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I'd actually say the incorporeal goes first, it would be checked on attack. DR wouldn't care about attack resolution, only being checked once damage resolution occurs.
I am not sure what the answer is but i am inclined to say DR first and incorporeal second, if you do it the other way around then you are going to have a monster who the PCs a lot of times can't do it any damage.
As I see it, incorporeal first, damage reduction second.
- Being incorporeal affects how much damage you take.
- Damage reduction lets you reduce the damage actually taken.
Or in other words, incorporeality affect the damage dealt to you, while DR affects the hp amount you actually loose when someone deals you damage.
I think HaraldKlak has it correct. Just think about fireball with improved evasion and fire resistence.
First, on a failed save, you would take half damage.
Then you would apply the fire resistence.
Then finally you would take what ever damge is left over.
If you did it the other way you would take more damage.
If you applied DR first, you would effectively have a DR of 5, not 10.
Damage reduction reduces the damage you take. It doesn't reduce damage you don't take.
If you apply the 50% damage rule for being incorporeal last, you are going to apply half of your DR to damage the creature was never going to take in the first place.
Also, doing incorporeal last penalizes ghost touch weapons. Instead of a creature effectively having DR5, a user of a ghost touch weapon is up against DR10 because the DR applies to all of his damage. A more effective weapon shouldn't be less effective (percentage-wise).
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Word of JJ is that it is applied after incorporeal - for what it's worth
Ouch. Seems like a pretty nifty defensive layer for some creatures (shadow demons, anyone?)
Word of JJ is that it is applied after incorporeal - for what it's worthOuch. Seems like a pretty nifty defensive layer for some creatures (shadow demons, anyone?)
Yeah, honestly I find it all pretty questionable. At high levels it isn't likely to be a problem, but at lower levels it's a killer.
Yeah, honestly I find it all pretty questionable. At high levels it isn't likely to be a problem, but at lower levels it's a killer.Word of JJ is that it is applied after incorporeal - for what it's worthOuch. Seems like a pretty nifty defensive layer for some creatures (shadow demons, anyone?)
Yea, shadow demons are incredibly nasty if you fight them too early. In my last campaign the only fight I had to intentionally hold back on due to a feeling that it was an unfair encounter was a fight involving a shadow demon. The only people in the party with weapons that could overcome the thing's DR got feared on the first round.
I think the end result is that being unprepared for an encounter with incorporeal creatures is very dangerous, which is how it should be. It's just something DMs should keep in mind when using these creatures in a fight. Also keep in mind, that while the creature has 50% damage reduction from it's ghostly nature and DR10 /good, it also lacks hp compared to other creature of it's level. If you happen to have a paladin in your party he will happily smite the evil ghosty and ignore his DR and bring him down in a few rounds. With a Cleric around you can cast ghostbane dirge and other spells to bring it down. Yes, an unprepared group can get rolled by a ghost, but one that has prepared can also rock some ghosts to the tune of Ghostbusters.
All true, but the question is how brutal it is supposed to be. If you can bypass either the DR or the incorporeality, the question is irrelevant.
If you can't, using the DR last approach makes them (much?) tougher than they were in 3.5.
Is that such a bad thing? I mean if you fight a golem with magic immunity in a party full of spell caster you're gonna have a bad time. If you fight a ghost in a party of unprepared or no spell casters you gonna have a bad time. I don't see this as a problem really. An option that usually exists in games is to run away and buy potions/scrolls that will help to solve your problems, though this is not always possible I think it usually is an option.
I guess my point is that the enemy is designed to force you to take advantage of it's weakness or the abilities that can negate its strengths. If you fight something that has fire vulnerability do you just ignore that and keep throwing ice at it even though it's probably immune? If you prepared only cold spells and no fire spells is the monster too challenging on its own or because you weren't prepared for such an encounter?
To me, the nail in the coffin that this is an unintentional change (and DR should apply first), is that you can't even crit an incorporeal for bonus damage.
Plus Shadow Demons have plenty of hp - they have a Con score, unlike most incorporeals.
Can anyone confirm that this interaction between DR and incorporeal nature was overlooked? I'm guessing probably not. I think the RAW way of dealing with this is incorporeal first and then DR. Whether this was the intention, or an oversight I think that's how it works. Ultimately, I prefer 50% reduction and damage reduction in that order over a 50% miss chance and damage reduction.
RAW you would check the special quality incorporeal first, it occurs in the combat resolution before damage is even considered. Any non magical attacks are ineffective, anything that is effective is 50% so (or 50% to land). Then once an attack lands (being reduced by 50% because we check earlier and this creature is incorporeal) you check DR as DR might not have any influence with the attack. If it does, you'd hope the character realizes it is time to switch things up (if they didn't already roll Know:XYZ to see what defenses the creature had) to combat the creature more effectively.
Think of in the context of a fireball.
You are in the area of a fireball. You roll your reflex save and beat the DC. This means you take half damage. You also happen to have fire resistance. This negates some portion of that half damage that you would have taken. It makes no sense to apply it to the original amount of damage and then reduce that by half. Incorporeal is essentially like being able to make a reflex save for half damage against all attacks.
Can anyone confirm that this interaction between DR and incorporeal nature was overlooked? I'm guessing probably not. I think the RAW way of dealing with this is incorporeal first and then DR. Whether this was the intention, or an oversight I think that's how it works. Ultimately, I prefer 50% reduction and damage reduction in that order over a 50% miss chance and damage reduction.Can't confirm anything about the intent, without a direct comment.
