ALL the characters were more well rounded! ;)

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