Unless you have more evidence than I've seen, I don't think there is a RAW order. Neither the DR or incorporeal sections make it clear. JJ has offered his opinion and that's the closest we have, but it isn't actually RAW.
My argument is that 50% miss chance and damage reduction is mathematically equivalent to damage reduction then 50% reduction and that should be assumed, since it's less of a change to the balance.
Not mathematically equivalent at all and the order does matter. Imagine a sword that hits for exactly 20 damage and for the sake of this argument you strike 10 times (as in, you roll high enough on the d20 to score a hit before calculating miss chance). With 50% miss and DR 10, you'll hit theoretically 5 out of 10 times for 10 damage doing 50 damage total. However, with 50% reduction and DR 10 (in that order), you'll hit 10 out of 10 times for zero damage doing zero damage total. Reverse the order and you'll hit 10 out of 10 times for 5 damage doing 50 damage.
When I GM, I do the 50% reduction and then apply DR. I also think very carefully before throwing incorporeal monsters like that at my players and tailor the encounter to them. Like with vampires, I try to telegraph or foreshadow encounters like that so that they make (or fail to make) intelligent decisions before getting in over their heads. I've killed players (my own wife's PC, actually) with incorporeal undead and my players fear them because the monsters that those stats represent are supposed to be truly scary. The stuff of nightmares.
Unless you have more evidence than I've seen, I don't think there is a RAW order. Neither the DR or incorporeal sections make it clear. JJ has offered his opinion and that's the closest we have, but it isn't actually RAW.
Hmm... In 3.x, there was a comment in the FAQs stating that defensive abilities are always applied in the most beneficial order for the affected creature.
Unless PF has deliberately nixed that stance, I see no reason to assume any change.
You mean the incorporeal write up where it is described? And the combat section where the steps of combat are detailed and order of resolution is explained? Or do you have some quote showing you can apply defenses in an order of your own choosing beyond the general rules provided in the CRB?
DR is a separate situational ability. All effective attacks will be reduced by incorporeal, only some of the attacks will be influenced by DR. If DR wasn't part of the discussion would you argue that the incorporeal creature doesn't have 50% of the damage applied?
Until combat attacks resolve DR never comes into play. Incorporeal is always in play, by description it is being taken into consideration from the attack step (to see if the attack is effective). Let's say the incorporeal creature has DR 5/blunt. Combat occurs, incorporeal creature gets hit with a magic mace. We know all damage is cut by 50% by virtue of incorporeal, so let's make it an easy number, 10 damage. That gets reduced to 5 damage. Now that number gets applied to the creature as it bypasses DR. Simple enough right?
Now what changes the above when an attack is made with a non blunt weapon? What special rules interaction are you saying occurs to make the incorporeal quality not 'do anything' until you check for a specific type of DR which the creature may or may not have? Heck what sense does it even make to do that?
The simplest way I can try to explain it (non RAW) is, incorporeal is always on, always consistently applied. DR is like an AoO, it interrupts the damage resolution step and possibly does something. It's an 'order of operations' situation. Look up some of the threads regarding energy resistances and vulnerability to cold/fire/etc. It's pretty much the exact same situation.
None of them are mathematically identical
10 hits of 30 damage vs 50% miss chance and DR 10 (5 hits of 15 each total 75)
10 hits of 30 damage vs DR10 with 50% reduction after (10 hits of 10 damage total 100)
10 hits of 30 damage vs 50% reduction then DR 10 after (10 hits of 5 damage total 25)
The Current expectation is the 50% reduction first and then the DR after
You math is flawed.
First: 10 hits of 30 damage vs 50% miss chance and DR 10 (5 hits of 20 each total 100)
50% miss chance means 5 of the 10 attacks miss. So 5 attacks get through. DR 10 reduces the 30 damage to 20. 5 attacks x 20 damage = 100 damage.
Second: 10 hits of 30 damage vs DR10 with 50% reduction after
DR 10 reduces the 30 damage to 20. 20 damage reduced by half is 10 damage. 10 attacks x 10 damage = 100 damage
Third: 10 hits of 30 damage vs 50% reduction then DR 10 after
30 damage with a 50% reduction is 15 damage. Minus the 10 DR, leaves 5 damage. 10 attacks x 5 damage is 50 damage.
Unfortunately we don't have a PFRPG FAQ to refer to. At this point I can just say it worked in the most advantageous order for the creature as per the 3.5 FAQ and it would seem to still be that way from the quote we have from JJ.
I would add my two CP to say that thematically it makes more sense to do Incorporeal first as 50% reduction is from the creature not having a physical body and taking only some damage from the select things that do affect it. Of the two types of damage reduction "Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly" only the first makes any sense based on what Incorporeal is and is the type generally associated with DR/Magic. Why would it be healing up from the part of damage that shouldn't have even hurt it as it would have effectively passed through?
If you gave the incorporeal a "ghost touch" ring of resistance fire 10 and shot a fireball at it how do you expect to apply the damage?
I htink the answer is obvious as reduce by 50% and than apply fire resistance. It's similar to DR. I can't articulate why this is so, but just because you think it makes a monster too hard doesn't mean that it's not supposed to be that way.